Creekmore on Retreats and Relocation
For years preppers have been asking the question; where is the “perfect” survival retreat area? Many words have been written about this subject by survival authors such as Mel Tappan
But the truth is there isn’t any “perfect” location, some places are better than others, with some being much better. But; finding the “ideal location” that is free of any possible danger, is a futile effort.
You’re probably better off staying where you are now. Packing up, quitting your job, yanking the children out of school, leaving relatives and everything you know behind to move to a “safer location”, may not be the best answer.
Getting settled and becoming one with the community takes time, a luxury I don’t think we have at this point. You will be an outsider in a strange place, which is not a good position to be in now or after tshtf.
And let’s not forget the stress that comes with making such a move. Just because you’re ready to move across the country doesn’t mean your wife / husband and children will be.
My home / retreat is located in the same area where I’ve lived most of my life, a small town in the Southern United States. It isn’t perfect, nothing is; but I know the area and people well.
The county where I live has a population of about 22,000 with a population density of 40 people per square mile according to the latest census.
The closest town from where I live (I live about four miles outside town) has 911 people … Most of the county is covered in forest, with the bulk of the population living in several small towns within the county.
While this may not be a perfect set up, it is what I have. I know the area well, my family lives close by, and I know the people. I think, I’m better off staying here and working with what I have.
You’ll need to look at your circumstances, needs and location and plan accordingly.
No one has all the answers or can make the final decision for you – except you. Should you move to another location just because some preparedness “expert” said you should? I don’t think so.
Sure if I lived in San Francisco, New York City or some other such God forsaken sinkhole, I would do everything in my power to get out as quickly as possible. I’m sure some will survive even in those areas, but I would not want to live in such a place under normal conditions let along after a disaster.
The point that I am trying to make is this – unless you locate near one of the major population areas, you maybe better off staying where you are, and working within your present situation.What do you think?
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February 18th, 2010 at 5:29 PM
I think you make a lot of good sense.
I think that something a lot of preppers overlook is quality of life. By that I mean live the life you really want to live. For some folks, like you, living in the boonies, living off the land, etc. is the way to go. For others, living such an isolated a life would be sheer misery. None of us knows what the future holds – a total meltdown may not come for 50 years, or it could come next year. Living an hour from a neighbor in an isolated area of Idaho is not my idea of living life. A small farm near a small town IS my idea of a great life. So, I say do what feels right to you!
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February 18th, 2010 at 6:10 PM
I couldn't agree more. I live approximately 50 minutes east of a moderately large city that has been desimated by the decline in the auto industry and an hour west of the Canadian border. I am pretty well isolated with my closest neighbor being about a half mile away and my house sits 650 feet off a dirt road surrounded by farm fields. Since moving here 10 years ago my plan has always been to stay put and try to ride out any SHTF scenario with my food stocks, garden, orchard, and livestock. My property holds deer, turkey, pheasant, rabbit, and squirrel in good numbers and I have ample hunting ammo. I may not be in the "best" or "ideal" location but I plan to make the best of what I have.
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February 18th, 2010 at 6:56 PM
I live in the south, and I'm within 1hr of three 300,000+ metropolitan areas.
By and large, the people here are great. The major metropolitan areas, not as much – it really depends on which side of the city you're in.
I choose to stay here because I am close to family. I know this 4 county area like the back of my hand, and I know the majority of the people here. I couldn't imagine living anywhere else, nor would I want to. I'm comfortable in my bubble.
A lot of my bug-in plan revolves around anticipating what the golden hoarde will do. My future homesite (within 15mi of here) is much better tactically, as it is pretty inconvenient to reach. I think the majority of the hoarde will pass by my current location due to the lay of the major highways – that takes care of the extremely clueless. The smarter bug-out group will head away from my area due to more resources available in other directions. I'll just have to see what happens and be ready to take action.
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February 18th, 2010 at 8:02 PM
I agree with you. I live about 35 miles outside of New York City and have seen this area over-develop tremoundously over the past 25 years, so much so that I can't wait to make my move west of the Missouri River. I am presently checking out areas in ID, Utah, Wyoming and Washington hoping to find a "comfortable" settlement somewhere within 1.5 hours of a major city and major highway. I know the difficulties that I will encounter in a small community being an "outsider" – especially from New York (a bastion of liberalism). Unlike most New Yorker's I'm an independent conservative/ possibly Libertarian that believes in the our Constitution and 2nd amendment, and I want to exercise my freedoms in a more self-sufficient lifestyle. I hope and pray that I can find a settlement in a community that offers me some "middle ground" of comfort, seclusion and friendly people. I recommend to anyone that is considering a move to a rural location to read Ragnar Benson's "Starting a New Life In Rural America." Just reading his 21 things you need to know before you make your move was somewhat of a shocker, and has given me some second thoughts about moving to a rural location. However when TSHTF I don't want to be anywhere near New York City or its nearby subburbs when the zombies start getting hungry and thirtsy. It will be a nightmare that even a well prepared prepper probably would not survive.
I pray that I can "get out of Dodge" (or in this case the NY City area) in time. I am retired now so work or kids are not a problem. I have friend who lives in nearby New Jersey who are close to retiring also, and looking to get out of that liberal state also. Wish us luck.
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February 18th, 2010 at 8:18 PM
I think you better start proofreading your bolg posts.
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February 18th, 2010 at 8:59 PM
I better start proofreading my comments. (Blog not bolg)
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February 18th, 2010 at 9:00 PM
Hi – I agree you may be better off just staying where you are. As you said there is no perfect place just trade-offs to make and it really depends on the event/scenario you are preparing for and the duration. The only thing I can add is that no matter where your retreat location is, going this alone is not the best solution. You need a community of like minded individuals whether that is family, friends, or neighbors to get though the long haul.
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February 18th, 2010 at 9:29 PM
San Francisco would probably just have one big Gay Pride Parade in the event of a SHTF scenario. The newly established Lesbian Mullet Biker Gang would then take over the city and then turn the remaining uhhh…men (the kind that love to wear pink laced boas) into their own personal footstools.
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February 18th, 2010 at 11:48 PM
Didn't any of you folks watch the tv show "The Day After", where missiles destroyed the cities and all the city folks went to the rural areas? When a man came home to his farm, he said to some squatters: "This is my farm" and a guy shot and killed him. Where do you think millions of city folk would go? You can't hold them all off. And when the guys with machine guns show up, then what? They'll get rid of all the country folk, then turn on each other. The answer is not running & hiding. The zombies can find you just as easy in rural areas as in the cities — don't forget, some zombies are red necks. What's the answer? Maybe work together as human beings to try and fix things. Being prepared is good. Being paranoid is not.
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February 18th, 2010 at 11:52 PM
I live in WV. The town here is about 33,000 including the surrounding area. 30 min east is the typical Appalachian rural communities that are left today. Mostly poor, run down, and full of young men of no account and girls popping out kids for a paycheck from the state. In-between that there are still some good people. My problem is I just moved back in 2001 I haven’t lived here since 1976 ye ha. My personnel network is limited the my co workers. I’m an Army guy got out in 96 due to an injury I’m a bit hard assed to be honest for a lot of people. I guess what I’m trying to say is you need a network of people you can call on in hard times and without that wherever you are you better have your crap wired tight. Few (none) of us seem to have the money to live completely independently so we have to work meet our responsibility’s to our family’s. Hell I don’t know how to survive old age that gets closer and more real every year let alone make it after TSHTF.
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February 19th, 2010 at 12:08 AM
Oh, stop worrying! Everything will be fine! If the SHTF, there will be plenty of Constitution-loving, liberty-protecting, reasonable, intelligent jack-booted thugs to help and protect you and yours. Remember, their motto is "to serve and protect" and they ALL take it very seriously. Why, there will even be helpful government employees and soldiers to assist you! They work FOR you, and are your civil servants, remember. And if that isn't enough, I hear some nice foreign soldiers have volunteered to lend a hand and help us over any rough spots. Since they may not speak English, just remember to approach them with a Hershey bar and a tiny American flag in your outstretched, welcoming hands and everything will be fine. Oh, and get your flu shot! The lines may be longer after TEOTWAWKI. I hope I've put your minds at ease, because thinking that the government is out for its own survival and won't give a damn about its citizens is counterproductive and just plain bad! I've got to go now- it's time for my meds! Bye!
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February 19th, 2010 at 12:45 AM
Unfortunately, I live much to close to one of those god forsaken sinkholes. I live just outside of Detroit, and I hate it. I would love nothing more than to move away from this madhouse, however, the real estate market says that I won't be able to sell my house without taking a hit. So, unless I win the lottery, it is here I have to make my stand.
I'm sure I'm not the only one who lives so close to a major population of thugs, but if you are in my shoes, then all you can do is devise several defensive strategies. I have looked at my property from the outside and thought of ways that I would assault my own house. I highly doubt that anyone coming to loot my property will have any kind of training, most of these societal rejects still think you can accurately fire a handgun while holding it sideways.
Anyway, I'm rambling, if you don't have the means to leave where you are to a more desirable location, then make sure you have more than one well thought out plan to defend your property. Good luck to you all…….
Dean in Mich..
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February 19th, 2010 at 1:17 AM
The only problem I see with moving away from a large city is your job. Current IT and office people have a tough time finding work in small communities. I feel for them and don't know the answer. As for me I'll probably stay put because I live 7 miles from a small city(pop 100,000) and it is a conservative area. I'm in an area with 36 houses on 1 acre wooded lots with many people that will shoot, and can hit what they aim at. This will be a tough area for anyone after TSHTF that is looking for trouble.
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February 19th, 2010 at 3:40 AM
Crazy Hare – LOL
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Nice post I always like to read do what you think is best for you, most people out there are telling other what they must do, I like to tell people "learn from all but make your own"
Nate
SurvivalBound.com
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February 19th, 2010 at 3:49 AM
Well I will offer a little bit different perspective. I lived in the middle of suburbia in a medium sized town (100,000) and that town sits outside of the largest town in my state. My wife and I were homeowners (mortgage holders) and I really began to get worried about what would happen in that area when things get really bad. We had really no way of taking care of ourselves in this environment for any prolonged period of time. I like most of you can't afford the five year supply of freeze dried food and there was no room for animals or gardening. I simply decided that when you boiled everything down to is simplest form, there was NOTHING more important than providing for and protecting my family to the best of my abilities. Nothing. So we pulled up and left. We moved far outside of town and now rent a small place with some property that will sustain animals, a large garden, and is ample distance from major population areas. My commute is now substantial and it costs me time with my family as well as a much larger portion of my check going to fuel. I can honestly say its the best thing I have ever done. Regardless of the future problems, this was the choice for us. I now have the pleasure of watching my young children run through empty fields on the property and play in the front yard with the dogs. It just so happens that our decision to provide the best chance for our future survival also brought present happiness via a simpler lifestyle and different priorities. I realize that this is not a choice most are willing to make. Furthermore, if I was a single guy without a family, I'm fairly certain I would have just bought a couple cases of MRE's and a whole bunch more guns and ammo. Everyone is different. Everyone's situation is different. Some are willing to take risks in life and others are not. I don't think what I have done is any better or smarter than anyone else, it just works for us. I absolutely guarantee that when TSHTF for real, there will be people that have all the preperations in the world that will die. There will also be people in major cities that have nothing in the way of preps that will survive. Your location, food storage, guns, etc.. all just help to stack the odds in your favor. Things don't make you a survivor, that comes from within.
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February 19th, 2010 at 4:26 AM
Why is it of late that so many anonymous geniuses -who seem to believe that Uncle Sugar and his bureaucratic minions have been placed on God's green earth to fix all their problems and pay all their debts- feel the irresistible compulsion to roll their virtual ar$es up to a prepper's blog and insist that preppers, in essence, not prep?
…As if by discussing preparedness we must auto-magically need be transformed -in their untouchably superior and willfully unprepared minds- into paranoid and fearfully dangerous people instead of the responsible and courageous individuals preppers aspire to be or already are?
Are the blissers incapable of basic math? Do they even know what trillions represent? Have they not know real want or real suffering? Have they no history? Grandparents?
Are they unaware that the act of preparing for the unexpected pitfalls of existence and the intellectual exploration of possible means of taking responsibility for one's actions and state of being is the antithesis of fear?
Are they so unaware that they cannot conceive that the fear they smell is pretty transparently their own?
Why can't they seem to soberly assess their relative positions on the continuum of [un]preparedness – despite the facts of post-disaster life (and death) played out, documented, and piped into their eyeballs on their HDTeeVees everyday? Do they think themselves especially immune to reality, consequence, human nature, or common sense?
So many questions…
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February 19th, 2010 at 4:39 AM
Right on Spudfarmer—-very well said. Like MD, I live in a southern state, but in a very urban area. For short-term disasters and breakdowns I plan to stay put since this is my home and where I work. For the big collapse when TSHTF I plan to bugout to the old family homestead about 170 miles away. Which brings me to the reason for writing this. If a person in an urban location deems it necessary to bugout and travel to a rural area for safety, he/she needs to make that decision rather quickly in a crisis situation. This should be done within the first 24hrs while everyone else is in a state of shock and before the highways get completely clogged. For that reason, I've decided that the best form of transportation out of an urban area will be a dual purpose mototcycle (just hit the trails if the roads are jammed.) I've chosen the Kawasaki KLR as my bugout platform and would highly recommend it to
you other urbanites. After all, if the US Marines like it then it must be good. A final recommendation I'd like to make to anyone who wants to travel lightly is to purchase (or make) a small alcohol stove. You know, the kind made from soda pop cans. I found one on Ebay for $12 that works fantastic. It can heat coffee or food and also works as a great hand/foot warmer during the cold.
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February 19th, 2010 at 4:59 AM
Ultimately, home is where the hearth your kith and kin care enough to fight to preserve is.
For various reasons some homes are more viable than others, but as with most things in life, the human animal thrives when we are as honestly committed and able to have a hand in maximizing our state of being as we can be. It basically boils down to water, food, shelter, and safety for; family, self, community, and culture.
For most of human history making it all work has never been an easy thing for anyone but the strongest and the anointed, yet it has become easy enough for most of us that many have lost sight of the basics…Endangering all around them.
That's what I admire about those who are conscious enough of the basics of what it is to be a human that they would aspire to be prepared in a community of prepared people.
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February 19th, 2010 at 5:16 AM
Good post M.D. and once again the voice of reason in a chamber of echoes. Sound survival advice and most importantly realistic ideas we can actually do not pie in the sky move to Idaho dreams that will never happen for most of us.
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February 19th, 2010 at 2:50 PM
I don't know if you stated this before but I cannot emphasize this point enough, in fact you should write an article about it – Passports.
Obtaining passports gives you additional escape options & are good for 10 years. IF the crap hits the fan, getting a passport will be practically impossible.
We have had them for many years & keep them in the gun safe along with other valuable items.
As far as proof reading, I totally agree. You make some basic grammatical errors & misspell or misuse word. Try writing in MS Word, do a spell/grammar check then copy and paste to your page. That may help as a start.
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February 19th, 2010 at 4:05 PM
To Dr ML and others, I could care less if there's a spelling error or a grammatical error from M.D. This isn't school and his ideas come thru loud and clear. Im not politically correct and neither is M.D. Get off it and get on with it.
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February 19th, 2010 at 4:40 PM
A few posts back there was one regarding bugging out with a family. I'm glad this was posted becuase I have a family of four which is hard enough getting prepped to go to the mall, let alone bugging out. In short, bugging out will be our last resort. There is too much to be prepared & coordinated for a family bugout, so we will harden our home.
We live in a small, suburban town with a population of over 3500. A major interstate runs within 3 miles of our home & we're about 1 hour away from both NYC & Philadelphia (by car). We have farms, rivers, streams, woods & reservoirs all within walking distance from our home. Our police, fire & rescue personnel are our neighbors & friends, not faceless jack-booted zombies. We'll all be in the same boat once TSHTF.
With the last addition of a boxwood stove, we can now live isolated & without utilities for six months: Food, water & heat. Our plan is to move our living quarters to our finished walk-out basement. This will conserve heat & increase security (insulated concrete walls, shuttered windows & security doors).
However, in the event that our home is threatened, we still have a bugout plan. Everyone has a BOB with a 3 day supply of food & water & our travel trailer is 1 hour away by car, 2 hours away by ATV & 18 hours away by foot. I have planned three different routes using either major highways, back roads or obscure paths (railroad right of way, hiking trails & utility easements). We can live in our travel trailer in the Pocono mountains for at least 1 month off the grid before we run out of either stored food or propane. Then we will have to hunt, fish, farm, forage, steal or beg.
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February 19th, 2010 at 5:00 PM
MD's occasional typos are a million times more tolerable than the smug religious pontifications of another blogger's personal Armageddon pipe dreams. MD is real, not a daydreamer.
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February 19th, 2010 at 6:15 PM
You are better off at where you live, because any fixed position can be compromised.
Live where you want to live and enjoy life.
But prepare for that dark cold day if/when it all goes to hell.
I prep for two scenarios;
Honker down and bug out, by bug out I mean on the move majority of the time, travel lite and compact. Kinda like field combat.
All fixed positions have been or will be compromised.
Remember what General George Patton Jr said;
"Fixed fortifications are monuments to the stupidity of man."
"Make your plans to fit the circumstances."
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February 19th, 2010 at 7:30 PM
STAYING PUT IS MY FIRST CHOICE BUT HAVING A WIFE WITH A HURT BACK MAKES RUNNING NOT MY FIRST CHOICE,BUT IF WE WERE OVERRAN AND SURVIVED THEN WHAT EVER THE SITUATION WE WOULD ADAPT TO THE BEST OUR ABILITIES.FROM JAY IN NC
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February 19th, 2010 at 8:04 PM
I have lived in the town I am living in for around 20 years and know quite a few people but they are not all that close so moving would not, in any way, affect my survival as to having help when needed, etc. because, generally, many people are those that will help all others whether or not they know them as experience has shown me and this fact is still going strong so I do not feel that moving to another location inside or outside of my state would be such an ordeal. I look at life and always have that moving can be an adventure and a great learning experience and that I should never discount my surroundings because I never know what I will find, who I will meet, what I will do, what new things I will learn and so forth. Moving is a big ordeal but when a mentality of a fresh start is incorporated it really helps. Also, being that the sh*t has not hit the fan and that it may not for a year or so, why wait to get settled to a new location providing that your property is paid off or close to it, you get out there and make friends if you can, you do not owe for credit cards or other debts, your car is paid for and the tank is full and you have several 255 gallon water tanks constantly filled with water in your yard and plenty of food in stock, rotated and ready to go. If you do not have your debts paid off, especially your home, and your bank account does not have enough money to cover a few years taxes, then when the SHTF you may find your self without a home and may need to seek a place just to survive which may in fact be the woods. The bible says that there is going to come a time when no man can work so that is something to take into consideration. In other words, there will not be any work. For example, at this time our government is trying to make it more difficult for even small business owners to remain in business by trying to implement laws that make the employees owners in that business which is not good for smaller businesses, high taxes and a whole lot of other things that will be very detrimental to our society nationwide and should they implement laws worse than those mentioned above, which they are following in the footsteps of other governments, then having or getting a job may not exist. If taxes get too high, then how will one buy food, pay rent, taxes, etc. There are things going on in which our country could be collapsed at any time and we need to be prepared, no matter whether we stay or we go. If the healthcare bill goes through, I have heard reporters stating and some physicians also that doctors would leave this country and go where the money is, leaving many thousands without any form of treatment. Anyone prepared with medical skills? I hope to be ready should the time ever actually manifest itself and be a doctor, able to not only treat homeopathically but also in the line of wounds care and treating other various injuries. I still have to study a few more areas and with the knowledge I currently do have and what I will add to that very soon combined with quite a bit of real-life experience, my medical skills will be complete. I may be lucky enough to be able to trade natural medicine for food, water, soap, wood, tools, etc. When it comes to desperation, most will cave in and do whatever they have to which may be beneficial for all of us which possess life-saving or other necessary skills.
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February 19th, 2010 at 8:36 PM
Hey Patton you're 35 mi from NYC .I happen to be about 50 mi from NYC. Good to know there are survivalists in my area.
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February 19th, 2010 at 10:40 PM
I'm in Florida, which is one of the over-populated states that everyone thinks of as a terrible place to be when SHTF.
However, every place has it's issues and problems. This is why I think Florida is a good place for SHTF.
- Florida has a 12 month growing season and lots of water for crops.
- Agriculture is the #2 money maker (after Tourism) and phosphates (for fertilizer) is #3. Florida should be a good food producer even after SHTF.
- If a Nuclear EMP strike would hit Washington or New York, Florida would be on the very edge of the EMP's effectiveness and should hardly be affected at all. Ditto with a solar EMP because we're so far South.
- Most of the West Coast of Florida is not downwind from any Nuclear power plants or high priority nuclear targets. You can't say that about any other state East of the Mississippi or in the Northern Plains states or most of the Western or Pacific states.
- Even though Florida currently has a high population, we are a large state geographically and a large percentage of the population is elderly. Within a couple of months after SHTF most of the elderly, and people who rely on regular medication won't be here any more. Sad, but true – just keeping it real.
- Florida has the second largest coastline in the states (behind Alaska) and produces a lot of seafood.
- Miami will self-destruct in a real SHTF situation. They are hemmed in by the Atlantic on the East, the Glades on the West, and no where to go on the South. If a few enterprising crackers or seminoles blow a couple of bridges on the few roads through the Everglades, Miami only has one way to go – North through Fort Lauderdale, Boca Raton, West Palm Beach. Sorry for them, but by the time they fight through all the rich people, there won't be many Miami people left.
- Florida still has un-tapped reserves of Oil off the west coast and lots of sunshine to power large developing solar energy fields. It's a good place for using solar panels for your home also.
- Florida has a lot of the sea ports and established trading partners in the Caribean, Central, and South America. We would get supplies a lot faster than if we lived in Nebraska.
- With the Navel bases and Air Force bases, we would have some military protection from foreign entities even if the rest of the U.S. was EMP'd or covered with volcanic ash from Yellowstone.
- Florida is so far South, if there is an event that causes a massive winterization of the planet, Florida will be one of the warmest places in the U.S. Events like Nuclear War/Nuclear Winter, meteor strike, super-volcano, ice-age, etc.
- Florida is pro-gun, pretty conservative (except Miami), and a non-union state.
- If the Mutant Zombie Bikers got to be too bad, there are so many swamps, creeks, and rivers that if you blew a couple of bridges here or there, you could set up some good defensive perimeters.
- The only real negative I can find with Florida is that since it is relatively low lying, a super-tsunami could wash over it, but the only thing that would create that large of a tsunami would be a huge meteor like the one that killed the dinosours and then the whole planet would be in trouble.
So there you have it, I think most of Florida looks pretty good as a prepping location and could succeed even as a seperate country if we had to go our own way. I just wouldn't live in the SouthEast corner around Miami, cause then you probably won't make it.
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February 19th, 2010 at 11:17 PM
Like Dean in Michigan, I am in the same geographic area with the same economic reality of the housing market/realestate market.
I do find that recently many anonymous posts are simply attacks on this site and those who post/prep.
Reality of the public domain I guess.
I have no doubt that as the Titanic was going down there were passengers with water around their ankles shouting "the Captian says it's just a leak, we have nothing to worry about"! and proceeded to slip beneath the waves to a watery death wondering how a leak could get so bad.
I have learned not to doubt my senses ( Global warming? really!?!) nor to doubt mans capacity for evil, vile actions in times of normal circumstances ( thanks to the internet and digital cameras, and the desire on mans part to document those deeds) and know that you can multiply that number by 1000 in times of adversity.
We all walk different paths, only time will tell if those paths meet at the same place at the far end. If that is the case, no one is hurt and some of us have a reserve of food and skills, if however, like many here believe those paths do lead to different destinations, (again) only time will tell which path was the more prudent choice.
Not that any of you care, but I choose the "Prepare for the worst and hope for the best" path rather than the "Everything is going to be O.K. and if not Kroger's is just down the street" path.
off topic, I know. sorry for the rant.
Jerry in MI
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February 20th, 2010 at 12:29 PM
Funny that both "proofreading" critics made typos/grammatical errors in their own criticism of others. Check your own post before criticizing others.
DR. ML said:
"…You make some basic grammatical errors & misspell or misuse word…"
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February 26th, 2010 at 8:15 PM
A better choice for checking out populations in metro areas would be this spreadsheet: http://www.census.gov/popest/metro/tables/2007/CBSA-EST2007-01.xls. Some areas have several cities brushing up against each other without a over-arching city government. This spreadsheet accounts for those too.
Kansas City, MO is a good example, the census of that individual city is only 500K, which puts it way down in that top 50 list. This is msleading because the whole metro area of Kansas City, KS+ Kansas City, MO and all the close suburbs have population of about 2.2Mil.
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May 27th, 2010 at 9:11 PM
I plan on bugging in myself. The only thing that worries me is the fact that I work 63 miles from home.So I am working on a couple of bobs to get me back home and Am preparing my home for hard times.I am in northern California. Hopefully I am too far north if Sanfransisco gets nuked or dirtybombed.Poeple who grade on spelling are normaly missing the point. Axelsteve
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