Conflicted Tuesday

conflicted 300x140 Conflicted Tuesday

We have worked out an exclusive deal with the publishers of the survival card game “Conflicted” where we will be posting one question per week from the deck for open discussion here on TheSurvivalistBlog.net.

You can buy your own Conflicted Deck here and play it with your friends and family…

Okay here we go…

Your son or daughter died because someone who had a lot of food didn’t want to share. they refused every attempt to barter with you, and you feel they did it out of selfish greed more than anything. Would you plot revenge against them? Or do they have the right to do as they please with their resources?

Looking forward to the discussion in the comments below…

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Comments

  1. Nemoseto says:

    I would not plot revenge, it was my responcibility to see that food was on the table, cattail roots and minnow soup, or a couple rats caught in bucket traps are better than starvation. if I couldn’t keep enough food on the table then I am not fit to take care of others and would be better off joining them. honestly I find it impossible to believe my kids died of hunger and I survived, if food was that scarce I would not eat anything and put all my effort to feeding them, I would have dropped before they did.

    • I do agree with you Nemoseto, But you must also still keep your health up because if you die then there chance of survival drops quickly as well. You have to find a balance. As well I have other skills for foraging etc. so I would not have to base anything on barter or other people to keep me and my family fed.

    • axelsteve says:

      well my kids are grown men and could not only fend for themselves they can protect themselves.My younger son is the one with the 45 auto and the opinion of how weak men are these days.

    • Exactly, Nemoseto: my children died because of my actions, not those from whom I was begging. Any fault lies upon my shoulders. To say otherwise is denying the responsibility of being a parent. I was not working hard enough, was not thinking enough, was not… you get the idea.

    • Thats an honorable point of view, which I also share. However, the hordes of EBT card holders who blame everyone else for their demise but themselves will think otherwise….better get ready folks!

      Keep an eye on the Ukraine vote on the 16th, that may be the spark of WW3.

    • +1

  2. recoveringidiot says:

    Not sure what I might do for my loved ones. I’d like to think I would be above stealing but say for instance another person/group takes your things and leaves you alive but with nothing to feed your family with, what do you do? I can find and eat things most folks would just walk by but those folks that walk by that ditch with crawfish and muskrats will probably take your muskrat stew if they can.
    Revenge? Nope, not me. Now on the other hand if aggression from said person is involved they might want to check six often.

  3. Backwoods Prepper says:

    If my daughters die of starvation I have failed as a father. I would not plot revenge unless he was responsible for all of the food in the area to be taken away or kept from being gotten in the first place. If that’s the case revenge would be in order. Some torture too. But if he had the intuition to prep and I did not, that’s my fault.

  4. Black Rose says:

    My first reaction would be anger and mean thoughts would cross my mind, such as I hope they lose all the food, but I would not harm them. I’m just not that type of person. Why waste my energy on plotting revenge when I should be focused on gathering food.

    I would be more angry at myself for letting our family get to that point due to lack of being prepared.

    I do feel that a lot of people would plot revenge ( the non prepper welfare population) as a large portion of society does feel they should be taken care of

    • Urbancitygirl says:

      Agree Black Rose,
      I am stymied at the grocery store on how often I see behavior of entitlement and just a lot of attitude. It’s refreshing when encountering someone who is a tad ashamed (and hopefully, will be short lived).

  5. I would not have allowed it to get to the point where one of my children starves to death in the first place so this one is a mute point. No further discussion is needed.

    • Yes, you can control absolutely everything that happens in your future right? No outside forces can cause you to ever be in this situation?

      • Alex,
        I can’t control, but I can plan and stockpile resources and skills. Basic food and shelter at a minimum should be within reach of everyone who really wants it.

  6. Per the scenario, it depends. Do I have another child? If I don’t, that man and everyone he loves is dead. If I do, then I’d have to think of them first.
    But in reality, it would never come down to revenge. I agree with Nemoseto, I would be giving the remaining scraps of food to my kids if it came down to it. And, if it came down to the last scraps and this group refuses to share, before my kids grew weak from starvation, I would attack this group with every bit of ammo and strength I had. It wouldn’t be about revenge, it would be about my kids surviving. When it comes to my kids living, I don’t care what I have to do … I will lie, cheat, steal, and kill my neighbor in his sleep. When it comes to a SHTF scenario, I will do my best to maintain my integrity and values, but if it comes down to me and my family surviving or starving while the guy across the street eats prime rib, I will slit his throat in a heartbeat. I won’t tell my family where I found the food, I will continue to raise my kids with values (I’m not going to teach them to rob and kill people), but I’m not going to sit back and watch them die.

    • I like the honesty! We all want to think we wont sink to the lowest levels, but we and our children are not starving right now either! 600 years ago it was not called murder and robbery it was called conquest, and quite frankly if it was not for conquest there would not be a white face on this continent.

    • Rider of Rohan says:

      Let’s say the guy across the street is eating rice and beans, not prime rib, which is way more the likely scenario. Would you still feel justified in killing them?

      And to be honest, people who have your mindset are exactly why I’m armed. It’s good that you put that out there for people to see, because it ain’t going to be pretty, that’s for sure.

    • Shades of Green says:

      I am with RofR,
      You could use your energy collecting pine needles and making an herbal tea with vitamins in it and forage for wild edibles. It is not your neighbors responsibility to provide for you or anyone else. Glad to know where you stand so I can be better prepared when someone like you comes a calling.

    • Todd

      Excellent post. Understand – this is the way everyone who has not prepped will feel:

      “…it would be about my kids surviving. When it comes to my kids living… I will lie, cheat, steal, and kill my neighbor in his sleep.”

      I know many of you are Christians, and think of charity to others, but can you afford to continue to provide for them indefinitely? By providing charity packs, you are showing them you have more than enough. The charity pack will not last forever. They will be back. What happens when your charity packs run out?

      Remember the story of Noah. For a hundred years he warned the people TEOTWAWKI was coming. They got tired of hearing it, and started mocking him. Then GOD closed up the ark and the rains came down. Did Noah throw down lifelines? NO! God had closed up the ark and they had been warned. Do you think God is not in control? Is it your right to disobey the will of the One and throw down lifelines? Get your emotions out of the way and think it through.

      • country vet says:

        Good thought on the charity bags! Will have to reconsider that option

      • Michele;
        Spot on! Thank you for putting in such elegant terms.

      • patientmomma says:

        When I read the scenarios I have to step back and think about them because there is a difference in our lives now and what our lives are going to be come. Prices are rising every day, things are less available, freedoms are being secretly taken away, TPTB are tearing apart the American society. I am less trusting today than I was last week and more worried about how I am going to implement plans b and c if necessary. How do I transition from plan a to b to c? Never thought I might need a plan d, but now I think I might.

        People around us do not think the way the Wolf Pack thinks. We hold ourselves responsible for our actions or lack of actions. We try to educate ourselves and prepare for what the future holds so our families will survive. Many folks think they can hunker down with their family, neighbors and supplies and survive in a commune type environment. Others do not think that way. Every day the news is filled with inhuman and cruel acts of people. “They” will not hesitate to kill us if they think they can. TPTB will not leave us alone; they will hunt down Patriots and Christians to attack and persecuted us. We have to change our perspective and mentally prepare, while still maintaining our humanity and religion.

    • I agree with Todd on the whole…..but want to add. I feel I am prepared fairly well and certainly my plan is to be a mouse, not a lion. I will avoid trouble and contact with others during a SHTF situation to the best of my ability. BUT, when my family and loved ones are in need, and I have ran out of other resources….Well, I will do whatever I need to do to ensure their survival and if I must kill…..I WILL KILL. Anybody who says different is just a liar or a fool who will not last a month, if that long.

      • Agreed, Gary. I have no intention of becoming a marauder. I have prepared well, I have food, water, and a bug-out-location. I have a trusted, well-armed, and trained group. I am not going to go out seeking trouble, robbing, murdering, and the like, just for the fun of it or because I am not prepared. In the scenario, supposedly my child died because someone refused to barter with me – that person has every right not to trade with me. However, I’m not going to sit back and watch my family die of starvation. I know some mentioned using my last bit of strength to scavenge the woods for pine needles and herbs and such. Well, that is fine and dandy if you have the luxury of living in an area where there is an abundance of natural resources to live off of. I live in an area where nearly 100% of land is owned by someone. So anywhere I might go to find those resources will be trespassing and/or stealing from someone else. If I run out of supplies, my only option is to either head to a new location and start fresh, where I will more than likely be met with hostility the locals who resent a new comer using “their” natural resources, or I have to take whatever is available in my area by force. Again, my group is armed, trained, and we see eye to eye on nearly everything, including taking out the neighbors in the event they are the haves and we are the have nots and they refuse to trade.

        • “Again, my group is armed, trained, and we see eye to eye on nearly everything, including taking out the neighbors in the event they are the haves and we are the have nots and they refuse to trade.”

          Well, at least you are out in the open about belonging to a group of marauders who plan in advance to murder your neighbors.

          That’s why we don’t stock all that much pepper spray.

        • Tomthetinker says:

          I once watched a fellow on Doomsday Preppers….. liked to make his own body armor out of bathroom tiles and roofing cement… His group was / is “… armed, trained, and” they “… see eye to eye on nearly everything…” I suppose the so called bad guy mentioned in this weeks card has every reason to deny ‘help’.

          This example was a rhetorical question, was it not?

          If this is the sort of actual response to this type of question / situation … does this kind of thinking somehow lift or erase the simple concepts of Moral Right … Self responsibility … basing ones entire life, and that of his children, on a lie … I, of course, would assume the term Honor would not apply to this discussion. Would you also expect your other area residents to somehow trust and aid you in the future? Or … hunt you down for fertilizer, and hog fodder. Sorry… this kind of thinking is very much the reason I prep … though I’m beginning to get the impression that some would revert to a Mad Max frame of mind long before their bean and rice ran out.

          Here to hoping this country can keep fooling the smart one in this world with it’s Bull S – – t and printing enough worthless paper to ‘buy’ off the dumb ones.

          • Tactical G-Ma says:

            TTT,
            It is because we already have gangs and thugs who would shoot you for a dollar, that we must prepare for that.
            My answer was to entrench myself and DH in a rural community where there is at least a semblance of integrity. I have aligned myself with groups who I believe would join together to repel hostiles and already have a loose “neighborhood” watch. We keep out druggies and trash. But most importantly, everyone is experienced in self-reliance. Every other home has livestock and gardens. Deer, turkey, squirrel, and dove seasons are marked on almost everyone’s calendar.
            I don’t mean to take the moral high ground but I would say most are people of faith (even some non-Christian) or strong values and I strongly believe God has ArchAngels and demonstrates that there is a need for warriors even in Heaven.
            If you don’t belong to a gang in a crisis, I believe it will be hard to survive.

      • Gary & Todd… You have spoken the truth. A lot of people won’t admit it, but everyone will be the same. Once it comes down to their kids, they’ll beg, borrow, steal, and kill to make sure they live. We in the Wolfpack are all preparing, but when it comes down to the end, we’re all human at heart, at that ain’t necessarily a good thing. That’s why we all need to be aware and armed, cause the sheeple love their children too, and they’ll come for you if they think they can get away with it.

        • Trolls , all of you three. If I am a have you most certainly would be a dead have not. Your attitude is awful.

          • Watchdog says:

            Dear Shades of Green,

            I can see your point of view. My heart tells me that you’re right….in Gods eyes. Unfortunately when the chips are REALLY down, we are ALL trolls or else we’re dead. Sad, but human.

          • I agree with you that it is sad, but – God is in control.

            Let everyone who comes your way have your food if you like – none of us will try to stop you.

            • Shades of Green says:

              I don’t intend to freely give charity. Their problem is not mine. One or two meals given would not save the child or family and that parent has no right trying to hold someone else responsible for his/her lack. I do have 3 grown children and 5 grand kids but I WILL NOT take someone elses food by force just because they did not want to share. What , are these idiots 2? It is these kind of low life scum that need to just quit breathing right now. It sounds like they want their cake and want to eat it to. You can’t have it both ways.

              • Tactical G-Ma says:

                Shades,
                Our Fire and EMT are all volunteers and everyone contributes annually depending on how many buildings and residential or business. And they will still respond if you don’t contribute but the price is very high. Now in a long term scenario, I believe everyone who wants certain services in our community will have to contribute goods and services. Much of the tithing for church will be food. I believe there will probably be soup kitchens set up in the churches or schools where people will be able to get soup and cornbread or biscuit. I can’t see that human nature will change. Look at those folks who were not Jewish who protected, hid, and aided Jews in Nazi Germany. What about the underground railroad. What about the soup kitchens and clinics that served the indigent during the Great Depression. There were those in WWI and II in Europe who fed the masses. In every horrible time in history there have been people who made selfless acts, who helped others. Yea there will be selfish, evil, horrible people who take advantage of others. But there will be those who will serve their community the best they know how.

    • Todd,
      “that man and everyone he loves is dead”?
      “And, if it came down to the last scraps and this group refuses to share, before my kids grew weak from starvation, I would attack this group with every bit of ammo and strength I had. It wouldn’t be about revenge, it would be about my kids surviving. “
      Of course, everything is OK when we do it for “the kids”. It’s the most lame excuse the progressives use at every turn to justify their lack of any moral fiber.
      “I don’t care what I have to do … I will lie, cheat, steal, and kill my neighbor in his sleep.”
      You’ve made me rethink my relationships, perhaps it’s time for some preemptive defense..
      “When it comes to a SHTF scenario, I will do my best to maintain my integrity and values, but if it comes down to me and my family surviving or starving while the guy across the street eats prime rib, I will slit his throat in a heartbeat,”
      So the guy who prepared enough to have prime rib, or more likely whole grains, is worth being killed because he won’t share with the guy who obviously didn’t prepare. Hmm, that is a great thing to teach your kids. Have they gotten their EBT cards yet?
      “I won’t tell my family where I found the food,”
      Why not? Perhaps because they have more integrity and morals than you do?
      “I will continue to raise my kids with values (I’m not going to teach them to rob and kill people), but I’m not going to sit back and watch them die.”
      I’ve always loved hypocrites.

  7. His food his choice. My child my failure . One of the major problem we have is our failure to accept the personal consequences for our actions. We want to blame others . That would be the only reason I could see to want to exact revenge on him is to shove blame on to someone else.

  8. Tomthetinker says:

    Hope to God I could honestly examine MY failures that resulted in my children’s deaths. ‘Feeling’ this other person had some guilt .. gotta look hard at that reaction as it is an easy crutch to lean on. I wonder though .. my DW and I store enough heirloom seeds to eventually grow enough to feed a small town so the question and fault tend to circle around and land in my lap. What was MY failure here?
    My first reaction now, is that I had better hone my ‘gardening / farming’ skills and hustle up on getting out of Toadville (Toledo).

  9. I am the ultimate responsibility for my family. I would have found a way to feed my family, but if that other person was hoarding and trying to use their position to take over other people’s land, using people in an unethical manner…. Well, there are circumstances where plotting to depose jerks would be my main focus. The base word of civilization is civil. Rule of law is what makes us human. If someone wouldn’t barter, well there is likely someone else who will. Like Xena said, I have many skills.

  10. Tomthetinker says:

    MD, this one cuts to the core of a preppers ‘motivation .. stewardship of your family.

  11. Great question! “A lot” of food is subjective. Some people would say I have a lot of food, others would say nice start. I plan to help people to an extent but there is a line I won’t cross in giving my preps away. To someone starving I will have a lot of food, To someone who knows how much he and his family need to make it until next harvest it’s barely enough. If he won’t barter I would assume he is at that point whether I agree with him or not. Conversely if I knew he had taken other peoples food or was purposely letting people die so he could profit from it….Bang!

    • Backwoods Prepper says:

      McDowell county here. we are starting to get some WVs here.

      • Good to “meet” you Backwoods Prepper. My best friend lives in McDowell. Not sure how many are on this site but you will find there are quite a few of us in WV. :)

      • Southside says:

        Backwoods Prepper , I’d say your name is pretty accurate, I don’t know of anywhere in McDowell County that they don’t have to pipe in sunshine. I was born and raised in Jenkinjones some 60 years ago . Left after school and moved south, still have a place on the mountain there and visit often.Nice meeting you!

        • Backwoods Prepper says:

          South side , I know all about piping in sunshine. I live up a holler and around the back side of a Mountian. Wv mike I have been on this site since 2011 and I’ve only seen a couple of us. We definitely need more preppers in the area.

  12. I think there are details of this scenario missing. How and why did the situation escalate to where someone was killed? Did my child try to steal the other parties supplies by force and was killed for that action? If my child was wrong, and suffered the consequenses then shame on me. But if the child was killed for no good reason, then perhaps the other party should be held accountable. JMHO

    • The child died due to starvation, it was not killed in the scenario.

    • I guess I was not clear on that point, sorry. Well than my child would have died because I failed to properly prepare and therefore the childs death is my fault and no one elses

  13. Buckwheat says:

    I don’t think that it is the starvation that kills you. Isn’t it the lack of nutrition that leads to a compromised immune system? I wouldn’t be plotting revenge, as with many others above, it would be my failure.

    However, the other people that are completely taken off guard by the event, would probably not hesitate to do any of those nasty things to me or my family. If they too are malnourished, they may be desperate but they will also probably not make good decisions which will lead to their untimely demise as well.

    The difference is mindset. We have a different one than the norm.

    A friend’s father was a baptist Af/Am preacher that used to teach him as he was a boy growing up in Georgia, “My job is to bring them to the Lord, and if they refuse, I’ll send them to him.” And then he would open his special bible with the gun hidden in it. It sounds better coming from him, but I think it is appropriate here.

  14. Rider of Rohan says:

    First of all, most of us here will probably fall in the category of having the food, or at least we should. Would you give your food to a starving child? And if you did, how many would you be willing to feed knowing that 90+% of people haven’t stored one thing? And that you would soon run out of food when feeding those who didn’t have any, and you would put your own children at risk of starving. If you have food, and others don’t, you will be accused of greed. And worse. That is why OPSEC is so important.

    So, back to the original question, the answer is no. Or it should be, but one can’t know what they would do in such a situation until it happens. What I do know is that I would be a total failure if I allowed one of my children to starve but was still alive to plot revenge.

  15. If you have the power to seek revenge, could you have then used that power to get the food? No, revenge does not apply because I did not do everything in my part to get the food in the first place.

  16. I think we are all here because we believe in personal responsibility and respect other’s rights to their own stuff. I don’t think most people would be rational though when one of their children dies and it could have been prevented. I’d blame myself but I’m willing to bet I’ll be mad as hell at the other guy too.

  17. If I were in Placerville with my children and grandchildren – almost not possible, unless someone raided our stores. I’ve spent years identifying which plants were edible and where they were as I was driving along. Winters are not so cold there that plants are not available. My landscape was almost 100% edible and medicinal plants.

    The previous place we lived in here in Oregon had almost nothing edible. The soil was pumice. Not a worm to be had for over 20 miles. Definitely winters killed everything.

    Winters are not much better here, but it is more likely that there would be food here as it is a lower elevation with good soil. However, we moved here in the dead of winter, so I don’t know what is available. Most of this area is farmland and ranchers with good rich soil, and as we are now beginning to get some green, I’m recognizing a few weeds, none that are necessarily great for eating – but now at least I have hope.

    I can see myself yelling at the person who refused to share, but nothing more – other than grieving. I wouldn’t sacrifice my families welfare if I only had enough to keep mine alive. I’d be very sad, and feel very guilty that I hadn’t done enough to prepare ahead of time, but I know I wouldn’t kill anyone else for that reason, and likely, if a child died of starvation, I wouldn’t have much energy myself and likely wouldn’t be far behind them.

  18. Urbancitygirl says:

    No, there wouldn’t be revenge. I either lost my food due to looting or some other catastrophe, or had to evacuate with little. Although my kids are grown and not living at home, I am known as one momma that would and still will defend and care for her kids. But I believe ALL of us in my family need to be well fed and strong, I would have difficulty sacrificing anyone.

    In my efforts to plan for disaster, I really hope to be prepared with food and enough skill (still acquiring those skills) to adapt.

  19. Donna in MN says:

    I would not plot revenge, but I would be ashamed of myself for my own greed and grieving that I didn’t give my child MY share of food before we ran out. I have fat reserves I could have survived without food, she didn’t have fat reserves being thinner than me. How could I see my daughter as a skelleton of a human being for weeks before she died and not find other ways to feed her? I would have to be pretty stupid and selfish myself.

    My child IS my future, and because this senario is what the circumstances are, not what I would have done to prevent it, It does not paint a picture of who I am or what I would allow to happen

  20. I agree with the majority view expressed above–it is not the other person’s responsibility to provide for my children. If my children are hungry, I have failed as a parent. If the shoe were on the other foot, I would not share with another family if that meant taking food out of my family’s mouth.

    • Donna in MN says:

      My heart would be crushed if I saw a skelleton of a child barely walking,coming to my door asking for food, and I had a lot of food as the senario presents. I would feed the child and not turn it away. I am too resourceful to turn a starving child away. I look to what Jesus said in Matthew 25:35-36, and 40—-

      For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.
      And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’

      This is in the Final Judgement how God seperates the sheep on his right from the goats on his left. It continues in Matthew 25:41-43

      Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’

      You have to deterime if you are a sheep or a goat.

      • Patriot Dave says:

        Donna, your heart is in the right place. But ask: How did that skeleton get to your door in the first place? Why is she alone? Can you see adults? Does she look nervous and glances over her shoulder? How far away are the adults if in sight? How many can you see? Do they look armed? Do they look well fed? Are the holding radios to their heads? Ask the child some questions. Who cooks for you? Who protects you? etc. Things that kids normally can’t do for themselves.
        I believe some evil people will intentionally under-feed their children or kidnap other children and use them as decoys to see who has food, then murder the entire family and steal all of their food.
        Jesus also said: “Behold I am sending you out as sheep in the midst of wolves, so be wise as serpents and innocent as doves. Mt 10:16. I am NOT saying don’t help. Just do it in a smart way.

        • Donna in MN says:

          I agree there will be evil lurking around and questions will be asked if the child is alone and I would check for hiding people. I still would not turn away a starving child regardless if it was kidnapped.or their own child for a hidden set up to steal from me.

          Matthew 6:19-21 “Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moths and vermin destroy, and where THIEVES break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moths and vermin do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

          God will provide, as I have been given knowledge to survive without food storage, and I am helping others to survive….and if I am killed, I will have my treasures in heaven because I have faith.

          • Donna,
            So you feed tis little waif, and tomorrow 5 more show up, and the next day 10, and the next week 20. At what point does the well being of you and yours trump helping the unprepared?

          • Donna, I agree. God is our protector and our provider. If He sends 10 children, He will provide the means to feed them. Everyone must do in their heart what they must do. We will stand alone on judgement day. I ask God for the wisdom to do what is right, not what the world tells me to do.

        • Papabear says:

          Well said Patriot Dave

      • Amen!

  21. How you think you will react an what actually happens will be two different things. It is amazing what survival instincts that will surface when push comes to shove.
    I would hope that I would never cross that line, but to be honest with myself………one truly never knows until that day arrive.
    That is why I do my best to prepare not just for dh an myself, but other family members who think that tomorrows devastation will not arrive. It has always been on our door steps, in many different forms.

    • Agreed. I don’t have kids but I can’t imagine feeling rational if one of them died from starvation.

      • Daisy
        Most of the family that lives close by are adults with 20 somethings that are learning the world does not revolve around them. The youngest one, is sooooo like her aunt it
        is not funny. I try to find time with everything that is going on to teach her. She is the next generation of self reliance that has to be nourished.

        • The world doesn’t revolve around me??!! Noooo… ;-) good for you. I’m working on my family too.

  22. OwlCreekObserver says:

    These scenarios often raise more questions than answers. If my child starved to death, why am I still alive? Wouldn’t I have done all I could to see that she lived, even at the expense of my own life?

    Perhaps this question is really designed from the standpoint of your neighbor, who has made no preparations at all and is looking at you and your adequately fed family.

  23. Interestng to see the shoe on the other foot. Something has happened and a preper is now in a desperate situation. Needed supplies are/were available from another apparent preper. So now, one who thought they were prepared (and ready to turn away the unprepared) have become the needy. This is a really good exercise in thinking about it from the perspective of a desperate person. Of course, you would do whatever it takes to provide for the survival of your pack. Important to note that you will have to expect the same from others who need your supplies. Including fellow prepers.

  24. We’re assuming you and your kids were healthy before the event. If so, don’t plan for revenge because you are moments from dying as well. What if the children’s health were compromised before the event? It’s your responsibility for your kids health.

    The guy who didn’t want to barter is still an a–hole. You reap what you sow. If you’re going to keep all for yourself, you make your a bigger target. What if he did share with the father and saved the kids. Wouldn’t the father think that he owed the a–hole more than a favor? True, it can go both ways: you feed someone and they come back for more, or create an ally? There are advantages and disadvantages with everything!

  25. Interesting says:

    Well the answer seems obvious since the only way my son or daughter would die of lack of food would be because I had long since died providing for my family. Thus, there wouldn’t be any plotting!

  26. No revenge. It’s my job to feed my kids. I would not plot on taking anything from anyone, either. The one exception to that rule is if they attempt to take what’s mine from me. Then, their assets become forfeit.

  27. Tactical G-Ma says:

    I wouldn’t seek revenge but I doubt my children or grandchildren will ever have to worry about that.

    You remember in our history hundreds of children were given away, sent west on trains, or just turned out because there was no food at home.

    Now I’m going to change it up a bit.

    My DH is diabetic. We keep 6-9mos of insulin on hand at all times.

    Your daughter is diabetic. Should we share DH’s insulin?
    Your daughter is septic. Should we share our antibiotics?

    If we don’t, what will you do?

    • Rider of Rohan says:

      Given some of the comments, apparently there are a good many here on MD’s blog who would kill you for it, Tac G-Ma, and not think one thing about it.

      • Tactical G-Ma says:

        ROR,
        SOS…I can control only me. Someday I will stand in judgement and so I hope when things get bad I will do what is pleasing to Him.

      • Hi Rider, In any group of 13,000+ there will be some such. I’m glad we don’t get many commenting, but also glad that from time to time they remind us that they exist. It’s good to be forewarned.

        In terrible circumstances even the best of us might do things we would be appalled by, but I have trouble with those whose idea of prepping includes groups planning in advance to murder those who are better off. Heavily armed groups, who find our supplies awfully convenient. For them.

        It is good that they tell us they are out there. They just blew OpSec.

        • Rider of Rohan says:

          Well said, Penrod. To me the most upsetting thing about this whole exercise this week is the fact that so many have in their plan to kill their neighbors if they need to, for no other reason than their neighbors have supplies. It makes me think they haven’t really prepared as they should if that is part of their plan. Of course, the irony here is that these folks, even if they have a little, will be the target of the same type of people. Because even 1 mo. of supplies will look like hoarding to those who have none.

  28. Hillbilly Hank says:

    A shepherd is needed to care for the flock. He uses sheepdogs to keep the wolves from harming the flock. The wolf’s job is to raid the flock.
    I’ll be the Grizzly and eat them all.

    Seriously, I believe with proper opsec, it is still my duty to help others when possible. That being said if I had lost my food and still had barter supply, the one who refused trade to someone with starving children does bear some responsibility for what happened after. I do believe that I would be vengeful, doesn’t mean that I kill them, but they would pay a price for their choice.

  29. Rider of Rohan says:

    We’ve had this discussion in one form or another on this blog in the past, and the vast majority here do want to be able to help people in a crisis. There are many who have already made bags of food to give out to the hungry. Many more are storing extra for others, mainly family members who are too plugged in to the things of the world to think of what might happen tomorrow.

    Bottom line is most people can’t store enough food to feed the neighborhood. Right now everyone has the ability to store some food, as rice and beans are very affordable. Heck, even people on welfare could store some staples if they would. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve seen people use an EBT card for something in a convenience store, and then turn around and buy $20 or more in lottery tickets with their cash. They could have bought a lot of rice and beans with that $20.

    But most here also realize that the food they sacrificed to buy while others bought new cars, I-Phones, I-Pads, etc., etc, will be fair game to the entitled masses who have done nothing. And those people who do nothing will feel justified in taking what you sacrificed to store. So, giving out food from your front door will be a prescription for disaster. Maintaining OPSEC by giving through a church, etc. will be the way to help people in this crisis, and is exactly what I intend to do. I have some extra superpails of rice and beans for that very purpose. And in all honesty, if I saw a child starving to death next door and I had food, I would find a way to get her/him something and still maintain OPSEC.

  30. It’s not the other person fault that you don’t have food for your Family and if the Shoe was on the other foot would you be the same way? As far a piloting revenge no But thats me at this Time. As far as being in that position with the lack of food , I can’t speak for others but I would fall into the category of Having food for my Family or being able to bring something to the table weather it be small game are a Deer or water fowl are even Fish. But I do live in a country setting.But this kind of goes back to the question of mental stability after a SHTFS Also. Stress makes People do strange Things. And how far are you willing to go to protect and provide for your family if you were in that situation? There are many factor’s involved in this question. Right now everyone is preparing for such events here and right now we are all secured in our lives but If the SHTFS were to happen and you were put into this position how would your answer that question then?

    • Donna in MN says:

      This is like reality to me. I have experienced this senario when shtf personally, and I am very thankful a neighbor gave my daughter some crackers when we ran out of food, and the next day a church gave us groceries. Because God looked out for us back then, I now return the gratefullness with supplying over 400 meals a month to starving children and families. If you practice your faith every day, it should never go away.

  31. hvaczach says:

    The problem with this as with most of the questions is it is black and white but the world is grey. It puts in a hypothetical scenario tjat demands an emotional response. There are two extremes nobody wants to contend with. I think this question is difficult to contend with because how long has the situation been dire, is this two years after event or two months we dont know our emotional, physical, or mental state at this point. So giving a absolute answer is just our personal speculation. The best of men can and will become monsters in the right conditions.

    • mom of three says:

      100 %

    • Shades of Green says:

      If you become a monster then you were truly not ” a good man / woman ” to begin with. I will not cross the line and take someone else’s life because they did not share. I have made it a point to know what I can forage to eat and hunt. It doesn’t take as much as you might think to survive. I would move on to greener pastures and search for abandoned homes or whatever but I will not harm someone else for my lack of planning or lack of defense against what I had (if it was stolen) (as we don’t know why they are out of food ). Now if someone did try to steal what I have then their would be a free lunch buffet for the local wildlife.

      • hvaczach says:

        That is an all or nothing staement that is somewhat narrow in scope. Do not our very own military pride themselves on taking scared, timid, 18 year olds and forging them into men who can, and will kill if need be. Let’s make the situation less personal assume you are incharge of a group of 50 at least 20 of them children and a similar group have “allocated resources” they were not theirs for certain before the event but they control them now perhaps a wandering herd of unmarked cattle they corralled. You try to barter to make things fair but they have wraped up most food resources in your area, and let you know that any attempt at procuring live stock or game in what they deem as their space is strictly forbidden in essence you need to move along or die they don’t care which you choose. Does this change your opinion on what you will do? if given an chance do you make them weaker and you stronger feed your clan and hopefully deal with them more compasionatly than they dealt with you? These questions are happening in a reality that has not happned yet so be careful when you deal in absolutes. Always and Never always never happen! Reality is a cruel bitch and when you meet her life and death it is eye-opening. I hope you are true to your word but don’t judge so harshly those who give an honest opinion on an un-winnable scenario.

        • Rider of Rohan says:

          Why don’t you turn this scenario around? You have a large group of people, say 50, with 20 children, and have a large farm with livestock and gardens planted and have enough food until the next harvest, but barely. If anything goes wrong it won’t last. Now a group of 50 people wander into your area, with no food or supplies. There is no possible way to feed all these people without giving out supplies that will cause your own people to starve. Now what will you do? This group is demanding that you give them supplies. You have plenty of supplies, it’s obvious. And they are willing to take them by force. Will you defend your supplies, or give them away? It pretty much depends on which side of the fence you’re on, doesn’t it. But as a prepper you’re on the side that has the supplies, or should be.

          • ROR
            Good scenario, and the answer IS- It ‘appears’ we have enough to feed us but we do NOT, you will have to check somewhere else down the road. Now move along! We do not owe you anything!

            • hvaczach says:

              I completly agree you don’t owe them anything, and I am not suggesting that you should give them anything. My post was more in thinking that when the situation is completly hypothetical because you have a full stew pot and good water to drink. What would or more appropriatly could someone become when the “metal meets the meat”. I am not agreeing with the revenge thought (although if you wish to call it revenge then it has already became personal) more so that it is easy to claim that you would take the high ground when your kids are alive and you have not already been through hell. And a good point is raised what if the guy with all the supplies is the bully on the block and has been piliging the weaker in the area. One would think in this situation everyone wants to barter something because no-one will have everything. And in answer to your question ROR I would likely say no and prepare for war, at this point you have to assume violence will be the common response. If they have a skill set or material worth taking a chance on barter, otherwise watch your ass because if you have something someone will want it. Morally I am in complete agreement with the thinking that it was, is and continues to be my burden to feed me and mine, however blanket statements of I will never do that are unrealistic when we are theorizing and not living the reality of teotwawki.

              • Rider of Rohan says:

                I don’t disagree with your statement, and in all honesty I would try to help people if I could. If you look at my post @March 11, 11:49 pm, you will see that I said if I had food I would find a way of helping a starving child without sacrificing OPSEC. I honestly don’t think I could sit by and watch a child starve if I had food. Regardless, my point was that I didn’t think I would want to take revenge. However, I did say that I didn’t really know for sure, and that I might have a change of heart if such a thing happened. And circumstances might dictate a different reaction. There really wasn’t enough information in the scenario for me to make an intelligent decision. My problem was with the large number of people who said they were prepared to attack and kill their neighbors for their supplies. For that to be part of their planning shocked me in a way, but on further thought I realized that is the plan of 90+% of the people in this nation. Someone else is responsible for my welfare, and if they don’t give it to me, I’ll take it. Or get the gov’t to take it for me.

        • Shades of Green says:

          Then mother nature knows me well! When I turn on the B*tch she is one heartless person. I don’t like being that way but have most definitely been there and done that. I have no problem with “absolutes”. When I say I will Never do something that is pretty much what happens. You would have better luck moving a mountain.

          • hvaczach says:

            I appreciate the candor, and I hope you to be true to your word. I am not trying to suggest that any one is right or wrong here, just trying to remind people that words are easy to say until there are devastating repercussions that come with them. If this were not the case then the divorce rate would not be 50%!

  32. mom of three says:

    No I would not seek revenge, but there will be people out there who will do this. They may not want to do this deep down, but it’s survival, for them.

  33. Patriot Dave says:

    I am with the majority here. No Revenge. If he was not the cause of me not having food. It would be my fault if my kids died of starvation.
    Besides, revenge will not bring my child back to life.
    Also agree that if you feed one kid, there will be hundreds of people within hours beating down your doors and taking the rest and killing you and your family.
    Even if all of my food is looted and the garden is not ready to harvest, I am learning about wild edibles. I still can hunt, trap, fish, run a trot line etc.
    I would like to propose these questions on a non-preppers web page or even a permies forum. You know like: I heart fema dot com; or yes we can dot com; or move on dot com; or whars my fing phone dot com. We can see how they answer these scenarios. It would be eye opening to some, not all, to learn what many people would be willing to do. Morality is on the decline already. Civilization is the thinest of veneer, would be stripped away quickly.
    How about it MD? Do you think the publishers of Conflicted would be interested in an experiment? We would have to lose the graphic, or not. Who knows it may wake up some folks. I would love to lurk on the sites to see the replies and arguments.

    • patientmomma says:

      When the govt shut down the EBT system in 16 states a while back, they provided their answers on TV. “Who gonna feed my 6 chilen?” “who gonna takes care of my babies?” Not baby mama or baby dady!

  34. So according to the question my family member starved to death because someone with alot of food would not barter…that being said I would PLOT revenge, I would simply go and get my sniper rifle and kill them and EVERYONE with them so no one would be left to come after me(leave NO witnesses), stack their bodies up with a sign that states”this is what happens to murderers” then gather up all their resources I could carry and leave. I would hope I would never face this situation how ever when the SHTF I believe this scenario will be more commonplace than we think.

    • CorpseKiller63,

      Would it not be better to actually take responsibility for your own survival and prepare? After all if you’re unprepared, would it not be you who murdered your family member because of your own actions and lack of preparation?

      • I would say it all depends on your point of view. The question is very generic with no background information. In a SHTF situation there would be little or no laws so I would have to rely on my own “Moral Laws”. In real life I am prepared as well as I can be and I would barter with people (cautiously of course ) if I had the resources to do so. On the flip side if for some reason I no longer had my resources, my family and or group would be my priority and I would do WHATEVER it took to ensure their survival.

        • Rider of Rohan says:

          My point of view in such a scenario(SHTF) as you describe is that you are a looter, and that I will be well within my rights to eliminate you on sight. JP said it very well in his post, “failure to plan ahead on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine”. Usually when a man decides to operate by his own “moral laws”, that man can pretty much justify anything to himself. To see some of our own on this blog, those of us who are likely to have the food and supplies, rationalize murder is very ugly. But, if it causes one person to plan their OPSEC better, decide to arm themselves against just such an eventuality, or steel themselves to what will have to be done to protect their supplies, it is well worth it.

          • WOW…Well first off I am very prepared. Second if someone is not willing to do whatever it takes to survive in a situation like that they more than likely won’t survive. And if for some reason the resources I do have were gone…yes I would loot and murder to survive, I am not trying to rationalize murder I would just do what ever it took to keep me and my family/group alive…looting and killing would be my last resort but I would do it if I had to and yes you would be well within your rights( even though they won’t exist in that situation) to try and kill me if I was looting from you. I don’t want to get into a pissing match with a prepping brother over a difference of opinions because thats all they are is our opinions and views. I actually like to think that if we were all thrown into a room that most of us would get along fairly well with each other.

            • “…you would be well within your rights( even though they won’t exist in that situation)…”
              Umm, excuse me? Since when do ‘rights’ evaporate due to a SHTF situation? Rights are right and cannot be taken away or removed, just abbrogated. And what you’re claiming is to abbrogate another’s rights- which is one of the primary reasons we’re heading for a SHTF stage. Liberals and communists love when others think they have no rights.

            • Tomthetinker says:

              I suppose we would get along fairly well with each other … right up to the moment somebody else picked up the last biscuit … right? This sort of thinking smacks of … ‘Having the cake and wanting to eat it … and then the next guys .. and the next’. Do we not ‘SEE’ the subtext here … yepper .. Darwin was on to something. Damn Shame to.

        • country vet says:

          Mind sets such as this is why I am “overprepped” in some corners such my own sniper rifle, guard dogs, etc. I did not murder your child, you did. I will not starve my own children to save yours- that would be murder.

        • Then trade your ‘sniper rifle’ for a food basket. Obviously you have no use for it as a hunting tool.

    • Tomthetinker says:

      Caution .. TROLL .. alert! or is that a prison tat and the direction your .. moral direction finder leads you. Good Gawd… reading from bottom to top lead me to agree that Darwin was absolutely right on the mark………. bloody sad state of affairs.

    • Corpse… you cannot accuse someone of murder or claim they’re murderers because someone died because they refused to give you food. That’s a far, far distance from murder. What would be murder is doing what you say you will do with your ‘sniper rifle’. And stacking their bodies up like cordwood… well, that’s downright disgusting.
      Perhaps a better use for your ‘sniper rifle’ is hunting food rather than killing those who have some.
      And save the killing of people for when they need killing, not because you’re hungry and failing as a provider.

      • JSW
        The problem is the question is not specific enough…we are lacking all the details. Granted there would probably not be any laws however going by current laws lack of action resulting in death is at minimum negligent homicide which is defined as the killing of another person through gross negligence or without malice…so not really that far from murder. I knew my comment would stir things up a little but I am just being honest. I answered it with the assumption there was no food to be found including hunting animals and if that was the case…yes I would loot and kill to keep myself and my family alive. I think this is a great topic as it gets people thinking of all the what if’s.

        • Usually, I’m the one stirring things up around here, Corpse, but as radical as I am about ‘stop others before they stop you’, I had no difficulty with this scenario, which had all the information I needed to make a good judgment: I am the one responsible for my family, not the person who denied my request for food. It’s no different than hiking down the road with a thumb out begging for a ride and being passed by hundreds of vehicles. I’m the one responsible for getting where I want to be, not others. I can no more hold them responsible for my arrival than I can hold another responsible for me not providing for my family, especially if I have ammo, fishing tackle, and live in an area with wild plants galore.
          I am responsible and will hold no other man guilty for me neglecting my responsibilities. And I will draw the line at murder, and that has a very clear meaning: killing someone with malice and forethought. Killing in self defense is a whole other idea and I have no qualms in that.

          • JSW
            We obviously interpret the question differently, I am assuming there is NO other food source available and you assume there is. If there were animals to hunt I would of course do that and not risk ANY confrontation however that is not clear in the question so I took it as worse case scenario. We can just agree to disagree :)

            • SoCalPrepper says:

              Isn’t there always something else available? The question wasn’t “you’re confined to a desert island, and this guy has ALL the food and won’t barter with you…” It may be a slog, but you can always pick up and move.

              If your family starves – that’s on you – and looting and killing – heck, murdering – people would never be the answer for me as a legitimate response to my lack of planning.

              And ditto on the extra rifles. This girl isn’t giving up what she’s put away.

  35. in this scenario I know I would eat the guilt. While I understand that there are reasons even the best prepper can get caught without their stockpiles or lost them or whatever. There are other ways to get food, maybe not as satisfying as what I stock, but it would keep my kids from starving. I also teach my kids what plants are edible. While I dont trust that my 4 year old wouldnt accidentally consume something she shouldnt, the older kids know. I also teach my kids to watch out for one another.

    As for revenge, I am not that type of person, but I would hate to ever be tested to see how far across the line I am willing to go for my kids. Thats why I prep, and not just for my family.

    I do plan for having more mouths to feed than my own family. I also look around my neighborhood and plot where gardens can go. Storing seeds to pass out wont hurt me, and may actually help. I wonder if having a few extra field guides for edible plants to pass out would be a good idea.

    • TG,
      Same here, I plan to feed more mouths than I have and I look at my neighbors to see where would be good places for gardens, places to set up defense posts, etc…

      On the positive side we now have 5 homes in the area with gardens. We live outside of town and I am thinking about hosting a “Get to Know Your Neighbors Cookout” I wonder how many would actually show up? It could be the start to a great group of people.

      • I did that with great response, I was new in the neighborhood and wanted to meet my new neighbors, so I printed off some flyers and went door to door. I figured the worst that would happen would be that I would have a nice big barbeque in my back yard, most of the folks came by and we had a great time, which led to many more shared times. you have to take the initiative though…..

      • Brenda, I agree that would be a good idea.
        We know, or at least have chatted with most of our neighbors. Because of this I have a good idea of who would be willing to work together for the whole, who I would watch more carefully than I do now, and who would probably sit back and pretend to work.

      • mom of three says:

        Do it Brenda, those 5 families maybe a start to a good neighborhood friendships. I know seversl of our neighbors, whom also have gardens, we would share seeds, and advice.
        I just think of the squash, I cut up I took out close to 300 seeds, that I dryed and stored how many families could I feed on 300 seeds.

    • Yes it would especially if you knew your area had a lot to offer in food.

      • Yes it would especially if you knew your area had a lot to offer in food. Plant guides would help those help themselves.

  36. PINKPREPPER – Well, in this case I certainly would not be a good “survivor” if one of my own died. I would like to think I am more prepared for these kinds of things. But in this scenario, I would not exact revenge, I would do everything to remedy the problem. Because I am the one that is responsible for the food. Killing would not be the answer, but it does not mean that I could not kill if I had to. When people don’t have food, we will see things that we probably have not seen and don’t want to in this country. Probably sooner than we think. So that is WHY we prep so we can take care of ourselves and we cannot feel “Guilty” because other people do NOTHING. If you are not willing to help yourself, then nobody will probably help you. Civil will turn uncivil quickly. You MUST be prepared. PINKPREPPER

  37. JC in GA says:

    This is a tough one. Think Ill have to pass on what I would do. However the thought that popped into my head was, you can rightfully deny me and my family, but when the winds of change and fortune blow hard in the other direction, certian people need not come to my door. Life is harsh and we have the ability to make it bad.

  38. worrisome says:

    NO Revenge, my problem, not theirs. I would probably be hurt and angry that they didn’t share…………if I knew them, but No Revenge. Their stuff, their decision.

  39. JP in MT says:

    As a Christian, I’m told that it it MY responsibility to provide for my family. As an adult, I take over from my father, that responsibility, and am now responsible for him (although it does not absolve him of his responsibilities). My children are given to me by God to care for and protect. If I allow them to starve, I have not done that.

    Although I am never relieved of this responsibility, my adult children have their responsibilities too. Just as I did/do. I do not have the option to blame others for not giving me food for my children. It is MY job.

    This question, in one form or another, comes up regularly in prepping and Christian circles. I have Christian friends who assume that since they are and I am, I have a responsibility to share what I have put up with them in times of need. Many “fringe” preppers feel the same way. They join a group then do little or nothing, and expect the others in the group to take care of them.

    Then there are those who have allowed themselves to become dependent on a unsustainable system. SOMEONE is responsible for feeding, clothing, and housing them. Surly it is not themselves.

    This is why I recommend that those who have put up enough to grant charity to others, do it through a 3rd party. The masses won’t consider what is yours now, yours during a shortage. Now they laugh, take their vacations and buy their overpriced toys. I have had to harden myself to the idea that there will be many “good” people who will come to my door. But as we said in the Army “Failure to plan ahead on your part, does not constitute an emergency on mine.”

    • DB Prepper says:

      That is a very clear headed response and I certainly respect it. However, this asked if YOU would seek revenge on someone who denied YOU supplied/food needed to survive. So being a good christian aside, if someone wouldn’t share what they had in abundance and your son or daughter dies because of it…what then?

  40. tommy2rs says:

    If my daughter died because I was too stupid to prepare then I would probably be stupid enough to go back at night and set the guy who refused me food house on fire.

    In the real world the idiot got what he deserved for being a grasshopper instead of an ant. Too bad it was his daughter that had to pay for his stupidity.

  41. barberbill says:

    Well, if my child has died of starvation, then I must be in pretty bad shape myself, and would be unable to exact revenge even if I felt it. The other man has a right to his property. Individual rights, freedom and Individual responsibility are coner stones of the true American. But, while that child is alive, it might be a different story. While the man with the food is separate and a neutral group, I can understand his reluctance to trade. But trade is a matter of having the right coin. At some point I’m going to consider his neutrality an act of hostility. The starvation of my family, of my people is a cost effective way of killing us, and taking our territory and our remaining equipment without firing a shot. As in Russia surrounding Berlin and blockading Allied aid, in an attempt to starve Berlin into submission. So, long before that child dies, I’m going to evaluate his motives and if he is not going to be an ally I’m going to consider him an enemy. Because if his child was dying, I would help. Inaction can have as severe consequences as direct attack. If he can stand by and let me and mine die, then he is not neutral and not an ally. So I would change the coin with which I barter with.

    • barberbill says:

      And for those of you thatare going to say what is his is his and that you would accept yourself as a failure and sit idle and let your child die in order to protect the other man’s property rights, then you obviously do not have any children or loved ones in your life.

      • DB Prepper says:

        You’re right on Bill, but let’s also remember that the scenario is that you “perceive” he/she is being greedy. If something has led you to believe he has food and won’t share and your child dies, I cannot imagine that “what’s his is his” would enter your head. So if we both have things each other want but don’t need to survive, that’s fine no big deal we can find another option. If it’s something critical and the person won’t trade anything and you will die…well they made the choice really simple for you with their decision IMHO.

        • Rider of Rohan says:

          If your child is starving, it’s likely that you would “perceive” someone who only had a week’s worth of food as having an abundance. It’s highly unlikely they would consider it an abundance, however, and no sane person would either. This was a good question, and I’ve learned more today than I have in a long while. I’ve been thinking about it, and it is a major expense, but my son offered to go in halves on a Barrett. It looks like we will need it. And more security than I was prepared to think about at our BOL.

          • DB Prepper says:

            Get it Rider, I have a cousin in AK that has one and he raves about the Barret .50 cal. I am hoping to get up there and test it out this summer!

      • Tomthetinker says:

        I’m reading these backwards .. Isn’t the point of this weeks ‘Card’ to make us evaluate our preps and work at filling the holes in them. I have a son and Daughter, three sisters, BILs,SILs, Cousins infinite, Neps & Niec’i, Son and Daughters in Law … OMG I got Grand children now. All … with in ‘bug in range’. What I’m hearing is your needs, based on your lack of means, at the expense of another’s good planning and prudent actions. ??? When does ones actions become a justification for becoming the sort that they once prepared and planned a defense against. I donwanna start a flame fight here … tell me what I’m missing………..

        • barberbill says:

          My point is, that no matter how high our principles are now, no one will sit on their principles and let their child die with out a fight. Now parents fight for a sick and dying children within a current code of laws and legal procedure. But without rule of law a parent will fight for the life of that child by any means possible. And the subscribers here that say what is mine is mine and the rest of you can suck it, because I prepared better than you, will come under attack. When your neighbor says sorry your child must starve because he prepped better than you, and that you deserve what you get because you are stupid, you are not going to tell that man that you understand, and admire that man’s principles, and ask to burrow a shovel to dig a grave. Your child is dying, your neighbor or someone has the means to save that child, and there is no law. You are not going to watch a child die and think to yourself that the kid deserved because you didn’t buy that extra pound of beans. You, or anyone else, will fight.

          • DB Prepper says:

            Thank you Bill, my sentiment exactly. I think this question struck a chord with many here because we/you have prepped well and to think you would have nothing is a difficult position and one you may not have thought possible. Many on here turned into the person who is saying no to you and giving reasons why.

            Those who would shun any and all I sincerely hope you all have the Barret .50 cal Rider of Rohan wants to purchase….you may need it!

            • Rider of Rohan says:

              Shunning folks is really, really bad, but killing your neighbors because you didn’t prep well is passé. You sound exactly like a liberal/progressive.

        • Nsaneprepper says:

          NOTHING!!! Some things are worse than death. As Christians we understand that life is eternal through Jesus! Only their earthly body would be dead and as previously stated I would starve before my kids or grandkids.

          • DB Prepper says:

            So….you would die and let your children die because you’ll live forever through Jesus? What did I miss?

            • Dean in Michigan says:

              I’m wondering what I missed too. How do you describe the fate of someone who doesn’t believe??? I won’t question what you would do for your children….we would all do things that we swore yesterday we wouldn’t do. Please tell me how our mindsets are different. Do you trust humanity to honor religion??????In this day I can’t see it

  42. Freebird says:

    Knock Knock. The worst of all possible scenarios offered in many prior posts here should serve to prepare all of us mentally as to almost certain challenges we each will face from our end of the scope. Mentally anticipate for almost this exact cognitive dissonance event after the deprivation of just nine meals or into any major milieu shift. Love and take care of the children when and wherever you can but be very wary as they the most cunning predators will most certainly use children as probe bait and pawns.

    • Tomthetinker says:

      Your response is worthy of a ‘card’ of its own.

    • Rider of Rohan says:

      I really wish this topic had evolved more on this thread. The cunning will use children to get you to let your guard down, as an entity that will compromise your OPSEC, and as a Trojan Horse in your retreat or BOL. My cousin in Africa has seen children as young as 7 used as soldiers, spies, and for espionage. He told me of one case in Nigeria where a child gained entry to a village and poisoned the water supply, which was one well. Yes, children will be used as weapons, and we have to think about these things ahead of time. Good post, and one that has not garnered enough attention.

      • Tactical G-Ma says:

        ROR,
        I couldn’t agree with you more.
        The desperate will use any subterfuge, even children, to get what they want.

  43. HillCountryTXGal says:

    I would not seek revenge but I wouldn’t help them later if I heard their screams for help.

    We run out of gummy bears, snickers and twinkies but we will never run out of “karma”

  44. I’m in agreement with 95% of you-my bad my problem- Now I want to talk something else, these ammo shortages that the majorities talk like its our fault (and we’re causing it) seems kinda strange that my father is calling ME because he can’t get shotgun shell components(for reloading) blue rock, he’s been shooting for 60 years and he’s reduced to using recycled lead,non-existant powder,non existant wads,the only things he can get are primers and the’re not cheddie the’re Winchester. So just keep on believeing the writers that say there is no ammo shortage(or we are to blame for it) I think we’re going to find out sooner we’ve been lyed to than later!

    • JP in MT says:

      Ronald:

      Reference shotgun reloading components.

      I was at a major retailer this weekend, and they had most everything for reloading shotgun shells. But I must admit at $50 a bag for shot, they sure seem to be expensive.

      • J.P. yes I hear you but international clays powder is gone, windjammer (pink) wads are gone, but the recycled shot is junk it spreads all over but he bought 30 bags of it,and the cheddie primers well I guess I have my groceries don’t I.

        • Ronald:

          Not being a shotgun reloader, I don’t understand some of the particulars, but I do understand there are a lot of “gaps” in what is available. I have slimmed my powder choices down to about 6. I buy them when I can. The same with bullets and brass. We spent a year looking for one specific powder for the 300 AAC, and I just found a pound last week.

          I don’t know if the shot I saw was “recycled” or not, but I thought $50/bag was way high. I remember complaining when it went to $25. It’s a mess, and I’m not sure where the problem is. I’ve heard it from just about every angle, but no one theory answers the whole problem.

  45. DB Prepper says:

    There are some good responses here already, but if it were me, and let’s be realistic here, you’re not going to be in a “happy let’s all be friends mood” if a family member or close knit group member dies because you perceive someone has hoarded food and hasn’t helped simply out of greed. You can easily take responsibility and say it was my fault, I didn’t prepare as I should have, but hey, things happen. What if YOUR stores were looted and the individual who still has food was spared the looting, or perhaps you helped defend that individuals stockpiles in the wake of your own being confiscated by SHTF refugees, there are a million variables for this predicament.

    Personally, I would not only plot revenge but I would exact it swiftly and TAKE the food to ensure no one else in my family falls prey to a hunger related death. I am very protective of my family (it happens when you have 4 sisters, lots of fist fights in my “hey day”) and I cannot see myself just accepting this as a potential fate of the rest of my family.

    Now, that said, I would of course attempt to barter with labor, future goods, water, and or whatever materials we had available. If this individual didn’t want to play ball, then hey, I am a survivalist for a reason, I wish to SURVIVE and will do everything in my power to ensure my families survival. If this means stealing, lying, cheating, murder, whatever we have to do to survive. I have sincere doubts that any of those things would be needed as I consider myself fairly likable and hardworking so I would want to believe someone would help me as I would help them in exchange for whatever we needed to survive.

    • Tactical G-Ma says:

      DB
      That’s why I am prepared to defend my home.

    • JP in MT says:

      DB:

      Here in lies the problem. What you determine to be his “excess”, my not be a surplus to him. Just because it looks to you like I have an extra jar of rice, but I look at it as MY children my go hunger in 3 months if I give it to you, you will get nothing as they, not you, are my responsibility.

      You wonder why people would be leery to trade or even talk with you; just because of what you said. If you don’t get what YOU think is fair, you’d kill them.

      • DB Prepper says:

        JP in MT there is no perception of excess, the scenario states that someone in your family died because another individual had a lot of food and didn’t want to share. If you had 3 months of food and weren’t willing to share enough for a meal to save my child….expect some form of retribution, simple as that.

        Also, if someone is at your doorstep and truly in need of something, anything, that you have in abundance and you turn them away to face their own demise whether it is their fault or not, how many enemies would you create in this scenario?

        • JP in MT says:

          DB:

          I guess you have explained your position as well as possible. I just don’t agree. I feel, if you are looking for charity, even to trade for services, if you are turned away, this does not give you the right to kill and take something from someone.

          Part is prospective too. 3 months food is not enough to get you through to the next harvest up here.

          • DB Prepper says:

            I respect your opinion JP, and btw I am happy to hear someone would rather not be violent.

            • JP in MT says:

              DB:

              Thanks, but make no doubt, threaten me and mine and I’ll unhesitatingly make you dead. It’s not my 1st choice, but the option is always “on the table”.

    • DB
      Your last paragraph sums it up…most people will do WHATEVER it takes to survive no matter what they post on here. They would like to think they would not loot, steal or murder but it’s a completely different story when actually faced with a true survival situation. I personally would exhaust all non violent means first but if need be yes I would lie, cheat, loot and kill to ensure myself and my family/groups survival!

    • Survivor says:

      BD Prepper
      I can’t understand if, when you’ve got nothing else, you sit and plot the other guy’s demise. Shouldn’t you be looking for food instead of sitting around being angry? If you attack a person’s home who you know has plenty of food, wouldn’t your lack of food be a problem? Wouldn’t you assume he has weapons to protect that which is his? Would you risk yet another member of your family getting killed? Would you blame the other prepper for that loss, as well? Does that warrant another attack? When does this vicious circle stop?

      • DB Prepper says:

        You are right in part Survivor. I didnt attempt to take into account available food in the area, if there is any. That seems like an easy way of not answering the question. What if you’re in Arizona, or in Los Angeles like me, what wildlife can I hunt off of Santa Monica Blvd? What can we forage on Wilshire blvd?

        Yes I would assume he or she have weapons and if they’re willing to let people die rather than share, I would have to believe they’d be willing to kill me for taking it as well.

        Yes I would blame the other prepper for killing someone in my group if we attempted to take their supplies by force. I don’t think if something were to get so out of hand where people are dying or being killed that I would be able to just up and walk away. Yes it would be personal and probably would turn into a feud if we were able to survive the initial attacks.

        In that case however, it may be better for the one with the food to kill me because I wouldn’t stop until they were gone if it came to that kind of horrible climax.

        Hard to imagine your neighbor or fellow man turning his/her back on you to the point where someone dies…maybe I have too much faith in people but all of those on this thread citing religion or being christian…you’d be able to look me in the face and say “sorry, I have food but you don’t, you and you’re family are doomed”.

        • Survivor says:

          I’m neither religious nor Christian. If it comes down to ‘your’ (meaning the non-prepper type) kids starving to death..well, too bad, so sad. I took the time to prepare.
          Having said that I would never turn away a hungry person if there were trade to be had, which, in this scenario, is what caused all the problems in the first place.
          We will find folks like this after SHTF and they will be dealt with, one way or another.
          As far as eating off Santa Monica Blvd/Los Angeles…you have a huge ocean to fish. Indians lived out there before the white man and they survived. I do understand most of the game is gone from your area, but dogs, cats, squirrels, rats and bugs can go into the pot as well as snakes, lizards and turtles.
          Your biggest problem in post-SHTF is going to be water. Once that stops flowing southern Kalifornia will dry up and blow away.

          • Survivor says:

            I need to clarify something I wrote. ” If it comes down to ‘your’ (meaning the non-prepper type) kids starving to death..well, too bad, so sad. I took the time to prepare. Having said that I would never turn away a hungry person if there were trade to be had, which, in this scenario, is what caused all the problems in the first place.”
            Trade would include labor for food. I read that several times after I posted it and it just didn’t sound right. I realized this morning what it actually said.

        • Donna in MN says:

          A real practicing Christian does not deny a hungry stranger food if they have it, and the stranger is not out to kill them or do them harm. I have stated this before I would not deny a starving child. I don’t put faith in people, but in God, and I know God loves everyone, including you.

          I said it to your face as best as I can.

          I lived in the desert and took in many strangers who needed food years ago. Most of them were heading to California or got in a bind without money for food. One person stole my car and guitar, but I got it back and he wasn’t welcome after that. The rest were grateful as I packed peanut butter and jelly sandwiches when they continued their journey. One Navaho stayed a month until he sold his jeep, and in return taught me how to weave and make cactus jelly. Others were from other states who brought their girlfriends to visit time after time because I offered them a place to sleep and something to eat.

          The neighbors spread lies about me seeing all these people come and go, and spread I was a whore. I was doing payback to God and being a Christain by helping others. The neighbors claimed to be “Christian” and spent their time making false accusations, while I worked hard making a living, helping others who got down on their luck, feeding the hungry, and this is what I got. I feed over 400 starving children and families every month now. Do I deserve the statement you gave me?

    • Donna in MN says:

      ” this means stealing, lying, cheating, murder, whatever we have to do to survive.”

      This is why I buy ammo for self defense of my family. You won’t live long doing those things, and judgement will fall on you.

  46. DB Prepper says:

    lol, don’t worry Tactical G-Ma, we would only have trouble if you let my son die. It also doesn’t mean I would succeed in my revenge…but you better believe I am coming for you! ;)

    • Tomthetinker says:

      DB … Ah…. smile and a wink … You are joking … right?

    • Tactical G-Ma says:

      I really have a problem with this question. I am by nature a very caring and charitable person. And I can’t watch those commercials about starving dogs much less children.
      And what kind of world do I want my grandchildren to inherit? One where we survive at all costs or one where love and compassion exists even when it means we might not live as long.

      After letting it sink in and stew a few hours, I’ve got to say I just don’t know. I guess it will be on a case by case basis and whether or not I consider that OPSEC could still be somewhat maintained.

      But regardless, I’ve had some pretty crappy stuff happen to me and I have to believe vegence is the Lord’s job. Not mine.

      • DB Prepper says:

        It is a difficult question, but in the scenarios each of us had in our heads that led us to begin prepping there will be difficult decisions, in fact they all may be difficult.

        We cannot pick and choose on answering the tough questions, not everyone will like your answer as you can see with my post having a few folks say they would never react that way because they have a lot of food stored, or even taking the side of someone who would watch another’s child die from starvation when you had plenty of food.

        I also don’t think you can hide behind religion and say it’s not your job for revenge. I don’t mean to get into mob mentality but what if 30 people had no food but one farmer to his/her credit, had plenty of food would it be ok for the farmer to deny so many a meal? Would it be ok for the 30 people to storm the farmers house and steal the food and possibly injure or kill the farmer? no and no. But there are two sides to every coin and I will always side with my family in these scenarios. So if we have the food and don’t feel like we can help (whether we can or not is always going to be opinion) then no I am not giving any scrap I don’t feel we can spare. And if I have no food and someone won’t even share a crumb to prevent my child’s or family members death then yes I will become violent and try to use force.

        Obviously it goes unsaid if there is game for hunting or food to forage then that is what we’ll do but that isn’t an option for everyone. There isn’t much to forage in los angeles…

        • Donna in MN says:

          You can engage in canabalism. There’s plenty of food in La after the riots and dead people abound. Cut yourself a rump roast, or delight in finger food for the kids. You won’t have to murder anyone who is already dead. Many people did this for survival. You would do everything, remember?

      • Freebird says:

        Same here and I’ve have been absolutely amazed how quickly he wielded at his mighty swift sword. Although not my initial nature and difficult for me to let go, I left vengeance up to him and he didn’t waste much time taking care of those who were the demon aggressors.

  47. I would not be asking for help, because it would reveal a weakness to others. If things are that bad, them it is a very predatory environment. Like Nemoseto, I will find food outside if I no longer have store-bought, and, no this is not something I grew up with. But I did not move to a rural area to begin begging. I expect if this person is such a jerk sooner or later fate will even the score. But I will shake the dust off my shoes and walk the other way.
    I am reading everything I can get my hands on about edible plants here in my area. We don’t poison our weeds here, and I am learning that most of them are food. This summer I will be verifying the identity of some that I am not sure of and practicing eating them.

  48. Tomthetinker says:

    DB .. “… you perceive someone has HOARDED food..” I must agree with Tac G-Ma. This sort of ‘variable’ perception on the part of my fellows is the reason I ‘perceive’ the need for OPSEC and… am prepared to defend my family and home. I don’t believe you intended any negatives .. You just said what most of us think about but hope we have the will and preps to avoid. I pray I don’t ever have to consider the choice of becoming an “Avenging” ‘Looter’ / freebooter / … or a refugee.

    • DB Prepper says:

      @Tom I completely agree with you and I would I have done enough to never be in a situation where I would NEED someone else’s resources. But I also didn’t want to cheat the question and provide an answer which would allow me to avoid the actual question which was, “if you need food”. I think far too often survivalists depend on their stored food and water. What if in a SHTF scenario you’re forced to leave your house and retreat to an area where there is no food. What if your house is burned down by anarchists or thugs?

      I sincerely hope I am not put in this situation, but if I am I am prepared to do whatever needs to be done to survive.

      • Tomthetinker says:

        It is many hours … or so .. later … I’m calmer … This rhetorical question we have been arguing .. hotly too .. seems to hinge on a worst case event … ala Mad Max, if you will accept the visuals. The argument seems to revolve around and around the circle of good / bad / hope / despair/ right / wrong / beans or rice / free will / Gods will. We are all in one ‘Pack’ or another. Running or chasing … ?????

        • Survivor says:

          Very good point, Tom! From every imaginable opinion and viewpoint we discuss what we think we may wanna hope we’d do if actually faced with that scenario.

          I think some on here form an opinion with the issue, read through some of the responses, even if they answered first, and then maybe fine tune their opinion. In my case, I went from a “build a big fence, shoot ‘em if ya see ‘em” to “some of these folks make very good points to not being paranoid”. As a result I’ve softened, or hardened, my viewpoint about issues brought up in this forum, especially Conflicted Tuesday. This one feature MD has bestowed upon us has brought more us thinking about more issues in a much shorter amount of time.

  49. Did the child die of starvation? Maybe the person with the food caught your child trying to steal food and killed them. The scenario doesn’t specify how the child died.
    While I feel it is definitely my responsibility to provide for my child, I would be mighty pissed if someone would rather watch my child die than barter with me. I can’t predict what I’d do, but I’d certainly be looking for plants and other means to help sustain life, and not just sit back and plot revenge.
    On the other hand, was my child starving because someone stole my preps? If this were the case, I would have to assume they stole any weapons I might have had also. In that case, I would definitely be seeking revenge against the person(s) who stole my stuff.

    As for the people who refused to barter…they’ll run out of food eventually, or need something I have.

  50. We are calling it “revenge”…..that is not the correct description. it is called “survival”. When it gets down to die or steal, rob, and kill…….well I doubt many, if any, will choose to die. If my child died….regardless of cause, I would still be trying to survive and keep the rest of my family and myself alive one more day. Like I said earlier, I plan on being a “mouse” and avoiding anybody, but if I must be a lion or a wolf as a last resort, then I will. I think most people here will also.

  51. wolfwalker says:

    I agree pretty much with most of the people here. Its my reponsibility to take care of me and my own not someone else.
    Me and my brother took care of our mother, father, and grandmother(victims of diabetes, strokes and dementia for 20+years). We did not get much help from friends or family, didnt ask for or recieve government assistance. We made due with what we had. Now thanks to those last 20+ years my brother has had three strokes, lost half a foot, and is on disability after fighting for two years and now I take care of him and I’m dealing with my own health problems. But no matter what, family comes first.

    There are two things I wish were explained in this scenario:
    1. How do you know how much food this person had? Did he wave some beans and rice in your face and say”Your starving and I’m not”.? Plus how big is the guys family he’s taking care of.

    2. Are there other people around you can barter with? Certainly there should be someone else in the area that isnt a major d-bag.
    I hate to say it, if you have gotten so far down to this point and you hadnt come up with some solution before your kid starved, you probably wont live that long to begin with.

    Me and my brother were discuss this scenario between us. We live on 27 acres with a thicket in back, a creek runs through it, there are deer, squirrel, rabbits, pheasant, fish and god knows what else. Plus we are willing to pick up and learn the skills we need to survive. I know not everyone is able or willing to learn the same or they’ll try to take what we or someone else has, but at least I know I wont be the one that starts it.

    • Tactical G-Ma says:

      Wolfwalker, Don’t you know that every Morman has at least enough food for their family for one year? (sarcasm)
      If they are good Christians, then they will feed us, right? It’s their duty, right?
      Why don’t all us Baptists go get what the Mormans have?
      What about people with gardens, livestock, and water? They should provide for the masses.

      The problem is I would be gone somewhere else if my family’s needs can’t be met, at the first hunger pang. If I had to beg, grovel, sell my body to feed my child, that’s what I would do. But taking another’s property or blaming others for my hardship or loss just isn’t my way. But truth is, I haven’t walked a mile in those shoes.

      • wolfwalker says:

        Tactical G-ma
        To tell the truth, I’ve blamed people and God for being put in the situation I’ve been put in, but I’ve learned a couple of things too.

        1. Unlike some people I work with, I stayed, took care of my own, and I’d do it again.

        2. No matter the situation, I need to learn from others so I dont make the same mistakes they did.

        3. Things will always get better eventually. You just have to fight through.

        Sorry if sound like I’m rambling.

        • Short of total destruction The human race will most likely survive we always have and always will fight to live. Things will get better after SHTF .

  52. No Brainer. They were looking out for themselves, which is what we are all called to do. How come I didn’t have enough food to feed my kids? As a Christian, I know my spirit is willing but my flesh is weak. I think BECKY has it right, but my inclination is to mourn my own poor preparations and vow to do better for my family that is still alive. If it comes to this, everyone that is “prepared’ will probably face this scenario. God help us if it comes down to this.

    • Harry
      Thank you, I would worry that the worst side of me would come out in a situation where I failed to my best and prevent the family from going hungry.
      You see, we have been through a total loss of all preps for survival, an it was an eye opening situation. Even through it has been almost ten years from total devastation back to somewhat of a stable self reliance….I have never forgotten what caused it or who caused it. One was a deviant from the bottoms of society that we all supported via welfare, and the fire he started while high on drugs.
      He was so full of himself that he actually bragged about starting the fire in the local grocery store and said nothing and no one could do anything to him……..he spent 4 years in prison. Personally I wish they had thrown away the key.

  53. Tactical G-Ma says:

    Umpty ump years ago, a USAF Sgt. stationed in England went TDY for a month. Upon his return, he found his young wife had died shortly after he left England and beside her was the dead body of their toddler.
    This week in Decatur, Alabama. A 78 yo woman suffering with advanced Alzheimer’s was found in her home barely clinging to life. The 75 yo husband had been dead for about a month from natural causes. Both of their dogs had starved to death.
    If we are people of faith and are good neighbors, how do these things happen?

    • TGMa,
      They happen because we are prideful and don’t ask for help and don’t accept it when offered. They happen because when you check on the old couple next door and they find it annoying, you finally stop. They happen because we go too long without speaking to family members in others states due to our busy schedules.
      We need to step up our game, especially with our neighbors.

    • TGMa;
      We have been slowly taught it is not nice to spy/pry into a neighbors living style.
      We live in a country setting, and although I have not been able to visit with other neighbors those that are close by I notice a change in their day to day comings and goings.
      It was how I knew the gentleman who had a lung transplant was home or down south, and needed someone to stop by every so often and visit for awhile, when his wife was at work. There were days I would drop off groceries “we had to many of–fresh veges-homegrown beef”. They have since moved into town he is declining, yet I still try to find time to call and check on them. One just has to be observant of their surroundings…..unplug from those awful electronic contraptions called cell phones, m3players or whatever new gadgets they have come up with.

      • Tactical G-Ma says:

        Becky
        I think that’s being a good neighbor. Know what vehicles belong in your neighborhood. Who lives in what house. If a car alarm goes off show up. If there’s smoke or an ambulance show up. And don’t be afraid of sitting on your front porch. Be available to kill a spider or a snake or light a pilot for the widow/er down the road. Add an extra potato to the pot for the old couple or the young couple a few houses or apartments down. We don’t snoop but are informed and gratefully our neighbors are too.

  54. I don’t have a minor child, but if I did, I would do almost anything to feed them including…..beg, borrow, steal, starve, or cook the family dog and cat to keep them alive. This is why I prep. (I have a live trap and we could live a while on possums, skunks and raccoons in our neighborhood!)
    After they passed, I would not go and kill others. I would lay down and die of a broken heart.

  55. Hunker-Down says:

    I don’t know the future, so I don’t know how long we must survive on our stores, so I would do what they did. Maybe the people who didn’t want to share have the same mindset. My problems are not their fault. I don’t know what pressures are on him/her. He doesn’t know my pressures.
    How crazy/selfish is it for me to plot revenge against them if both of us have the same mindset? We might not, but I wouldn’t know that.
    It’s not my decision if those people are destined to outlive us. I’m not in charge, God is.

  56. k. fields says:

    I don’t see this as I didn’t plan well enough and I’m simply upset that someone else did. I never asked for handouts or charity here. There had to be a reason I felt the people were acting out of “selfish greed”, rather than just worry over their own children – I’m not a person to make quick judgements of others simply because our opinions of a situation may differ. I think most here will agree that no one will be able to survive long term totally alone – it will take a cooperative effort.

    When I read this scenario, the first thought that came to my mind was the French Revolution. Although the statement, “Let them eat cake” was never actually said, the perceived attitude here is the same. Obviously a lot of people in France wanted revenge for that perceived attitude, correct or not.
    During that period of French history, much of the land was barren, even the grass in the pastures was being eaten directly by people as there was nothing available – the idea that everyone could simply play “batman in the boondocks” to survive is patently absurd.
    And yet so many here are saying, “I hold no one responsible other than myself” – I wonder…

    When my own daughter died, I know I wanted revenge – there was, in fact, no one to blame but I still wanted revenge for her life. If there had been 1 single person that I could identify who could have unquestionably saved her life but didn’t, I’m not sure I would have been able contain those feelings.

    Would I plot revenge against the person in this scenario if I felt they could have helped without endangering themselves or their family? Probably, but that doesn’t mean I would attack them and steal their stuff. I would simply remember. And watch. Some day, at some point, that person would need help – and I would assure that help was not forthcoming. What’s that old saying? you reap what you sow? Their actions would not be forgotten. There would, someday, be consequences.

    • Rider of Rohan says:

      Yep, the French Revolution, which led to a merry band of Jacobins touring the countryside with their guillotines, killing their neighbors by the tens of thousands, many for not “sharing” what they had, which was close to nothing. Reminds me of that bunch in charge of DC right now.

    • Sagewolf says:

      I agree their would be consequences. He may need help protecting his stuff some day. It could cost him dearly for your help where if he had helped you You may have helped for less compensation. I would do this assuming he was truly a bad person. I

  57. I would not try to get revenge. I don’t need to get into any battles. & if I try to get revenge, it could lead to them trying to get revenge on me/us. I’d focus on getting or growing food for my family & me. Gardening, trading w/ others, trapping, snares, hunting, fishing, foraging are all possibilities. There are weeds to forage in our neighborhood & yard, & we’re not far from a woods. Could offer to filter water, to trade for food. Could trade matches for food. Could trade ammo or a gun for good, as a last resort.

  58. I am always a person of a third path.
    I too find the scenario hard to visualize reaching that point.
    I would have found SOME way of keeping the child fed. I might be walking on stumps, there might not be a scrap of leather left in the house, the neighborhood strays might be mysteriously vanished, but I would feed my child. This drive is natural and given to all parents (why it is going to be so dangerous during the die off).
    IF there was some specific item food or medicinal that my child needs but wasn’t stocked (sufficiently) by myself- the person hoarding it and refusing to trade would likely find their stocks as mysteriously depleting as the neighborhood strays in a starvation scenario – only if alternatives could not be found of course.
    Which is why I will NOT turn away completely empty handed any families that manage to find their way to my door- it wont be much but should be enough to get them started toward a better place and to have the skills of foraging for their own foods.
    It is also why I intend my BOL to be so far from others. (10 miles to the nearest town of 1k pop., over 100 miles to the next town with more than 1k pop.)
    I have plans to give handouts even with such a distance, but if anyone ever comes back for third handouts or _demands_ the handout or more- well that’s where things get tricky and unpleasant. And I have plans for the ‘tricky and unpleasant’ too.

  59. One question for those who say they would rob, steal, and kill, or ‘do anything necessary’ to ensure the survival of their families; Why didn’t you do those things BEFORE your child died?
    If you would truly do those things, then the man who had plenty and refused to trade would already be killed and robbed for his food to feed your starving child.

    • Sagewolf says:

      Good point. It would have to be a Pride thing I think. Pride goes before a fall in this case the death of your child.

  60. Riverwood says:

    For those that will do whatever it takes to feed their own and will murder over “perceived greed”, how long will your ill gotten goods last? A week?, a month?- then what? What will it take for you to murder a second and a third and a fourth time? What perceived injustice will the next one be? “he gave me a dirty look” or “he’s a smug SOB”. Once you cross that line you will rationalize anything at any time to take what you feel you’re owed, how are you any different from the Obama “Freefors” – except that you’re better armed?
    That man you killed that you perceived as greedy may belong to a larger, more well armed group and you will learn the meaning of Karma very quickly while getting you and yours all killed – instead of just 1 child dead, you’ll all be dead. If not this time then maybe the next one you target for murder will do you in, or maybe other neighbors will band together to hunt you down like a murdering rabid dog. They will have to before they are at the top of your kill list.

  61. patientmomma says:

    I am not a revengeful person right now. I would like to think my character would stay in tact, but until I get there, I won’t know for sure. In the book One Second After, people died because they could not get medicines or could not keep them stabilized or refrigerated. Would I kill the pharmacist because of that? No.

    Like everyone on this site, I have been trying to prepare with sufficient needs for my family and a few of my elderly neighbors. If somehow it was taken from me and I found myself without food or medicine for those I love, I would try to get something, from anywhere I could. At this point I don’t think I could kill someone for not sharing; but later ???

  62. Fortunately those who did not prepare the majority of them will be dead already. If they did not prepare for SHTF with food they did not prepare by storing water. 3 days and a lot of them will be dead including those killed in the initial caos. The water systems will be contaminated by whatever disaster there is occurring. One important prep we are forgetting a lot about and I never see it posted anywhere. The time to get ready for this is now. We need to educate our friends and family members now. Even if they get started late they can still do something right up to the point of catastrophe. Help them get started. Maybe get a small bag of preps together and give it to them. Who knows you might just win over your neighbor when they see you care. That way you don’t have to worry about them slitting your throat taking your stuff.

  63. TR from CA says:

    My child, my responsibility. I would not seek revenge as it would have been my failure. However, that is why I prep and learned skills to survive. The one thing that bothers me is the entitlement culture that is going on. These people believe that what you have, they should have. It is a sad state. And regarding some of the comments regarding what God would want, I don’t think God would want me to lay down and let someone kill me and do who knows what to my wife and child because it is the Christian thing to do. I do not bend over for anyone. So I would not look for trouble. I would not steal or kill to grow my own wealth of supplies. But I will defend my family and my property until my last breath. And if that means putting someone between the sights, then I pray for the strength to do the unthinkable, and that my aim is true.

  64. Tomthetinker says:

    MD .. Gawd bless you. Ya musta stuck a hot poker in every nerve the Pack … Had. Then … that would be one point o the exercise. I gotta go soak some of my parts now .. its late.

  65. Benjammin says:

    It’d their stuff, they earned it, they can do with it as they please. If my kid dies from hunger, that’s on them and me. This person who refused to parlay with me owes me nothing, nor I him. He should be as free to live his life, make his preparations, and live with his decisions as I am.

  66. RB in Alabama says:

    I find it interesting that everyone assumes the person who has a lot of food has come by it honestly. What if it was a warlord, or crime boss, or your local community leaders deciding that your child wasn’tlikely to contribute and therefore shouldn’t eat? I’m betting the attitude would be quite different for most folks. Just saying…

    • hvaczach says:

      Well I would say if nothing else this card brought out some conversations. And I am glad for the most part we refrained from name calling. This scenario really evokes a emotional response because it challenges you spiritually, morally, and ethically. The really scary thing is if there is this much debate amongst preppers who for the most part carry a similar mindset how bad are the sheeple gonna be placed in the scenario!

  67. If my children cannot eat… it is my fault. If another man chooses not to shorten his family’s survival time in order to save my family… then he is smart… not greedy.

    Today… there are the Have’s and the Have-nots. Tomorrow… the Have’s will be the prepared and the Have-nots will be the unprepared.

    I will e prepared… and I will defend what I have from the un-prepared.

  68. Lee from La says:

    The answer, in my opinion, is yes and yes. I’d like to think better of myself. I’m also certain action would have been taken before my child starved to death.
    We stand prepared and hope this would never happen. But, given the scenario, yes and yes.

  69. Tactical G-Ma says:

    Just dawned on me, screaming Sam Kennison, rip, had a skit about the starving people in the awful drought in Africa. “Send em money? Hell, send em luggage!”
    I can’t imagine just hanging around watching my child die then blaming someone else for it. And yes, children are more apt to die from poor nutrition than starvation.
    I do believe in compassion and caring for the weak but I also know that the stronger of the species must survive for the species to survive.
    Would I seek revenge on someone else for not feeding my child?
    There are many who will. Prepare for that.
    Many rely on someone else to feed their children now.

    • TGMa,
      Isn’t that the truth…then the kids think that it is normal to rely on someone else and we have multiple generations of families who never took care of themselves or their own. It is a sad state commentary.

  70. Tomthetinker says:

    CorpseKiller63: Sir. This indeed should not have turned into a “pissing match”. Taken in context and even in the context of the card / rhetorical question for the week, this week brought out the Dark Side of the lot of us. My comment on an unreadable tattoo on a clenched bicep was out of place. For that sort of short sightedness and rudness you have my apologies. That ‘we’ have both paid our dues in the same growing club is another matter that should not raise either of our opinions, as more valid, above the others.

    I believe … we can all dwell in the dark thoughts that this weeks ‘card’ brought up. I believe that if .. I .. have done my job, my preps, my skills training and maintained a fair degree of situational awareness that gives me a true perspective … that I and mine will stand with better odds of avoiding this Hobbson’s choice. Odds … odds are that few of us will be the ones building that ‘shinning new village’ after TEOTWAWKI. I believe the conclusions many of us have expressed, is a subtle surrender of our collective God granted free will and ‘rights’ to life, liberty and pursuit of any hope of happyness.

    It is accepting the Dark Side as a back up plan and if we decide to de-evolve to that level then the Dark Ages is what we have earned … again. I believe .. it is the loss of Hope.

    And so end the Homely for today…………… TTT

  71. I don’t generally like the way the “christian” comes out of people during these scenarios!
    What everyone who uses the “christian” card forgets is PEOPLE,In the most basic form, ARE ANIMALS, like any other mammal and will do what it takes to survive when the TSHTF, just as we do now. Do I like my job-NO, but I have to do it to survive and provide food, shelter and clothing for my family. If TSHTF then I would do what I had to then as well.
    Some one stated above “how long would your ill gotten gains last?” Well, How long would your preps last? 6 months? a year? two years? Well, then what- You are forced to forage, steal or a little of both to continue feeding yourself and your children. Unless you are so godly as to have 40 or 50 years worth of preps put away!. No matter how much you prep IT WILL RUN OUT or maybe be stolen from you by a mindless violent mob.
    If you play the “christian” card and say it is “god’s will” if the child dies Then you are a fool following a fool. ANY GOD whose plan involves a child dying is NOT a god I would place my undying faith and devotion in. We had a case here in Pennsylvania a little while back where a newborn, just hours old, was crushed to death with a cinderblock BY HIS FATHER because they “couldn’t afford” another baby- A GOD THAT ALLOWS THIS IS AS GUILTY AS THE FATHE RIN THIS CHILDS DEATH!! Oh, I know here it comes, “That was the devils fault” Right? That “everything good taht happens is gods fault and the bad things are the devil’s fault” excuse does NOT hold water. Too one sided. God is supposed to be all knowing, loving and all powerful right, well there ya go champ, could’ve stopped it and didn’t!!! God allows child rapists- He/She is just as guilty. God allows child murderers- Just as guilty.
    It is not about whether I believe a god exists or doesn’t, that point is irrelevant. I simply refuse to put blind faith in child rapists and murderers ( Not to mention the whoile pedophile priest thing)
    Bottom line here is – In a SHTF scenario, If you do not do all you can (whether you’ve prepped or not) to ensure the survival and prosperity of your children then you are at fault for their death. That may mean to rob, steal, kill, forage, hunt ETC. Those who refuse to accept these very real possibilities will not survive.
    Someone also mentioned “charity bags”, Yea, how many million of those are you willing to make to hand out to the mass hoardes wandering around??? NOT FEASIBLE!!

    • Plus remember, “Christianity” has only been around for about 2,000 years. People have been killing, stealing, foraging and surviving for a lot longer than that! Were they all wrong and in hell now? Didn’t your “god” provide them with the skills and tools to do that and thrive? Organized religion is the most Hypocritical bunch of people I ever saw!!

      • Tactical G-Ma says:

        Spudweb,
        Religion dates back to the time of self-awareness. In every society there are rules. The society rules in my neighborhood are Judeo-Christian in origin. Even the Muslim, Buddhists, and Hindus in my neighborhood have adopted the rules of this society.
        For many of us who were raised in a religious environment we are programmed that way and find great comfort in believe in Divine Existence.
        You have the right to not believe. If I didn’t have my Family in Heaven, I would feel very alone and vulnerable.

        • Encourager says:

          Troll alert.

          • Tactical G-Ma says:

            Enc,
            Did you catch Matilda Morgan under Q and A?

          • Because I disagree with hiding behind religion I’m a troll?? I agree MORALS and VALUES must be basis for rules But all major religions seem completely hypocritical to me. Christianity being the worst! The Spanish inquisitions, where you were burned at the stake for not believing enough?!? Really? The Crusades and It’s ‘convert to our religion or die’ attitude?! Really? Not to mention the genocide committed by “Missionaries” upon so many Native tribes I can’t even list them all here? Rapes of little children by priests then covered up and allowed to continue by the Vatican?! YOU are OK WITH ALL THAT, but wouldn’t kill in a SHTF scenario to ensure the survival of your children?? THAT is hypocrisy! So Judge me as a troll if you must (Judge not lest ye be judged? Guess not) because I state historical fact. Just stop hiding behind hypocrisy!!

            • Rider of Rohan says:

              Yeah, you say that MORALS and VALUES must be basis for rules, after you’ve advocated robbing, stealing, and killing. Yeah, you’re a troll, the worst of trolls. That hypocrite word you like using so much, look in the mirror, there’s one of the worst staring right back at you.

            • Encourager says:

              Yes, you are a troll, Spudweb. Why? Because you come on this site and cause trouble, mocking people, insulting people, being a real jerk. To you, it is your way or the highway.

              Have a nice trip.

              Time is too short to waste time reading garbage you write. We are here to share ideas on how to prep, how to survive while holding onto our morals and beliefs, supporting each other, helping each other.

            • Spud web,
              Believe it or not, I am a Christian and I am not personally responsible for any atrocities. I draw great strength from my faith in God, as do many of the Wolf Pack. When I do make a mistake, I find comfort in my faith. I am sorry if you don’t have that in your life.
              What makes the pack special is that we care about one another. We enjoy the discussion, often learning from one another. Many of us also have a strong faith in God, but never excuse awful things that Christians may have done.
              If you find Christians so abhorrent, this might not be a happy place for you to hang out.
              Take care.

        • I have no issue with your belief. Believe what you wish and I support that CHOICE fully. I am simply stating that the people who state here that they would let there children die in the name of a god, any god, when they could do something to prevent it Are way off center, lying to us and themselves.

    • Rider of Rohan says:

      Wow, what a screed. If you believe the things you just said, why do you even bother to prep is the question I ask of you? And maybe you don’t, but if you do, you just gave anyone who didn’t prep the moral right(since need is apparently a fundamental right in your mind) to kill you for your supplies. And if you don’t, you just said you have the right to kill them for theirs. As for Christians and God, you are very confused or misinformed, and I’ll leave it at that.

    • Spudweb,
      How long would my preps last? Hopefully long enough to get the small scale gardening and livestock converted to a larger scale farming operation. It’s the reason those of us who are serious about this, are trying to become as self reliant as possible. Once you no longer have to go to that job you hate (or in my case, like), then your job becomes a full time operation keeping the food production and security in place, which I suspect will be much harder (and more important) than anything you’ve done in life up to this point.
      If your plan is simply stockpiling all you need, then you are by definition going to fail, period.

    • Encourager says:

      Spudweb, your rabid hatred towards God stuns me. Why are you blaming God for what humans do? He gave us a free will, for good or for evil. It is a choice you make. For good or for evil. My faith is in God, not “child rapists and murderers…and pedophile priest(s)”.

      You are one deceived, angry person.

      • “You are one deceived, angry person”
        I could say the same regarding you fellow human. Christians and priests believe that “God has a plan” I’m simply stating that if your “god has a plan” and that plan involves the things that occur here (Child rapes, murders, inquisitions, genocides in the name of religion, ETC) THen that is not any type of entity I would place my blind faith and obedience in. People hide behind religion in many many ways ( Muslims to commit terror, Christians to commit genocide- IT HAS HAPPENED IN MANY CASES AND IS HISTORICAL FACT) and hiding behind religion is hypocrisy. I am a moral person with a strong set of values and beliefs and a good human. I have placed myself in work which involves service to mankind ( I may have spoke to hastily when I said I hated my job, Burned out a bit ma have been more appropriate) for the last 25 years. I did not need religion or blind faith to accomplish that. Morals and values are key and they were instilled by my parents. We all have the innate right and wrong we don’t need to hide behind religion or use it as a crutch or excuse. Those of organized religion ALWAYS tend to be the most judgemental while preaching ‘Judge not lest ye be judged’. If you cannot admit that GREAT atrocities haev been and continue to be committed in the name of most world organized religions then I’m sorry for your blindness. Have a great day sir or Ma’am

  72. Encourager says:

    If my child starved to death, the blame would be on me, not my neighbor. It I did not plan well and did not prep for my family, shame on me. Good luck living with THAT guilt! Each of us is responsible for providing for our own.

    If we lost all in a fire or were robbed of all we had, hopefully I would be able to go to where I have stashed more supplies. Putting all your “eggs” in one basket is foolish. But frankly, that is exactly where they are right now in my home…once it thaws out and we dig out from this latest storm (ice, slush then over 7 inches of fresh snow in the past 12 hours) I need to remedy that. I know that my son has already stashed stuff on our property when we were on vacation and he was staying here. But where it all is???

    If the situation were reversed and I had extra food to spare, I would help my neighbor. But that is just the way I am.

    Why would I plan revenge when it was my own fault? Sadly, that is what our society does. It is NEVER their fault, they ALWAYS find someone/something else to blame.

    • Encourager;
      You need a map to those hidden gems, an a back up map just in case you loose the original.

      • Encourager says:

        No kidding, Becky! You would think the kid would have TOLD us where he buried the goodies! He has them all under GPS spots. Sigh…

        • Encourager;
          Remind dear child…….ah what if the GPS is no longer working. Then how do we find the stores?? I like most think technology is great, but still believe in the old backup of paper and ink….yesssery.
          Hope all is well with you and yours.

    • Donna in MN says:

      I would recommend a big hollow tree or under brush pile. When we up north bury something in the ground, we have to wait until May to get it.

      • Encourager says:

        LOL, Donna! Yep, no way we can ‘dig’ anything out until the thaw. Buried under ice and a few feet of snow still.

  73. Why is your daughter dying of starvation? Can’t you hunt, trap or fish? Did you not prepare? How can you be mad at a person who prepared and used their supplies better than you did?

    You are responsible for your daughter, no one else. By the way why is she dying of starvation and your still able to fight with a neighbour about food? You should feed your daughter when you feed yourself.
    This is what is wrong with our country-take responsibility for your family and yourself.

  74. 19Pinky67 says:

    I can see where the urge to take revenge would be mighty tempting to many people. But, no, I would not plot revenge. The responsibility to provide for my family lies with me, not some random stranger who refused to barter. If I have dropped the ball badly enough that my family starts dying off, I deserve to be griefstricken and miserable.

  75. Riverwood says:

    Ohio Prepper

    I totally agree, my “preps” are to last just long enough for the violent “golden hoards” to die off so I can plant & harvest my gardens, fish the river and hunt the back country in a semblance of peace. Stored food is only tier 1 and only a short term solution. Tier 2 is farming and aquaculture.
    I’m not a religious man, but I sure am a spiritual man – it has given me strength and fortitude in some very dark and trying times. I believe that the base roots of all religions have common threads that are innate to all human beings – going back to the earliest cavemen and that murder has always been taboo in every society.
    There will be times when killing will be necessary to save you and yours, but murder will never be acceptable and will always be followed by retribution of some sort – at some time.
    We are all headed for some very dark times that may last a generation or more, it’s important to plan now how we will come out the other side and what kind of a world we will rebuild for our children’s children’s children and most importantly who will populate it. (tier 3)

  76. hvaczach says:

    WOW, just read the entire thread and I am still swirling! this one really seemed to spark some enthusiastic commentary! Well I hope we can all keep it in perspective and continue the great dialogue, idea sharing, and terrible jokes we usually pass along. Until tomorrow then keep it real pack.

    • Encourager says:

      And it has brought back the trolls…

      • hvaczach & Encourager;
        I must have overlooked something……..who is Waltzing Matilda?? Can you direct me to where I missed this comment that called out the “troll alert”? thanks

        • Becky,
          You didn’t direct the question to me but look at the Q&A about compatiable spouse.

  77. Sagewolf says:

    The scenario does not say is the person or group were bad people, but if they were I would not have a problem removing an evil Warlord. If all they have is stolen from someone else by force they don’t get any mercy.

    If they are good people then I hope I would be able to accept their decision and focus on keeping the rest of my family alive.

    Someone mentioned the Dark Ages earlier .When SHTF happens I fear we will make that dark age seem like a speed bump. Their are so many more people alive now then Then. I think man will become like a swarm of locusts eating everything in sight or wasting it because they don’t have the knowledge to use it right.

    • Tactical G-Ma says:

      Sagewolf,
      Certainly part of grief is hate. And there are a great many people being provided for by our government who will feel entitled to anything the rest of us have. We will “owe” them.

      I have no qualms about taking up arms against evil forces. I have always believed it our duty to fight those who threaten a healthy society. Of course, to fight in vain, to seek revenge, to let emotions over power good sense, will do no good.

      And yes, the dark ages, covered a smaller population. But, the plague reduced the European population by half. So immediately we will see the die off of those being kept alive by technology, diabetics for example. Disease and pestilence will co-exist with mal-nutrition and starvation. Accidental death will soar as people attempt projects they are new to. Someone brought up how dangerous farming is.
      Then of course comes childbirth and the dangers we have forgotten because they are rare except in the worst of the undeveloped countries. And eventually, an epidemic. Unless planes and/or trade routes are still active, they will be contained. But just like smallpox, even blankets can carry death. The evolution of the new normal, I think, will go very fast the first year then settle into whatever habitable routine possible.
      My point is that the populations of metropolitan areas already far exceed sustainability. Die off will go pretty fast. The days of the locusts will be relatively short. I’ve read and believe that living within 200 mi. of an interstate hwy will be the worst effected because scavengers will follow the path of least resistance. But so many from the cities won’t make it far. The first few months some of us will be wishing zombies were the problem.
      Deer in places like the Poconos and Long Island will probably disappear farely quickly. The waters around the coastal areas will initially be picked cleaned.
      Of course, it’s only my opinion.

      • Tactical G-Ma,
        I could not have said it any better. There will be a quick die off as there are many people being kept alive because of meds and technology. Unfortunately there will also be many who because they are off of their meds will become extremely violent! I am thinking that after 12 to 18 months we will come to a new normal and a more stable civilization.

        • Tactical G-Ma says:

          Brenda,
          Seems like a lot of the non-fiction books I’ve read agree with your estimation

      • I agree if they were bad people it would be best to wait until you have other people to help you. Rushing in to get revenge will most likely cause your death. Only attack when your odds of survival are good.