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Most books on survival and relocation, suggest retreating to a western state, such as Idaho, Montana or Oregon - dismissing the eastern states all together.
With population density being the main augment against those eastern states.
This maybe good advice from a tactical standpoint, but the truth is most of us can’t (or won’t) move. Familiarity, work and family keep us close to our roots, relocation can be a shock to the senses and most of us won’t do it.
Moving out west and becoming one with the community takes time, a luxury I don’t think we have at this point. You’ll be an outsider in a strange place, which is not a good place to be now or after tshtf.
And let’s not forget the stress that comes with making such a move. Just because you’re ready to move across the country doesn’t mean your wife / husband and children will be.
Most relocation advice and books are simply a waste of words that will never put to action. As a majority we stay near what we know, only venturing out occasionally for a short period of time.
If you’re in the eastern part of the U.S. chances are you’ll stay there for whatever reason, but all is not lost – you may still survive.
My recommendation for retreat areas in the eastern part of the country would be eastern Kentucky and Tennessee mainly because these are the areas I’m most familiar with.
I want to know what you think – in your opinion and experience what are your recommendations for retreat areas in the eastern U.S. and why?
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I think something to consider when choosing an Eastern retreat is where everyone else will decide to go.
Lets say you’re the typical suburbanite with no real skill other than knowing the nearest Starbucks or how to defrag a harddrive. If you are this person, where will you go when TSHTF? Determining where these people will go will have a lot of effect on your decision for a retreat location.
Is your community too survival friendly? Will they pass you by (taking what they need along the way) in search of greener pastures or will they set up camp?
… and what’s wrong with defragging the hard drive at Starbucks? It’s the ultimate survival meeting place! Wait a minute, I work on Macs so I don’t have those problems. :-)
I agree that you want to be far from the urban cowboys.
Yes, the urban location is not the place to be, that’s why I have my escape routes planned, my old motorhome always ready – food, gas & water, with my trailer and cars on the ready. All supplies are in rubberized boxes and accessible.
Fortunately, I spent many years living in a survivalist type lifestyle throughout my late teens to late 20′s. I know how to live on nearly nothing but wit which, is questionable.
I am jealous of those of you who live rural, it is a more desirable lifestyle there’s a lot of value being away from the almighty buck chasers.
anywhere on the shores of the great lakes means all the water you’ll ever need and plenty of fish.
Hi Dan,
I certainly agree with you. We live on Lake Erie. The only problem is that most of the shoreline is filled with homes, parks, or off limits. I live one block from the lake, and if things got bad, it might be scary to go through the neighborhood carrying water or fish. Might need an armed bodyguard. There may be some areas more accessable, but eveyone would be searching those out, probably. Now if one had a BOAT, it might be better, but others would still be watching what you’re bringing in. (at least here,anyway.)
We live on a small farm in Lancaster county, PA; and while not perfect, it does have the advantage of having a very large Amish population. In the event of a societal disruption, chances are they won’t even notice. The area is lightly populated to begin with, and the wealth of knowledge with primitive tools (not to mention the availability of them) would be very valuable.
It is a bit too close to major population centers for my liking, but that also provides the opportunity for good paying jobs while still being “in the country”. If you need to “bug-out”, Western PA is very remote and is only 1-2 hours away. That’s 1-2 hours now, in good circumstances, but nevertheless it is close enough that you should be able to find a way to get there.
Just my .02
I agree that the Amish will make valuable allies in a grid-down scenario. And knowing their temperament, they will most likely be eager to help. The only potential problem will be the throngs of people trying to join them in order to survive. Their small population might not be able to handle the sudden influx of new “friends”.
I read elsewhere that WTSHTF the Amish, as a valuable resource,
will probably be under the “protection” of either a powerful
inner-city gang (The Philadelphia Police Department?) or some other benevolent armed protective force that will restrict access to Amish
farm products (i.e. food). This because as everyone knows the Amish will not use guns to protect themselves or their property and will be ripe for takeover. Most likely non-Amish living amongst them will be
encouraged to move elsewhere or die. The Amish will become the aphid
people of who ever can keep them. How interesting that will be.
My friends and I have had extensive conversations about this in the past. Because we live in three separate states (FL, NC, and NV) the question has always been “Which place is best and how do we get there?” The conclusion I’ve come to is this: What’s the first thing they tell you in a survival manual if you get lost or are in an accident? STAY PUT. Don’t go anywhere without pointing out the direction you went so that rescuers can find you, etc.
In the event of a catastrophe, I can imagine that travel would be very difficult for even the most prepared individual. An EMP, and Earthquake, a Tornado, Hurricane, mudslide, civil unrest, whatever it is, if your home is destroyed, and there’s nothing remaining for you there, it doesn’t mean you should hit the road and try to hoof it to another state, or even another part of your own state. The highways might be blocked, ruined, patrolled by hostiles, or simply inaccessible to your vehicle. But, can you really fit all of your survival stuff in your truck or car? Don’t you store these things in your home or some other local location? Why would you abandon that which you cannot carry in a situation where you may need to rely exclusively on your own stores for an extended period of time?
I’m from central Florida’s Space Coast. I was born here, and I’ll likely die here. I know every river, lake, stream, and pond. I know what things are safe to eat, which things are poisonous, where the fishing is good, how to catch a gator, which plants are which, etc. The only reason I would leave for good would be a nuclear blast or possibly a plague (but that would be as a LAST resort). A hurricane might destroy my house, but I’d rather set up a tent in my ruined back yard and pick through the rubble than leave with nothing.
Matt,
I live in the same area. I am originally from Michigan and nothing would ever get me to go back. I lived south of Los Angeles fo 18 years and ditto on that for different reasons. I made myself a promise that I will never go north of Daytona This area may not be the best for survival but it is better than most. we have plenty of water, fish (gill nets in the Indian river) game, and 2 growing seasons. I am well into retirement but have been preparing for TEOTWAWKI SINCE 911. A that time I owned one little .380. and maybe 3 weeks of food. I now have 40 guns in 9 calibers, 1ooK rounds of ammo, high end archery equipment, 4 years of non perishable food for 4 people, a huge garden and plenty of fruit trees. I have been able to help some neighbors prepare, get concealed carry permits, arm up etc. Most of my friends work at the space center but it’s on the way out. Some know what is inevitable but most are still in lala land. The only thing that will probably get us here is if Orlando or the Trident Nuclear sub base at the port gets nuked. There is no way I can deal with winter any more but Florida without electricity is hell in the summer. There are many things that can put this country back in the stone age very quickly, it’s just a matter of what and when. Meanwhile life will go on day to day, but time is running out.
“The only reason I would leave for good would be a nuclear blast or possibly a plague (but that would be as a LAST resort).”
I guess you’ll need to add “oil rig disaster” to the list now.
If you have ever been to or through PA. you will note how rugged and exstenive the state is. There are mountains that rivel the Alps and forest that are deep, dark and mysterious. If I had to get from somewhere on the eastcoast PA would be my choice. I think there are places in PA where no man has ever been or left a footprint. As I live in Ky. I guess I will just stay here…but thoses mountains are alluring. I think I must be part wildwoman.
I know jack-all about the Eastern US, but if you’re looking to retreat in southern Ontario, I suggest either Bruce or Hastings counties. Bruce county is a peninsula sticking out into Lake Huron, and about as far from Ontario’s larger population centres as you can get while remaining in the south. Hastings county is closer to urban areas, http://www.hastingscounty.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=129&Itemid=101 , but the farming areas are surrounded by the rock of the canadian shield. Not something people are going to want to hike through to get to you.
I’m with you in choosing to remain in Ontario. Lots of very postive things about it. Winters are relatively mild on the whole with enough snow pack to ensure that there is water year-round. Again anything that is more than 100 miles from the US border or a large urban centre is a good place to start looking. Lots of land to be had. Lots of game, fishing, birds for hunting – more canada geese than you could ever eat…
Our gang issues are mostly limited to the major urban centres. They are largely ethnicly based and there is relatively little spill-over into the wider community.
The only areas that I would give a wide berth too is the land around the Native reserves. I would expect that when the SHTF that they will reclaim disputed lands and they would likely prevail as they are generally better prepared and certainly on the whole more capable of living off the land than the majority of the non-Native population.
In ’05, on the advice of several of the “retreat/relocation” sites and manuals, I bought an Airsteam, packed up the kids, and moved from Phx, AZ to the Kenai peninsula of AK. Here is what I learned:
1: The farther north you go, the colder it gets. This translates directly to more time spent procuring wood. I knew one man who heated with wood only, and he went through a cord of wood every two weeks to heat his small cabin. 2 cords/month x 8 months of winter= a heck of a lot of wood. All other fuels had to be trucked in, are expensive, and so are not reliable in an emergency situation. (Oh, and remember, propane stops gassing at -40. If you are depending on it, you will freeze. Happened to me in the Airstream.)
2: Trying to grow enough food to keep a family fed through a long winter, in AK’s short of a growing season, is impossible without outside restocking. And resorting to greenhouses doubles the problem mentioned in #1.
3: If one is trying to self-sufficiently homestead, including gardening, canning, hunting, slaughtering, collecting wood, keeping the wood-stove going, run a house and homeschool your children, there are not enough hours in the day or days in the year. Add in trying to build a house in AK’s short building season (existing houses are insanely expensive), and for one person with children, it just is not do-able.
and
4: Mistakes can be expensive. This applies to mis-judging the climate (which can cost you your life), as well as monetarily.
After a year of beating my head against the wall of “You Must Relocate To The Wilds Of The West”, I re-gained my sanity and started looking for somewhere else. My requirements were: at least 10 acres with a creek or river on property, existing well, readily available fuel (wood or coal), fairly warm climate but with four distinct seasons and not too hot of summers (zone 6 or 7), not in a bad tornado/hurricane/earthquake area, at least 60 miles from the nearest large city, homeschool friendly, neighbors who mind their own business instead of trying to mind yours, and a house in useable condition. And it all had to be cheap enough to buy for cash.
Eastern KY fit the bill beautifully. I got everything I was looking for, in a nice area, 12 miles from the nearest small town, 2 hours from the nearest large city, with an acre cleared and 9 acres in trees/brush for my goats, and a couple of coal seams, all for $20K. I heat all winter (from late-Oct thru mid-March) with wood, with a coal lump at night, and only use about 4-5 cord of wood total each year. There is a large homeschool group here, more educational and fun things to do than I expected, and the people (for the most part) are wonderful. There are LOTS of men out here who open-carry, and there is wild game everywhere.
If relocating on a budget, I suggest eastern KY.
Great post, thank you. I have a good friend who bought a lot of raw property in KY and echos your findings. Where did you find the land – any particular website??
Realtor.com
Another great site to see land deals is: http://www.landandfarm.com
Really useful post Catherine. Thanks!
When you are looking to relocate/homestead with children, you really have to look after their needs too. I think that this gets under-discussedin the planning process.
Hi Catherine,
Kentucky is beautiful. I’ve been through it, and really liked the greenery and mountains. I live in northern Ohio, and it’s really green here, too. Hot summers, cold winters, and lots of snow.
I’ve lived out west and missed the lush trees and grass..awful! Rattlers, tarantulas, scorpions..(Lions and Tigers and Bears! LOL)
I’ve got friends in KY. Might have to go see them if things get bad. Thanx!
I’d take lions and tigers and bears over rattlers, tarantulas and scorpions any day. A lion can’t hide in your boot or under a rock.
Very true.LOL
Also, I heard recently that less than 5% of the North American continent is populated, which means that if you live anywhere outside of Manhattan, an unspoiled wilderness is not too far away. In John Stossel’s last book, he cites a statistic that said that if the entire human population of the planet were confined to an area the size of Texas, the population density would be about the same as NYC, which is not the most densely populated city by a long shot.
So, there’s plenty of places to go that aren’t far away from you. Unless you live in a big city, in which case, you’re just askin’ for it.
Rawles criteria on retreats (dont focus on locations- mostly west and central US, but look at criteria).
http://www.survivalblog.com/retreatareas.html
After that, fire up GoogleEarth and start mapping. That’s what I did- and found plenty in my home state of AL. My primary concerns- low population, not on an interstate, near water.
Cajun: I live in S.E. Ala. what are your best choices on retreat areas? I prefer the areas in E. Ala but realize W. AL is less pop. We live in a city of 100,000 right in town with all the perks. Who will guard our city houses when shtf?? (Many won’t leave their house) Thanks
I like the N.E. around Dekalb and Jackson counties.
You make some excellent points, MD. While a survival retreat in the Rocky Mountains would be ideal for survival in a TEOTWAWKI scenario, it poses several challenges for most people:
- Cost to purchase property and move
- Unfamiliarity with the region (this can be a major tactical disadvantage)
- Difficulty fitting in with the locals
- Difficulty finding work (where there are few people there are few jobs)
- Distance from friends and family
Even for those of us who could afford a retreat out there (not me), it wouldn’t do much good if you don’t actually live there or nearby. IMHO, if you can’t get from your home to your retreat on one full tank of gas or walk to it within a few days (assuming roads are impassable or vehicles inoperable), then your retreat is too far away to be of practical use. The best option, of course, is to live in your retreat or make your home your retreat. This is the only financially viable option for most of us as well.
It seems to me that the only scenario where living close (within a couple hundred miles) to a large population center would be a danger is in a full grid-down TEOTWAWKI scenario. If the cities are completely unlivable, people will spread out. Even in the largest recent disasters (Katrina, Haiti, etc.) most people tended to stay in the city and wait for help than venture out into the unknown. Those who did leave usually had a specific place to go, such as with friends or family.
My point is that people tend to stick to what they know, particularly in a stressful situation. We should too. I would definitely recommend staying out of cities and dense population centers, as this is where riots and other major problems are likely to develop, but even being 20 miles out of town will put you further than most people will be willing to venture in most situations. Plus, you will likely have more land on which to garden, collect firewood, etc.
I have spent most of my life in the northeast. I grew up and currently reside in upstate NY. I have also spent a few years in Massachusetts. From a prepper standpoint, I probably couldn’t choose worse places to live (yes I could, NYC or SoCal), but it’s where life has led me.
The northeastern US has a lot to offer as a survival location. There is abundant freshwater, fertile soil, dense forests full of deer and other critters, and a temperate climate, although we do get a lot of snow in the winter. It’s not hard to grow most fruits and vegetables. In fact, New York State is the second largest producer of apples in the US (after Washington State).
The problem with the northeast is the people. Not individually, just the sheer numbers. The New York City metro area has nearly 18 million people. Add to that 5 million in Philadelphia, 4 million in Boston and a few million more distributed among smaller cities, towns and villages. That’s a lot of people to potentially come streaming through your yard when TSHTF. The other problem with the northeast is government. Try as I might to change things, we keep putting the wrong people into office. Governments around here tend to go high on taxes and regulation, low on gun rights and personal freedom. Not the ideal mix for most preppers. The good news is that if things continue as they are now, within a few decades most intelligent people will have left the region, the remaining governments will implode, those dependant on government will die or have to relocate, and the area will be suitable for re-colonization.
Weighing the pros and cons, here are my thoughts on the northeastern states that I am most familiar with, from a survival retreat perspective:
NY – A good possibility northeast of Binghamton; I would stay far away from New York City. NY has very restrictive gun laws within the NYC metro area, but is more relaxed in the rest of the state (although still a “may issue” state). Taxes are high. The western part of the state is more than 300 miles from the NYC and has some lovely and fairly remote areas. The Adirondack State park (larger than Yellowstone) has a lot of remote wilderness and is fairly far from NYC, but is a popular camping and hiking area and would probably be the number one destination for city folk looking to “rough it” and live off the land. Adirondack winters are also severe. Your best bet is probably the western Finger Lakes region (south of Rochester and Buffalo). This area is mostly farm land with plentiful lakes and rivers.
CT – No part of CT is far from a large city. It is also a very costly state to live in. Gun laws are restrictive, with “may issue” permits expiring every five years. Personally, I think you can do better than CT for a survival retreat, even in the northeast.
RI – See CT. RI is listed as a “shall issue” state, but the AG can use discretion in issuing permits and some local agencies try to make the process “may issue”. You can do better.
MA – Very restrictive gun laws. Residents require a permit even to purchase long guns. Taxes and cost of living are high. The population is dense. MA is a great place to visit, and an even better place to live if you’re on the far left of the political spectrum. For the prepared individual, it is best to look elsewhere.
VT – A northeastern survival location top pick. VT does not require a license to own or carry and handgun. Northern VT is sufficiently far from any major city to consider it “safe” in a grid-down scenario. The state is mostly farmland, and would probably make a very good survival location.
NH – A northeastern survival location top pick. The “Live Free or Die” state (I considered moving here just for the license plates) has no income tax and is a “shall issue” state with a simple, inexpensive issuing process. Much more sensible than their southern neighbors, many MA residents have escaped to southern NH. I would recommend the more remote northern end of the state for survival purposes.
ME – A northeastern survival location top pick. Maine is a “shall issue” state. The state is covered in lakes and the residents are generally down to earth. Northern Maine is the most remote part of the eastern US. The entire state (except the southern tip) is more than 300 miles from New York City. The furthest extreme is 500 miles from Boston, the nearest large US city. In fact, the closest big city to northern Maine is Quebec, Canada.
Conclusion – For shear remoteness, Maine is your best bet for a survival retreat in the northeastern US. If remoteness isn’t your biggest concern, then Vermont or New Hampshire would make a good location. Western NY would be my next choice. As always, pay attention to local laws, taxes and politics. As long as you keep some distance between yourself and any large population centers, you should be fine in most situations.
A well thought out yet extremely verbose response – clearly you have too much time on your hands (as do I since I read it).
hey- this is why I read the comments! Many of these comment-writers have a wealth of info.
Things have been slow at the office this week.
Maine is not as “Down to Earth” as it used to be. Maine has been overrun by an influx of city people from NY, DC (retired feds) and other urban areas. They have not left their city views at the border. Expect restrictive gun laws and a generally snide attitude towards natives and other “Flannel” clad people.
Natives are largely regulated anymore to serving the portfolio people coffee.
My native state. Heartbreaking.
I know the topic is limited to the eastern US, but I wonder if any readers have thoughts about Arkansas, the Ozark area?
Greetings. I was once going to move to the northern part of Arkansas and while checking it out i found that the people there were the friendliestt I found in any state I have been in. lot of fishing available in the Corps of Engineers lakes. lot of land and not much population density. not much big game to hunt. but lots of small game. taxes aren’t bad and homeschooling is common. but then i think my converting to being a back to the lander from a hard right Marine colors my impression of the state. Beautiful weather but tornados are a bugger. good luck in your search though and Arkansas is definitely a good choice.
Mid-Atlantic – 4 seasons, but easily survivable winters (usually above freezing) and tolerable summers (versus deep south/Florida).
Far away from large bodies of water (oceans, I don’t care to be around the great lakes or major rivers) to avoid floods, plenty of inland waterways (minor rivers/creeks/lakes/ponds)
Generally abundant farmable land
Hard and soft wood trees
Montaine areas can be found, not as rugged as rockies, but offer many dells and valleys to offer protection, many national and state preserved land areas.
Best picks, IMHO:
NC, SC, WV, KY, TN
Avoid heavy urban areas or military deployment/logistics centers:
Northern VA (proximity to DC), Eastern VA (proximity to Quantico & Norfolk)
Atlanta basin of GA
There’s a lot to recommend my patch of the North Georgia Mountains, but if I were in a position to move a little further north into North Carolina, I would.
I’m presently at the outer limit of where I think the Mob fleeing Atlanta could reach (110 miles), but I wish it were a little farther. And the Atlanta Mob won’t, I think, be the starving hippies one might encounter outside of Asheville WTSHTF, it will be the Crips and MS-13.
I live in one of the most beautiful, remote areas of the United States – That great peninsula of land, known as the Upper Peninsula of Michigan (the “U.P.” to locals). Our northern border is Lake Superior, our southern border is the beautiful Brule-Menominee River which flows into the Green Bay of Lake Michigan. We have many affordable vacant land parcels, as well as inexpensive cabins up here. For those who need to make “an escape to the cities” once in awhile, “Yoopers” only have to travel about 365 mile south to Chigago, 245 to Milwaukee, or 310 miles to Minneapolis. I live on a beautiful 350 acre lake, and I drive on woods lined highways, passing by over a half dozen other lakes on my 33 mile drive to work each day. It doesn’t get any better than this – You might want to check this area out! Yooper Girl
Amen!
Greetings. i lived in the Thequamenon wilderness area for some time. if you want to move there it is good to remember that the U.P. is mainly sand. it is the tailings of the great Wisconsin glacier that melted after the last ice age. where i lived, outside of Paradise Michigan the land then was cheap. problem was you could grow near nothing without a lot of expensive work to build soil. winters are brutal, actually usually harder then the winters in Alaska with the winds right out of the arctic rushing down. snow fall? in Paradise it was a average of 250 inches of snow a season. employment is near to non existent since the mines closed down and the railroads left as well. But it sure is peaceful and there is nothing like living in a cabin and having it below zero in the total quiet of the area and having timber wolves come to sing for you in the middle of the night. I miss it. if you can stand the solitude and lack of aminities like electric power or roads other then the major highways it is a really beautiful area to live in. But note. Lake Superior is contaminated with mining waste from the iron mines. the waste contains asbestos as super fine near neutral boyancy so they simply get suspended in the water. the entire lake is contaminated with it and they say it will be about 20,000 years before it clears. makes getting water a little iffy. Also the iron deposits and copper deposits under the land make the drinking water questionable in many locations as well. lots of luck.
LOL, Richard- are you trying to disuade people from the Great Lakes region with horror stories or what? This is just too funny.
I live within spitting distance of Lake Superior and drink the water all the time. No ill effects yet. No ill effects yet. No ill effects yet. No…
As to the mining operations and the underground deposits- there’s not enough leaching into the lakes and streams to cause any kind of concern. (In fact, I am more concerned with the chemicals being put in the water from all the medications people are using these days than anything natural. One of my favorite expressions is: “I don’t piss in your drinking water, you don’t piss in mine.” Simply due to the chemicals we ingest.)
Yup- few things better than sitting in the cabin when it’s thirty below, feet propped on the wood burner and listening to the wolves howl and the trees crack from frost expansion. Unless it’s going outside at thirty below and having the air sucked from your lungs by the cold. Or having your hands freeze to a block of wood you picked up cuz you wiped your runny nose.
I just love living in the Nation’s Ice Box.
Shy III
I’ve long since come to the conclusion that our cabin on the UP border with WI is a nonviable retreat location – sorry to say.
Water quality isn’t a concern. The winter will get you first.
Seriously (actually that was serious) any wilderness retreat is nonviable in the long term. There’s a good reason no one lives in these ares. It’s real hard living, and that’s with outside support. Without it, you’re dead when the food runs out. Anyone thinking of living off the land just has to remember the early part of the 20th century. After market hunting for a few years (with a very small population) there were almost no game animals left. After Armageddon deer will be a memory. Best to have a small herd of cattle.
The one good thing about the UP winters is the heavy snow pack. Without snow plows and snow shoes, the chance of getting raided during winter is low. Also, after the first winter the population will be so reduced that the survivors may have a chance to band together for the next winter.
Interesting… I would have thought that the Fond du Lac/Grand Portage/Rainy Lake area would have been a good area to go. Certainly in addition to the fish stocks there would be wild rice and cranberries. That area was central to the making of pemican throughout the fur trade period and after.
Hi Yooper, I went to a lake up there one time about twenty years ago, and the water was freezing in the summer, but it was one of the most beautiful small lakes I’ve ever seen. Had a white sand bottom, and was about thirty feet deep, and you could see the fish down there. The water was the prettiest color of turquoise. And you’re right, not too many people around, and lots of cabins in remote areas, and great forrests.
Are there any other areas in Michigan that anyone would suggest?
I have considered portions of SW Michigan, although the lake effect snow and the growing season worry me. Also, it may be a bit too close to Chicago. Michigan has cheap land right now, and this would be the best time to start planning.
As a chicago suburbanite, I am not ready to flee too far but like the idea of a retreat in SW MI or even Wisconsin, where it is remote. Any thoughts on SW MI or Wisconsin, preferably the southern portion of the state?
I and my group are from south central michigan and have a survival group community, organization that is centered up in Barry county. The land is good, there is still a number of mixed and hobby farms and a large Amish population. In addition if enough of us survivalist types locate our retreats in the same rough area we can mutually support each other and keep order and society going in a collapse.
Illinois in the NorthEastern Part of the state is very populated. Any bug out would have to take into account the HUGE horde of people migrating out of our urban city-centers…….. The western part of the state is a bit more remote, but it seems too flat for any serious LP/OP defense stances. A decision such as this (where to plan your retreat) can be a life or death scenario, and it should be taken very seriously.
James, When Chicago sh!ts out it’s horde of refugees, no-where within 200 miles will be safe. I personally don’t even drive through Illinois, and I feel sorry for any prepper who has the misfortune to live there. You can’t even buy a gun or ammo without a FOID, you can’t carry concealed at all, and the state is run by Chicago criminals. ‘nuf said. RUN, JAMES, RUN!!!!!
Jack you are right, as well as is the common consensus regarding Illinois I believe. We are considering two options, one) a complete move to another region, either Oregon or eastern Kentucky, or two) a location only a few hours from where we are, such as SW Michigan or SW Wisconsin. I like Wisconsin better, especially in the SW part of the state where there are plenty of hilly areas and its not so flat (and harder to defend). But Michigan also has a certain appeal, I have always LOVED it up there, it just seems so much more laid back, but not sure about the lake effect snow and from the topo maps it seems real flat.
In fact we are looking for a couple hundred acres on a big lake to move to, in a place that is remote and has all the criteria of a good survival retreat. If I can find that place then we will move outright, whether it is in OR, KY, MI, or WI, or somewhere else although logically speaking I HAVE to narrow my choice, I cant look everywhere.
What seems more realistic though, is finding a place only a few hours from here and setting up there. There are so many arguments for either, accessibility to the place when its time to get there, feasibility of setup (if its closer itll be easier to stock, build, maintain, etc. That would be SW Wisconsin closer to the Mississippi or somewhere in southwestern or south central Michigan. There are a TON of lakes in Wisonsin and I think its a bit under rated as a retreat locale, although I know it can get cold and of course I need to do more research. Oregon has lots of mountains, but that place could become volcanoland if there are massive earthquakes or solar flares. But then again, there were some MASSIVE earthquakes in Illinois in the beginning of the 1800s… Noone remembers them anymore but the research is scary… They actually made the Ol Miss flow backwards! Any type of ‘world change’ event could set off any number of series of events…….
I agree Illinois is not the best state but Im afraid if I pick up and leave I will not have the income to do all of these things. Not rich or not poor, my plan for our retreat will not be cheap… If I pick up and take the family across the country, we are going all out… Off the grid, solar electricty, wind power, etc etc. (a totally self sustained lifestyle or the advanced preparation for one)
The more I read and try to learn the more different facts are presented to me and the harder it is to make a choice. Obviously, since noone really knows what will happen or when (the 3% of us out there just know ‘something’ will happen and probably sooner rather than later) and with the flipping of the magnetic poles or even some drastic type of climate change event, all of our existing expectations (and hence planning readiness) could be out the window.
Just my thoughts!
I love the beauty of North Georgia (Helen, Dahlonega, etc.), but I would be cautious about entering areas that are already tight communities.
They may tolerate “outsiders” that visit and bring tourist dollars or offer hospitality as they stay with the assumption that they will leave soon, but in a SHTF scenario, may be hard pressed to be so gracious if it would possibly jeapordize their supply of materials or sanctity of community.
Different, of course, if you’re from that area – you’re already in the “circle of trust.”
The areas of concern in NC are Charlotte, Durham, and the I-95 corridor.
I’ve got enough friends and “practically family” friends in the rural surrounding areas of the suburban part of NC in which I live that our “bugging out” is really just a day’s forced-march hike at the worst.
I think that rugged individualism will get you far, but a good-old fashioned pioneer/patriot-spirited community will have the highest probability of surviving long-term. The more that interpersonal reliance is based on morality, trust, and work ethic the better. This is why Mennonite and Amish communities still exist and are so well situated to weather any storm that can be thrown at them.
Even better are the hutterite communities. All the closeknit benefits of amish and mennonites, without shunning modern tech
The South-West corner of Florida around Fort Myers.
Pros: Florida is very gun friendly, and a shall issue state. There is a 12 month growing season. There are only 3 nuclear power plants in the bottom 2/3rd’s of Florida and none within a hundred miles of Fort Myers. The way the wind blows, at least 6 months of the year you aren’t downwind of any nuclear power plants at all. There are no military targets. Land is relatively cheap for Florida. If you have to hand dig or spike a well, water is only about 10 feet down. The area is easily isolated from Miami & Tampa by blowing/blocking a couple of bridges. There are lots of wildlife and active produce farms. Lots of seafood and people with boats. Hurricanes scare off a lot of people, but they aren’t really a problem if your house has been built in the last 15 years and if you don’t live in a flood zone. If there is a natural or nuclear EMP, Florida will fare better than most states since it is farther South (natural) and far from most nuclear/EMP targets (D.C., NY, Central U.S.). In the event of a nuclear/volcanic winter or ice age, Florida will be warmer than most states. Almost everyone in Florida is a transplant, so people are accepted into communities quicker. Florida is not in a earthquake zone. There are a lot of old soldiers and people with knowledge of the old ways to help get things started again. The population density is high now with all the old retirees, but one month after SHTF the population will be a lot lower from lack of medication and air conditioning.
Cons: Hot during the summer. Possibility of some tropical diseases. Hurricanes can get you if you’re on the water or in a flood zone. If nobody blows or blocks the bridges, Miami is a little over a hundred miles away. If there is an event that causes a large tsunami, Florida will be in trouble – mitigate by buying your property at least 50 ft elevation above sea level.
I’ve not seen certain parts of FLA, but the parts I have seen were really sparse of greenery. I was really disappointed after hearing so many people brag about it. The best part to me was the great seafood. YUM!!
Read what happens to Florida in either the books, “Alas Babylon” or “One Second After.” IMHO, I personally would not consider Florida as a good retreat location.
I was born and raised in northern Minnesota. Then married and lived for 10 years in northern Wisconsin and the UP of Michigan. Those places would be great when TSHTF. Water, game, fish, trees, shelter, etc. Now for over 25 years I have been in Houston. Have family here with small grandkids. I will have to remain here but our chances here are not good. My adult kids don’t believe life is going to change.
I live in Houston, too: grew up here. This is home to me: though I’ve considered moving, I know this town, this place, and like a great many of y’all I feel my best bet is to remain in a place where I know a lot of folks. I already know how to pronounce Kuykendahl Rd.: why leave? :-)
Honestly, though, if I was to leave I’d pick Michigan or Ontario: I know both reasonably well, and being on the Great Lakes puts one at a distinct advantage. There’s something about Ontario that suggests people there are more likely willing to work together instead of hunkering down: not a good long-term strategy… the U.P. is a beautiful place, but too cold for me… curse my thin Texas skin!
@ Jack,
As a Florida Native, let me assure you that there ARE definitely military targets in FL. Military bases all along the coasts, Kennedy Space Center, various ports, numerous firearms and aerospace manufacturers, etc. If terrorists, for example, wanted to strike terror into the hearts of infidels everywhere, they couldn’t dream of a better target than Disney World. The only question after it’s destruction is: “Would we miss it?”
As for it being too hot for the tastes of some, I’ll just say this: You’ll never freeze to death in Florida. People do die of heat exhaustion, but globally, the big killer is cold, not heat. Ice is the enemy of life, and Florida is largely free of ice at all times. Fuel for warmth is an entirely alien concept to me. In summer, just work outside early in the day and early in the evening to avoid mosquitoes and too much sun.
I would say that the re-emergence of tropical diseases could occur of the system collapsed, but before the invention of DDT, Malaria and Yellow Fever used to strike as far north as Massachusetts in summertime. It seems unlikely that these types of diseases would become an epidemic in a TEOTWAWKI scenario, but Mosquitoes and No-See-Ums are a nightmare if you don’t know how to avoid them.
Rural N. Fl.
5 acres on a lake, great fishing, large garden
Plenty of game
Almost everyone here knows how to fix things
Won’t freeze to death though this last winter could have caused probs if you were careless
Gets hot but solar power runs fans very nicely
Allen,
About being careless, I understand your thoughts, as I have in-laws that live in Tampa Bay. They complain to no end if they have to feel air colder than 60 degrees. Just a thought, but what if Yellowstone went up, and the global temp went down drastically? Those who have been living in temperate comfort will find themselves in a pickle (the careless ones anyway).
Since I live in the north, I am used to this, and I am glad that this is something that I have adapted to. For those in the south, it would be a good idea to stock some jackets, thermals, or whatever…….because that is what prepping is about. In survival, careless will get you dead.
Allen, When I moved back to Ohio from Arizona, I had to wear sweaters in the summertime, and it was in the seventies here. The difference in humidity is a factor that must be figured in. Arizona was really hot with low humidity, and Ohio felt cold because it was humid. I’d say if anyone is planning a big move, to pack accordingly.
Humidity plays a big role in how hot or cold it feels. I grew up in Southern FL and use to say that anything under 80 was cool, under 70 was cold and under 60 was frigid. I love the beaches and warmer weather but in a shtf scenario I would not want to be down there. Miami, Tampa, West Palm, – heck the whole east coast up to Jupiter is crowded, as in lots of people. Then to top that off snakes, gators and mosquitoes come to mind (and yes, you would want to know how to avoid them). For me, at least if Florida was where I was going to be, I’d have to go farther north in the state. Just my .02 from someone who was born and raised there.
Some suggestions for New England:
Alford, Chester, Dalton, Russell, Leyden, Colrain-Massachusetts
New Haven, or North Kingdom county-Vermont
All Northwestern areas (especially not offically organized) of Maine.
Low populations, rural resources and land for food production-distance from major cities.
Best wishes.
Lawrence
@ Matt
Read the first line: The South-West corner of Florida around Fort Myers.
M.D.’s question was “what are your recommendations for retreat areas in the eastern U.S. and why?”
Maybe I should have said “close to Fort Myers” at the end of ever sentence, but I thought it was pretty clear from the first sentence.
The first thing I do to consider this question is look at some population maps/tools;
http://mapofusa50states.com/images/map_of_usa_50_states22.gif
http://www.blountindustry.co.uk/images/Tennessee_map.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/21/US_population_map.png
http://www.populationexplorer.com/#
Then consider how far someone could get on a full tank (ave between compact and mid-size cars/fuel tanks is about 300 miles). Not many will have a full tank, in 10% of car owners in large metro areas do, that’s a lot of mobile folks. Suburban and even rural areas inside 200-250 miles or so of such areas likely would be completely saturated with what could only be termed refugees. Stay away from most of those areas, which doesn’t leave much.
Maine looks good on the population map, but it’s proximity to NYC etc., plus the harsh winters, would not be good. A lot of people to the south might also think it looks great, has wood, game, and even a coast to fish at – recipe for chaos.
Sticking to the choices given, I’d probably stick with central Mississippi or maybe central/southern Alabama, and would not even consider the east coast or New England.
I’m curious about people talking about harsh winters. I suppose it’s relative to what you’re used to, but southern ontario, new york state, etc don’t have particularily harsh winters. Certainly it can get cold, and yes there can be a lot of snow. But neither tends to last very long. There are often thaws that can quickly reduce the depth of snow.
Besides, in a strictly practical sense, a harsh winter is an advantage to a prepper. If things go to hell during the winter it means fewer refugees from the city will live to get to your area.
It all depends on what you’re used to. Having grown up in upstate NY, the winters aren’t a problem. In fact, I look forward to them. I also took secret delight in hearing the transplants from southern climates express dread for the oncoming winter every fall.
Temperatures can get very cold at times, but we also have frequent winter thaws, meaning the snow usuallt doesn’t accumulate too high, nor will you be stuck in your house for too long during a cold snap. Also, the climate varies greatly by location. A town just 20 miles north of me gets twice the annual snowfall that we get. Likewise, another town 50 miles south averages just half our snowfall.
I never thought of it before, but the cold weather could indeed keep refugees and looters away. Cold weather has a tendency to thin out parasite populations – be they mosquitoes or marauders. If I were forced to evacuate New York City in the fall with no particular place to go and no resources, I would certainly head south to warmer climates, rather than up into the snow belt.
I’m surprised this is even a point of contention. The winters are relatively cold;
http://maps.howstuffworks.com/united-states-winter-temperatures-map.htm
If you have a well-stocked retreat with a large propane tank(s), heating oil, or many cord of wood already cut, no big deal. But if you’ll need to cut wood it’s a whole different ball game. If the wood isn’t right there, will you have a vehchle and fuel to haul it? Will the roads be clear? Will you want to risk the sound of a chainsaw (if you have one)?
I grew up using wood as our only source of home heating and it wasn’t a lot of fun even with a chainsaw and 4×4 truck. Cutting through those winters, if the wood isn’t cut before then, would be no joke.
If it’s fall/winter and the hoards are leaving, say, NYC, south is the direction likely to become crowded/clogged first, leaving north perhaps slightly less so.
I wasn’t arguing that the north doesn’t have cold winters when compared to say, Tennesee or Missouri, only that that winters aren’t so bad as to pose a serious obstacle to the well prepared. My house heats with wood. We always have next years wood stacked in the shed and the year after’s stacked to dry in thr sun. We’re ready if anything happens, and the wood burns better.
The winter also kills of a lot of pests. Both weeds and insects, not to mention refugees. If the world’s going to hell and the roads are jammed, people will start walking. Walking in a blizzard is no joke, but if you live at your retreat, you don’t have to go anywhere.
On the balance, I’ll take the relatively cold northern winter
I’ll take the cold northern winters as well.
There definitely are disadvantages, having to cut wood is a biggie and is the winter work for the following year.
But, IMO, a tremendous advantage is how few people will hang around if we get into a serious SHTF situation: they’ll all be hoofing for warmer climes.
Just be prepared for living in an area ice bound five months a year: ice fishing tackle, good bowsaws, axes and splitting maul will be primary tools if/when things head south. And be sure to make friends with the neighbors cuz you’ll need them if you ever become incapacitated due to injury or illness.
As to the cold: having wintered over in some southern states- Ill, Va, Ky, a few others– I’d rather be cold in MN than suffer thru the humid winters those places have. There’s a lot to be said for ‘dry’ cold compared to ‘wet’ cold that doesn’t seep into you, but drives right through.
A couple other ‘nice’ things about living in a cold climate is a lot of germs are eradicated by frostbite, and the mosquitoes aren’t as bad as those who have a longer growing season. But they do make up for it with a vengeance!
Shy III
Chiming in from southern Michigan……I know it’s not on the map, but it’s close.
Gotta back up Yooper Girl. Aside from all the obvious Great Lake waters, Michigan has a massive amount of inland lakes and streams. Ounce you gat past the mid-section, it is primarily rural small town. Plenty of game year round. Plenty of pine and hardwood forests to live off of.
Since Michigan is on the low end of this drastic economy right now, property is cheap. Just gotta factor in the cold and wet weather. As long as you are dressed for it, there are plenty of retreat locations to be found.
Another great post to keep us thinkin’
Good luck to us all………
The State Bird of Michigan is the mosquito, correct? Are they a problem in the summers?
Sometimes…for sure.
Sometimes we get lucky, with nice early spring weather the mosquitos lay their eggs. Then we get a good mid to late April frost and it kills all the eggs. When this happens, you can definitely tell the difference in the population.
remote NW north carolina but not along the new river…insular, somewhat rugged but quite pleasent. 20 acres may cost 80 – 120k but if you can stand the price. can locate a true southern slope, and have the smallish equipment needed to install a permaculture farm, then it can be like the garden of eden. allow a couple of years and a couple thousand dollars to integrate into the community and your set. the community is already nearly self-sufficient and extemely resilent. 3 hours from RDU, 2 hours frrom Charlotte, 4-5 hours from Atlanta area. find a hollow, buy from the stream to the ridge and then spend a thousand hours walking the land…
A thousand happy hours… but at that price you could come to Ontario and buy 100 acres, have a small cabin and a spring fed pond… Your dollar is still (barely) worth more than ours… In my area you can get 20 acres for about 35K – that will still give you enough woodlot for wood and maple syrup…
If you are interested in the central and western Upper Peninsula of Michigan you can go to my website at copperrangetitle.com and click on the links for Realtors and banks for up-to -date listings and financing on this great area.
I can’t agree about NC for “head for the hills” scenarios.
Anywhere you could homestead even if you are on a dirt road the size of a goat-path you will round the bend and find a cluster of mobile homes, complete with junked vehicles and likely a meth lab or two.
There are true wilderness areas in the mountains but are only suitable for a hunting cabin (no chance to farm or raise fodder for livestock).
I’ve been in every state in the American South with the sole exception of Virginia. I have lived in KY, TN, GA, FL, TX, and OK. If you want to live in the swamps Florida has plenty of places. South Georgia has alot of remote areas. Anyone living in North Georgia would have to contend with everyone coming out of Atlanta in the event of SHTF. Mississippi has some really remote areas in the Northern part of the state. Louisiana too. Northeast Texas has alot of potential once you get about 75 miles or more from the Dallas metroplex. (Which I’m not far from) But my place of choice for a bugout would be Southeast Oklahoma or Southwest Akansas. All of the wild game and fish you could possibly want. Property is very inexpensive. Though unless you have some kind of specialized occupational training work is kind of hard to come by. But like I said in a bugout situation I can’t think of any better place. And most areas are well over 100 miles from any major urban population.
I’ve been through Texas several times and never liked any of it. It was like driving under a bowl called the sky. No trees in sight for endless miles, and where could one hide unless they dug a hole to crawl in? Then there was the cattle lots that ran for miles and the ammonia smell stole your breath away, making the vehicle reek for hours. I’m sure there are good parts, but not where I was. It took forever (seemed like) to get through that state, because it is so big. Never had time to look for nicer parts of it, but I’ve been told they were there.
You missed East Texas. It is very pretty! Huge forests full of pine and other trees. Lots of lakes and streams as well. Tyler, in the northeast part, is the rose capital of the south and the are several very large commercial and wholesale nurseries there as well. That being said, it is also the most populated part of the state. We are moving my mother out to live with us in the mountains of WV at our retreat location.
West Virginia is where my mom was born. What I’ve seen of it would be good for a retreat., and I’ve heard the taxes are low.
You must have stayed on the interstate then. There is lots of good places in Texas to have a retreat.
Northern Mississippi will have to worry about Memphis refugees and thugs heading their way. I’d pass.
Not along I-22 in Mississippi. I drove that recently betwwn Birmingham and Memphis and is is extremely desolate. The gangbangers from Memphis would be hard pressed to find anyone to rob out there. I-22 isnt’ completed yet and probably won’t be for many years to come. So there is only a small handfull of gas stations, even less motels, and not many people from what I could see. Just mainly woods. I even mentioned to my wife if someone just wanted to disappear for a while that area would suffice.
“WE” chose our location only after a number of years of research…
Again, “we” do not follow the paths of others, as that may not be in your best interests.
“WE” chose the northern area of Arizona. Yes it is cold, and quite arid at times, and unless you know what you are doing and have a real estate man you can “stake your life on”, don’t buy anything you are told to!
Northern Arizona has some qualities most/many overlook:
1) not a very high populus!
2) not a place where many would even consider to go into!
3) arid, means little to NO water!
Now that’s a real plus!
4) Knowing where the water is, how deep, and how to get it, is the KEY!
5) the area is well known for it’s relatively large game, being in a remote/protected area! A number of species are up there!
6) isolation, “WE” are at least an hours drive from the nearest town, population of 450!
7) knowing where you are at, makes all the difference in the world.
8) having a “front man” or “caretaker” on-site is a definite advantage…
9) we do, we have, and that’s about all I can say!
If you consider an area, such as we did, take into consideration the ability to disappear into the landscape. Have someone familiar with the area (or not), make the rounds and “recon” the area around you, and find where everyone and everything is located.
Make solid acquaintances…(friends) in the area!
Our site is 150+ miles from my home in Phoenix…and we are in the process of moving there, since we bought our land last March.
The “caretaker” has been on-site now since September of last year.
The site WE chose has a lot of amenities…
It is isolated, in a horseshoe shaped plateau, 2 mountains on the west and east sides, great LP/OP vantage points on either of the large 2 mountain peaks ,where our only road comes in to the site….to our immediate south: a deep and wide canyon, that is virtually impassable by man on foot or by beast!
Water?
Yeah that is a concern, but we were smart enough to research that first, and to buy later! Our site sits above one of the largest aquifers in the entire state! Estimated to be between 50 to 100 ft down…..Not run off!….we get that on both sides of our land via 2 natural washes. Recently, we have discovered a multitude of natural springs which are around us as well! Fresh clear cool water, (in the desert no less!).
So, we are isolated, covered, and well hidden, and have an abundance of available water ( that is hidden as well).
Our site is 90% tree covered….If you walk only a few feet, you can easily disappear into the trees! BTW: the local wildlife come right up to our door at times! They know where to hide from any local hunters!
Roads, are all dirt, and no signs, following each rain you had better know where you are on the land, or you’ll get lost ! The rain and snow wash away all traces of travel up there…We get a good amount of rain and snow!
Soils? Ours is volcanic! Not just old desert sand….But a fantastic growing medium!
So, do your “homework”, research, and learn!
Not only will you find the right area for you, but have a great place to go just to realx and enjoy nature!
PS: literally hundreds of acres of free firewood , you just cut and haul!
Before thinking about a retreat location anywhere and I mean anywhere in the country, I would definitely want to check out all that I can about the Trans Texas Corridor and the NAFTA Superhighway…you don’t want to get or have a retreat to find that the government decided, through imminent domain meaning they can take it whether you like it or not, that they want it for the highway. In Arkansas, the government has been taking quite a bit of acreages and in some areas where the TTC and NAFTA S.Hwy. are. I’m not saying that all land is at risk but it’d be far wiser to do some research, thoroughly, beforehand. If thinking about land near the coastal areas, hurricanes and other deadly weather should be taken into account and also those areas most prone to earthquakes.
I am a believer in “sheltering in place” unless threatened by fire, hurricane, high level radioactivity or gas/germ warfare (and even then, there is a lot to be said to staying home – ask the ultimate survivalists – the Israelis).
Once you leave your land and your dwelling, you become – a refugee.
Just ask folks in the Darfur what it’s like being a refugee.
Nicely stated.
Try West Virginia if you’re in the D.C./Virginia Corridor. The mountains present an obstacle for refugees on foot once the roads are closed. The demographics are 95% + or – European Stock which means cultural safety unlike many multicultural states full of foreign born.
They still have 4th of July parades in most of their towns and it seems like you are going back in time 30-40 years. Cost of land can be expensive in the Eastern sector but further South and West in the hills it can get cheap. Good growing land with water costs money.
Concealed carry state.
Friendly people without pretensions and hard working. Few gang members.
Also, crime is low. Spending on enforcement was the lowest in the country while they had the second lowest violent crime rate in the country.
This is a great side benefit of little free-ride money available so the welfare types stay in more prosperous terrain. Here you gotta work.
Did I mention 95% European ancestry?
http://www.city-data.com/states/West-Virginia-Ethnic-groups.html
Culture equals destiny and here the culture indicates stability.
I’d take the black south african guy that farms down the road, and the immigrant Korean family that runs my grocery store, over a lot of people of “european stock” that I’ve met. I don’t care what culture they come from, I can rely on them to put their community before ethnic considerations.
“unlike many multicultural states full of foreign born.”
I agree. Diversity + racism leads to instability. With that being said, it’s not the minorities in my area that concern me, it’s the folks with no skill that feel entitled to everything. The illegals around here are hard working and used to living without the finer things in life. They’ll be fine. It’s the soccers moms/dads that can’t provide for their kids that you have to worry about.
Seems like someone can find a place pretty much anywhere in the East – ‘cept Jersey ;-)
I suggest going to Tioga county PA. Its very remote up there with plenty of game if you’re interested in hunting.
Great discussion here! This post really got a lot of people thinking (and contributing).
I know it’s west of the Mississippi, but since someone else brought it up, and it is very close to many areas in the East, I have to recommend north central Arkansas as the best place in the near East, and perhaps one of the best places in the whole United States to retreat. The area in and around Mountain Home would be the optimum place, but land is generally less expensive the farther you get away from there.
The area that has a southern boundary of Mountain View to Marshall, with Hwy. 65 as the western boundary, the eastern boundary from Mountain View to Cherokee Village, and the northern boundary Lake Norfolk to Bull Shoales Lake is the one of the best places I’ve ever been. There is also extensive national forest land in this area, including the area encompassing the Buffalo National River, a gem in the Heartland.
The fishing is great, there is ample wildlife, land is relatively inexpensive away from the tourist areas(it’s a trout fishing paradise), and the people are the friendliest I’ve ever encountered. They are accustomed to outsiders due to the tourism in the area, but are very down to earth. I bought a cabin near Bull Shoales lake two years ago, and we go there as often as possible. Crime rates are low, there is a homogenous population(95% or more European descent), schools are good, homeschooling is common, Arkansas is a shall issue state, and I could go on and on. However, it is far from a large city, so if you want to be fairly close to a city, forget it, this isn’t the place for you.
I am stuck in the metromess (DFW) with over six million people until retirement in two years. If things haven’t fallen apart by then, I’m heading for the Ozarks. In fact, I’m doing a real estate research mission up there on my next vacation. Arkansas must have a lot to offer as Kurt Saxton (so I’m told) still lives up there.
Why not go to the LA melting pot if such is the case. Stats don’t lie and that is why the safest places to live are the ones that have fewer immigrants.
Enjoy your fantasy world, but you likely won’t make it when the time comes.
I take it that was addressed at me. It’s no fantasy world, Toronto is the most multicultural city in the world, and one of the largest in North America, yet it has lower crime rates than many smaller American cities. If you want to say that you don’t trust people that aren’t white, then say so. I’ve grown up in an area that’s 95% or more european. The guy that robbed the gas station? White. Arsonist they caught burning barns? White. None of people listed in the court docket in the local paper are ever of a different cuultural background. It’s always those good old folks of european stock.
I might not make it when TSHTF, but that goes for any of us. I doubt the cause will be trusting my neighbours to work for our community
Dash is correct in his assessment of crime in general in Canada. A homicide cop I am friends with in TO told me once that unless you are in a gang, dealing drugs or married to an abuser, chances of your being murdered in Canada is about on par with winning the PowerBall… could happen but chances are you’re wasting your money.
Of course once you get outside of the major urban centres this country is pretty white with the odd Chinese or Indian restaurant thrown in for flavour. And certainly the majority of corner stores in rural Ontario seem to be owned by Koreans. These are families that are well integrated with solid values and good work ethics – I sure hope that when the SHTF they will play an active role in rebuilding.
PC foolishness. Go live in Toronto then. Lib fools will be sorted out by nature, reality, and the laws of human nature which is to form groups of similar people and exclude others.
TEOTWAKI = WAR in terms of how humanity might act.
Now you’re just being obtuse.We’re telling you that the scum in our communities aren’t the minorities, they’re the members of the majority that are too lazy or stupid to better themselves.
I don’t live in TO for a few very simple reasons. 1 I’m a farmer and that’s impossible to do in the city. 2 The high population density means more problems in an emergency. 3 I really don’t like people all that much in general.
I think you’re something of a fool to be basing your criteria for choosing people to work with on ethnicity or culture. I don’t care if someone’s a gay, transvestite, east indian, wiccan, midget – if they’re a doctor, then they’re welcome to come live with me in an emergency. The skills they bring far outweigh their strangeness.
My criteria on choosing people to work with are pretty simple
1 what do they have to offer? skills, supplies, etc.
2 are they willing to work with me for our mutual benefit?
Since this list of comments was about Eastern U.S. retreat areas I mentioned West Virginia if you live in the D.C. and Baltimore area as a reasonable approach to avoiding the crime that would likely accompany a collapse. Check crime stats on city-data to get a rough idea of what to expect. Remember, most law enforcement agencies are just trying to keep a lid on things in many urban and suburban areas. Once the balloon goes up you can expect a spike in crime. With that in mind consider not only rural areas but those with low population densities and shall I dare say it, common cultural understandings. I say this because if you examine the demographic make-up of a location it just by chance happens to match up with the crime rates either for good or bad.
Already a few have taken it upon themselves to use the R word against such thoughts and then point to distant locales as examples of multicultural places that work well. I would point out that you can get low crime in China, so go there then if living in a totalitarian environment appeals to you. This I suspect is what drives such commentary plus the need to live out their indoctrination in public schools and profess it to the world. It won’t sell once the rules fall to the wayside.
I know this is a touchy subject to some of the timid among us that still support the company line sold by Washington. You would do yourself well to read the numbers and approach it rationally.
Why is it that the most ignorant among us are the ones who’ve never lived around anyone different from themselves?
Good luck Pilgrim.
You’ll need it!
Let me address this reply to our Canadian friends. I was born in Dallas, Tx., and have lived in Dallas, Ft. Worth, Abilene and Snyder, Tx., along with Little Rock, Ar., Oklahoma City and Washington, D. C. I presently live in Snyder, Tx. where I own a small ranch. I recently purchased a cabin near Mt. Home, Ar.
I’ve been lucky enough to visit Canada on occasion, and have been to Toronto. First, a couple of observations from your writings. If the area you live in is 95% or more white, then I would expect that the vast majority of your criminals would be white. Simple logic. As for a very small minority never getting in any trouble, most of these people are business owners, and that particular group probably has the lowest rate of crime than any other, at least that is true here in the US. And I didn’t find Toronto to be anything like the comparable cities in the US, namely Washington, D.C., which has a tremendous welfare underclass that has been created by the politicians of that city. Toronto and most large US cities are just not comparable.
Crime rates are extremely high in all large US cities that have large minority populations. These are just facts. The lowest crime rates in the US are in the homogenous areas of the US, and the rates in these areas rival or match Canadian crime rates. Some of these states would be No. and So. Dakota, Idaho, Montana, Wisconsin, Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine, and several other parts of states with low minority populations.
I don’t say any of this to be racist in any way, but it is important for people looking for a retreat to take all these factors into account before selecting an area for a retreat. What might not be a problem in Canada may be a problem in the US, but again, I think you will find a sprinkling of Asians and Hispanics in all parts of the US, including the area I selected, and they will cause no problems. But I wouldn’t want to retreat to an area that was predominantly Mexican, say Del Rio, Tx. for example, as I believe I would have a difficult time gaining the trust of the Hispanic community there because I am different. And that says nothing against these folks, it’s just that we were tribes for a reason, and that reason was survival.
Hi for Eastern US retreat ideas read the book “Kingdom of Kanawha”.
I have to put in another vote for the UP of Michigan. In my 42 years I’ve lived in Wisconsin, Indiana, Michigan, and Colorado and the northern areas of Michigan (the UP specifically) get my vote for some of the best land to retreat to.
Parts of the UP do have sandy soil that will take a lot of enrichment in order to grow a variety of crops. But – many parts have been farmed and the soil is all ready to go!
The winters can be cold, but I raised beef cattle, chickens, and rabbits in the central UP and never lost an animal due to exposure – even when we were battling temps of 20 below zero on the thermometer (over 40 below zero with windchills).
As PPs mentioned there are some environmental pollution issues to be addressed, but Lake Superior provides drinking water to many towns and cities and Lake Michigan provides drinking water to towns and cities in Wisconsin and Michigan. A good filter will take care of most worries fairly easily there.
I’m personally watching land prices and hope to be back “up nort’” real soon!
they will devalue your savings, raise the prices of everything and tax you off and away in the quise of “help” and do it with divide and conquer crony payday politics……………………………………………………………………
Our family has been living in NC for the last four years due to my job. We have felt for quite a while, however, that we needed to have a retreat but knew it would have to be in the eastern part of the US in order to be able to work on it while we lived in NC. After travel quite a bit in the surrounding areas, we settled on a place in the mountains right on the border of southern VA and WV. Our 40 acres is in VA and our closest neighbor to the west, about 1/2 a mile away, is in WV.
We are close to the top of our mountain which pretty much requires 4 wheel drive for our dirt road. While there are quite a few small hamlets and towns around, everyone in the towns have garden or farm animals and most folks in the surrounding areas are fairly self sufficient, or at least could be for the most part. The closest city is almost 100 miles away so we feel pretty comfortable with the location.
Our property is backed up by a huge national preserve that has plenty of game and wild life. Our water sorce is a gravity fed mountain spring and we are planning on installing both solar and wind energy sources for power even though we are on the grid. While we have to clear a lot of trees to plant large field crops, we have plenty of room for a HUGE garden right now and space to start a small orchard as well. That also means we have PLENTY of wood for all of our needs.
Our neighbors and the folks that we have met at church are very friendly and helpfull, especially if you approach them with humility and you leave your big city, know it all attitude at the door.
We are almost finished with our house and will be permanately moving to our retreat location and starting our homestead farm next month. All along the borders of VA, WV, NC, TN and GA in that mountain corrider is much the same and you can find some great spots that will make very good retreat locations with some looking.
My thought was the Gunflint Trail in northern MN. Its a road that heads northwest into the Boundary Waters canoe area. One way in – One way out. It is very remote being surrounded by wilderness on all sides except for the road in and out. Really anywhere in the arrowhead region is pretty remote.
Canadian wilderness to the north
Lake Superior to the south and east.
Smack dab in the middle of the largest national forest in the lower 48 (superior National forest)
over 6 hours from nearest large city – MPLS
Plenty of clean water – we currently just paddle out into lakes a little ways and fill our canteens
Plenty of game
Plenty of fish
Plenty of wood (although mostly softer wood)
People will be heading south and not north
Downsides – short growing season, extremely cold in winter (not for you southern folks) What do I care – Im Finnish and can’t stand heat anyway.
Heres the kicker – Once things started to get bad and if someone were handy with a chainsaw they could make it extremely remote by felling trees 20-40 miles down the road. After this it would only be accessable by a 3 day canoe trip or very long ATV/Snowmobile trip.
I recommend this because I would love to feel like there are more preppers in the area.
Survivalists can scratch Canada off as very unfriendly for semi-auto rifles(assault rifle types) and no handguns for those moving in. I was born in Canada, but moved to Michigan in 1948 with my parents. It takes 3-months to get a permit to take a rifle on a hunting trip to Canada. I had my pickup torn apart in 2001 when I cut thru Ontario from MA to MI as customs looked for firearms. They seized my pepper spray.
The UP of MI would be ideal based on going to MTU for 4-yr. I spent a lot of time prospecting for minerals so got to know the backwoods fairly well, but that was 50-yr ago.
I would give consideration to KY, southern OH, western NC for a retreat.
Unless you are already set-up and own a piece of property with water and shelter, “moving for moving’s sake” during a crisis is fool-hardy.
If the SHTF in reality, I wish you luck out on the highways where there will be no security, gasoline, working atm’s, or drivable roads.
And, if you have an unattended retreat somewhere, best of luck getting the unexpected squatters off your property. They’ll be dug in. You’ll be in a world of hurt.
“Retreating” is an unrealistic option for most if not all people, (except maybe those who stand to profit by selling bogus “survival” books and/or retreat supplies… ) If you want to live a rural life, then go now, before 10 million “others” join you and what was once rural becomes “crowded”. Live your life as is, get involved in your community NOW, and deal with society as it exists NOW. All else, “prepping” (a silly name/description for yuppies IMHO…lol) and so on is an illusion. IF the shtf most people will lose it completely anyway, “prepped” or not. As most ‘survivalists” have already become socially dysfunctional now, no matter how many supplies “they” have, they will lose what remains of their “humanity” in their solitary/communal defensive retreat postures… If you are willing to become a cold blooded warlord, or feudal lord, by all means plan to escape…most likely you will only become someone else’s serf though. You Will be overun in time.
I would always store extra supplies…from food to ammo…as I would keep my homeowners and auto insurance, and pay my mortgage. But lets not delude ourselves, in a real collapse, there will be no escape. They will come for you. Safety will be in numbers, not on an isolated farm somewhere. Build up the community your in now, be it rural, surburban, or a city block. You stand the best chances where you are now. Make your stand in YOUR community with your neighbors.
Living in northern Alabama… I have come to the conclusion that southern middle Tennessee is one of your best choices east of the Mississippi River. The population density in most of the region is less than 50 people / sq. mile. The area gets around 50-55″ of rainfall a year and only a few inches of snow each winter. There is a decent amount of fertile land available, and lots of excellent rangeland for grass-fed beef (Lincoln County, TN is #1 in the state for beef production). Most of the area has grown very little in the last 100 years, so most of the small towns retain their old advantages…. Fayetteville has a Walkscore of 95/100 due to the old urban grid layout and minimal suburbanization on the fringes. There are lots of nice and helpful people already in the area, with Mennonites in Belvidere, one of the largest Amish populations in the southeast in Ethridge, and relocated 70s hippies set up The Farm in Summertown just up the road from the Amish. There are resilient local businesses in the area that will survive no matter what (ever heard of Jack Daniels?), such as Falls Mill…. an old water-powered grain mill built in 1873 still in operation (http://www.fallsmill.com/). The region pushes up against the western side of the Cumberland Plateau…. so there are numerous options in the hills for finding some extremely remote retreats if that is what you are looking for (<5 people per square mile and brutal terrain). The area is very pro-gun…… the town of Fayetteville has a 100 yard shooting range IN THE CITY run by the recreation department. Finally, the best selling point of all is price! You can get a farm with 40+ acres of land and a house for less than $200K…. hard to beat!
Nice to see someone from my neck of the woods post. I agree, I love the Fayetteville area but I’ll stick to good ole’ Alabama for now. Any thoughts on the Huntsville/Decatur refugees and where they might head? I’ve been struggling with that one for a while.
If you don’t have a retreat and try to bug out, it’s a very bad idea. If you do hit the road, there is a good chance of getting ambushed or otherwise taken off guard and killed.
If you live in an urban/suburban area (esp. eastern U.S.) and stay after TSHTF, it’s a very bad idea. If it’s long-term and you stay in an urban/suburban area, you likely will starve – that’s the fact of the matter and good security will only mean you starve instead of get shot, and that’s still a maybe.
Both options suck and you have to know that. Which one is worse? It depends on several factors;
1) Population of the area
2) Current road/wx conditions
3) How far you’d need to go to escape the urban area
4) Can you realistically defend your urban/suburban location?
5) Can you realistically defend yourself/family on the road?
6) Food and other supplies on hand
7) Physical condition of yourself/others with you
8) Etc.
Only you know how you fit in with these factors in mind. It may be suicide to stay, or the same to leave. Could be a ‘decide your poison’ type situation.
But to say the only option is to bug-in is just false, especially in an urban setting.
My youngest son lives in Washington, D.C., and in a third-floor condo at that. Can you imagine the chaos there would be if the electricity and plumbing all of a sudden didn’t work? There is absolutely no possiblity of his being able to shelter in-place given his situation. And firearms for all intents and purposes are a no-no in D.C. We all hope this changes, but I wouldn’t count on it. He does have a 12-ga shotgun and a .45 auto stored at a friend’s house in Virginia.
Which leaves my son a couple of options. He can find a place closer to D.C. to retreat, or he can drive to our retreat in Arkansas. He has a Toyota Tacoma that gets pretty good gas mileage for a truck, he has a go bag packed, and he has 25 gal of gasoline in storage at his friend’s house in Virginia. Same place the firearms are stored.
He made the decision to try to get to Arkansas, so we planned accordingly. We have family in Knoxville, Tn., so we have another 25 gal of gas stored for him there, and some freeze-dried food as well. Of course, he has to get there, and from there he has to get to Arkansas.
Our plan is for him to leave D.C. well before any actual chaos begins. I keep up with all pertinent internet and media sites, and I’m pretty well versed in economics, so I believe I know what the danger signals will be prior to a complete breakdown in order. For instance, if the internet and other forms of communications are shut off and/or censored, he knows to leave D.C and go to Knoxville, Tn. If he can’t contact us from there, he knows to go to our retreat in Arkansas. We also have other signals worked out, but I’m just being repetitive. You get the picture.
My point here is that you should make plans to bug out of major metropolitan areas if you can. I don’t imagine my son would survive a week in a multi-level condo with no utilities. If you live in the suburbs, and if you and your neighbors have made plans, then fine, but I would rather be in a more lightly populated rural area than in a heavily populated urban area when and if any chaos occurs. That’s just me.
And Mosin, who on this thread advised anyone to set up some kind of feudal kingdom? Everyone I read here understands the neccessity of joining a community, it’s just that most of us believe that community would be safer if it were more rural. No one said we were to be loners, and I have no idea where you got the idea of “survivalists” being dysfunctional. 99% of the people I’ve met in the “survivalist” community are anything but dysfunctional, both in their ability to communicate, their education, and the importance they place on relationships. Frankly, I don’t know where you came up with that quote. It reeks of ignorance.
Good comments by everyone. I do have a problem with a large portion of “survivalists” who romanticize a possible shtf scenario. They make every excuse in the world why they can’t leave a crowded urban area. Why they can’t really prepare and will “bug-out” “to somewhere” when things get bad.
My argument is this: Do you really believe that a potential societal emergency will happen? If you do, you will act and move you and your family to safer locales before such an event happens. If you don’t act, then you are just a poser and weekend armchair survivalist hypocrite.
Harsh words? Yes. I just have a hard time believing all of the people who visit these type of blogs and don’t do squat in their real-life to prepare.
Inland_Northwest – That is pretty harsh… That’s like saying if you’re a Christian, and you really believe, you should be like Jesus and abandon all worldly possession, don’t have a wife or kids, and spend your life walking around trying to convert everyone or else you are just a poser and weekend armchair Christian hypocrite.
Everyone must evaluate life’s risks for themselves and respond according to their own needs and desires. Your own choice of the Inland Northwest may be a total disaster if the local volcanoes blow, Korea nukes Seattle, another Ice Age happens, a meteor lands on top of you, etc… Your harsh judgement of other’s preparedness just shows your own inflexibility and failure to adapt. And we all know that flexibility and adaptability are the keys to survival. With your attitude, I think you may not make it…
I agree with most all I have read here this morning. I believe staying in place as best as pissible is the best. Move out of the city to as best a rural place as you can (us 50 miles from the “edge” of the nearest major city – yes I know it is not as far as is best, but it was the best we could do in West Central Ohio). Connect with neighbors and get filled with skills. Work to have a deep larder, supplies, animals, gardens, and firearms as a means of defense. Best of all too is work to get TOTALLY debt free; you will be glad you did.
I’d love to hear if there are others in Ohio and what you are doing to survive.
Jack: Indeed harsh. But at least it gets a few people thinking.
You have to look at the probability of the threats you face. If I really feared societal collapse we would be gone in a heartbeat. Suburban MD, sandwiched between DC and Baltimore would be the wrong place for teotwawki.
However, the more likely threats demand far less.
templar knight,
I live in Northern Virginia (NOVA) and advise your son to get out of DC. If he works in DC, living in NOVA is fine, he can live near a metro station, and probably for less rent and taxes than in DC. In VA he can keep his firearms at home w/no worries.
Inland_Northwest,
A lot of people in urban areas are upside down in their mortgage and can’t move w/o declaring bankruptcy and going into foreclosure. How would you like it if all the preppers in such a situation said screw it and did just that? Us taxpayers would foot the bill (again). Also, up and moving isn’t so simple, there is a thing call ed a j-o-b that one needs to have lined up. Some folks have financial responsibility past themselves (help family, etc.)
I sold my home in the DC area over a year ago (now renting) and am still looking for a job to move to. It’s not a good time for that. I have a very good retreat to go to (family), and am doing a helluva lot of prepping in the mean time. Probably a lot of other folks temporarily trapped in urban areas are as well, so don’t assume too much.
Yes, Suburban Survivalist, I have encouraged my son to move to No. Virginia as well, but this condo is owned by the company he works for, so he gets it rent free. A perk that goes with his job. This saves him probably about $1500 or so each month, so it’s difficult to get him to move, especially since he would lose quite a bit of his disposable income.
That said, his best friend lives near Manassas, and allows him to store firearms and fuel at his house. They also deer hunt in the area. As for his plans, they are not the best, but they are the best we could come up with given his situation, and what he will do. As he gets older, he will see it more our way.
I live in Northern VA also with a small family. The son who lives in DC would need to be in front of whatever horde is leaving the DC area to A. Get home B. Get out of dodge.
Right now, I am trying to figure out a decent PLAN. The issue being where would I go and what could I take. What I have conlcuded is that I need to stay in place and develop better and stronger relations with my neighbors so if SHTF we can form a neighborhood watch. Luckily, my new neighbor is a cop and another is an ex Marine. That at least provides better 24/7 security. I also keep 4 weeks of food in my basement (not including what we eat upstairs) but also am renting a storage shed (within walking distance, 24/7 security/owner lives on site) for long term food storage, extra ammo and other long term implements.
After the first wave of refugees get on the road and depending on which TSHTF scenario, then look for moving in group to a better long term area. If I could I would pick WV, since it is close BUT after going over the Shenandoahs and over the Washington mountain ranges, most people on foot would have dropped off. Another problem with WV is there are ALOT of small government facilities. ALOT!
In summary, stay in place until initial refugees have left the area. Then head to West Virginia with a doable sized group that can provide food and security for itself.
With over 120 comment entries, I didn’t read them all; so, if another has recommended what I’m about to suggest, well and good. Another place folk might want to consider, given the area illustrated by that awful color in the map with this article, is Georgia. North Georgia to be specific. Atlanta being in the northern 1/3rd of the state, I wouldn’t recommend that area. That’s where the multitude will be emerging from in attempts to survive when there is no food to be had.
I’m talking about the area in Georgia, North of a line with Gainesville in the East and Rome in the West across the state. Mostly farmland, forest and mountains in the far North of the state. Land isn’t necessarily cheap, but it’s available and reasonable. Water is abundant with natural springs everywhere in the hills, creeks and small rivers all over the area, and abundant with wild game. Deer, wild turkey, black bear, trout streams, and lakes with everything else. Winters are relatively mild in the foothills, and cold in the hills and higher elevations. No snow to speak of; but, plenty of rain. The people are decent, church going, friendly, and helpful. Yankees aren’t unwelcome, stand out like a sore thumb, and tolerated; but, don’t be put off by that. These are good people, no matter what.
One thing, for sure, you’re REALLY out of the way, in this area. Dotted with little towns, it’s a “fur piece” to a sizable city. It’s primarily rural, and people shoot their guns in their back yards, in the woods, and anywhere they want, except where it’d be unsafe to do so. Nobody cares, as they all understand you have to stay sharp as a marksman if you’re ever to hit anything when you want to.
If the feds wanted you, that is you’d made yourself visible in an ungood way to them, they’re going to come for you no matter where you are; so, if you’re looking for a retreat where you think you’ll be safe, there is no such place. If you’re looking for a place where you and the army you bring with you stand any kind of chance at all against federal forces of any size, you could do worse than North Georgia.
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