After yesterdays cross-dressing post, I thought it would be a good idea to take a more hands on approach today, diverging into a topic I’ve not covered before – empty hand and dirty fighting.
I remember my Shotokan instructor telling me, “no matter how good you are or how many trophies you win, on the street you never fight fair”, good advice and words I took to heart.
A “real fight” without referees and judges calls for a different mindset than a competition between two athletes squaring off in a ring.
In a real fight anything goes and your very survival may depend on you not playing by the “rules” if you fight to survive you fight dirty.
Strike First
I remember reading an old Chinese proverb that said “he who strikes first wins”, never be afraid to throw the first punch.
Strike without warning, allowing no time for preparation or defense for your adversary. This is called a sucker punch – if you must fight, it is a powerful weapon, use it.
Strike Often
After throwing the first punch don’t just stand there - keep striking until your target is no longer a threat.
Forget all those Chuck Norris movies where he allows his opponent to get back up on their feet after being knock down. If he goes down, finish the job while he is still in this most vulnerable position.
Be Violent
This one should be obvious. Never fight “nice” be violent, fight like your life depends on it, because it does. You’re not fighting to get the other person to submit. You’re fighting to save you skin.
Bite, gouge the eyes, pull hair, rip at the throat, attack the groin etc. Fight life a crazed madman.
Weapons Of Opportunity
Anytime you’re in a situation where there is a chance of aggression, start looking for anything that could be used as a weapon. These are called weapons of opportunity and are usually within arms reach, you just need to think outside the box.
Common items such as a pens, keys, rocks, ash trays or even a rolled up magazine can be used as effective weapons to attack vulnerable parts of the body.
Use A Distraction
Humans naturally protect their eyes, most will flinch, cover or even close them as a protective measure against perceived danger. We can use this to our advantage.
Throwing anything toward the eyes will move your opponent off guard and into a vulnerable position allowing you opportunity for an effective attack.
Have you even been in a fight? What happened? What did you learn?
{ 81 comments }
Striking first is not a Chinese fighting practice. You may be confusing the Chinese proverb that more likely says something to the effect of “the fight is over after the first blow is thrown”, meaning, if you are skilled, after your opponent throws the first punch/kick, you should effectively counter and then “rain a thousand blows”… some of them will get through. This is why speed is emphasized so heavily in Kung Fu. If you have practiced your combos well enough so that reacting is just muscle memory, then you can overwhelm your opponent with a “thousand blows”.
It is completely against the martial code to strike first. It is also a good way to get yourself thrown in jail and probably sued to top it off. Bad advice.
Eric,
I’m glad most people think as you do – makes it easy for us living in the real world to come through a fight unscathed.
While you’re worrying about martial code, going to jail and getting sued your attacker has no such apprehensions and will likely strike you accross the head with a club before you have time to counter with your 1000 blows.
We’re talking about street survival and self-defense where loosing a fight could mean an end to your life. Martial code and spinning, jumping maybe fine in the dojo but will get you killed when faced with a real threat.
As for jail or being sued – I’ts better to be judged by 12 than carried by six.
MD,
Great closing line!
We can agree to disagree, but we are a nation of laws, not of men. An unprovoked attack is wrong. You can try to rationalize it all you want, but the fact is that it is wrong. You can go on and be macho about it, but you are revealing your character and your self-worth. And this has nothing to do with martial arts… this is simple ethics. It is never ethical to take the first swing.
Eric
You are 100% correct with your statement “you are revealing your character and your self-worth. And this has nothing to do with martial arts…” and that’s about it, the rest is weak rubbish.
Successful survival is only about character & self-worth. There are NO ethics in protecting one’s own self or family. MD is right, may not sound pretty but he is right.
It’s the real world my friend.
Who said anything about an unprovoked attack?
To question my character, self-worth and ethics for trying to help decent people survive an attack by an aggressor only shows your lack of understanding about the real world and self-defense.
You need to remember the person throwing the first punch isn’t always the one starting the fight. If you know a fight is imminent and you don’t strike first because of ethics or some other BS you are a fool.
We are talking about the real world not the inside of a dojo.
“…has nothing to do with martial arts…”
Ummm, ‘scuze me? There’s an “art” to saving your ass from a beating, or worse? Damn. If some dipwad comes at you with a knife or bottle, or just his fists, you can draw your paint brush and pad and ask him to autograph it for you, or you can kick his ass into the next county. Regardless what you want to call it, if he doesn’t cross to the other side of the street every time he sees you after the fight, you lost. A fight IS a SHTF situation and rules are for politically correct wimps.
Not to say we go looking for trouble, but when it comes, don’t make yourself a bigger target by getting stabbed first. The hell with waiting.
Shy III
Hey Eric, your a fu#($*# idiot. This is a blog about survival, not about feelings and being sensitive to others needs. If the people who read this blog decide to attack someone, it is certainly because they feel their life or the lives of their family may be in danger. I’m sure your San Francisco survival mentality keeps you warm at night becuase you will never get sued, but obviously you don’t live in reality. How the hell do you think all the people in the prison system ended up there? Do you think they stood around waiting to rape, murder, assault people until after somebody threw a punch at them? Maybe you should go back to listening to NPR and leave survival/reality to the big boys. Just a thought.
Featured in the photo:
Left, MD Creekmore, to the right Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson, Jr.
This candid shot was captured by a Reuters photojournalist just moments after Secretary Paulson accused MD Creekmore of being a “cross dresser” & wearing the infamous black boots & fluffy pink boa.
Mr. Creekmore was unceremoniously escorted from the White House Press Room by the U.S. Secret Service.
And fighting all the way to the exit point…
Kicking,biting, and choking one of his escorts with his pink boa… At one instant, his pointy-toed boot got stuck…causing him to fall backwards and be dragged down the isle….
If I feel I am in any sort of danger to hell with going to jail or proper fighting form. Someone is going down and I’m going to try to make sure that it’s not me.
I can deal with jail. I can’t deal with my family possibly being injured or me being placed in a 6′ deep box.
Prepared N.D.,
Precisely.
PND
Totally agree – all is fair in love and war. There is only one rule to a real street fight – do what it takes to win, period.
While Eric squares off in his Praying Mantis stance, I’ll strike & disable him with a rusty piece of rebar then leave.
He will be left thinking “but… but what about the code of conduct in martial arts” while limping his way to the ER.
MD is right. When being threatened with your life, on the street and in combat there is no such thing as a “fair fight” Strike first, strike fast and strike hard. Close the gap and disable your opponent. Jui Jitsu, Kenpo and Aikido are excellent martial arts forms to study for hand-to-hand combat.
Eric seems to be thinking of initiating blows in a fight without sufficient provocation. However, that is NOT what MD is referring to.
Eric is absolutely DEAD wrong in saying “never ethical” to take the first swing. If I’m in a situation where my life or the life of a loved one is in mortal danger, hell frickin’ YES I’d be totally within my right to take a ‘first swing’.
I haven’t been in a fight since I quit drinking 21 years ago.
Funny how when you stay home at night with the family,
many problems fall by the wayside.
I have noticed that when someone gets up in your face and drops their
hands down by their side, they are about to strike, using the hands down
by their side posture to lul you into thinking that they are not going to attack
just yet, and then suddenly they try to throw a haymaker.
If the discussion is EXTREMELY HEATED, they are in your face and they drop their hands down in an unguarded position at their side, pop’em.
When I say pop’em, I mean punch in the nose.
Thought I better make that clear.
This article reminds me of a conversation I had with a friend many years ago. He, still upset from the incident, was telling me about his teenage son being hospitalized after a severe beating at the hands of an older man.
As closely as I can remember this is what he recounted telling his son as he visited with him in the hospital:
Son, if you think a man is about to hit you, hit him first, if you get lucky you might knock him down, if you do knock him down get on top of him and beat him until he stops moving. Son, I’d rather bale you out of jail that visit you in a hospital bed.
Charlie in Coastal NC
Agreed – also do not assume it will be a fair fight, either. Numbers, weapons, even feints/retreats/counters can come to play in a street fight.
Back in my younger years we were on a fraternity function… a bunch of townies decided to pick a fight with us. We all got separated from each other and could not “circle the wagons.” I, as the biggest in the class, was singled out and found myself against 3 guys… 2 were ok sized, 1 was a big dude about my size. I backed myself against a fence so I couldn’t be ganged up on, then rushed like a bezerker at the biggest dude (the one I wanted sneaking up on me the LEAST). I was channeling the spirit of the badger for sure… We grappled a bit and I was able to smash his back against a car a few times and take some of the fight out of him while his buddies sort of waited around – it was like a kung fu movie where they were waiting for an opening…
I guess I seemed crazy enough that they didn’t want to have a try, and then the cops pulled up and chased them away. They recognized those guys as a bunch of troublemakers and sent us on our way.
These days, pull that stunt in a bar or something and EVERYONE goes to the pokey…
I took Hapkido ( Korean) for about six years. The one thing we were taught to the end was 1. if you can’t see you can’t fight. 2. if you can’t breath you can’t fight. 3. if you can’t walk you can’t fight.
Eyes, throat, sturnum, knees, ankles, whatever. But if your adversary is experiencing one of the 3, pretty good chance you will be the victor.
Good luck to us all…………
A “Fair”fight is when me and mine come back in one piece other than that no rules.
If you get arrested for “starting” a fight and you have a clean record (no arrests for violent acts before) your only going to get a slap on the wrist anyway, if anything. Especially since the “poor” guy you sucker punched most likely is going to have a record of violent acts. ” ” denote sarcasm!
If I think I or my family are in danger of physical harm from some thug/s Im going to start swinging like a mad man and worry about the legal consequences later.
Being I’m a woman, I debated jumping in on this one. But M.D. is right
and “The Ferret” states it just the way I learned it.
In High School I weighed 90 lbs sopping wet and a bully thought I was
going to be his next victim. I hit him hard, knocked him down, kicked him
in the head and ran like hell.
“Suicide” is against my religion.
Judith,
I would have loved to have seen that – bet he never bothered you again…
Two more maxims for your training: “He who hesitates loses,” and, “He who only defends, only loses.”
When the confrontation begins, hit first, hit hard, hit often and don’t stop till the opponent can’t get up, or you can’t.
The only “fair fight” is one you walk away from. If someone wants to fight clean, tell them that’s their option- not yours and a fight isn’t something you play by with someone else’s rules. The only rule in a fight is don’t think it’s going to be “fair”. If you’re the kind trying to build a following and become known as a “gentleman” or follow a “bushido” or “martial code”, go to a gym. They don’t belong in the field.
Egads, I could go on for hours about this and the maxims I tried teaching for 20 plus years.
Thought I might chime in here just because it is a topic I am kinda familiar with (God no I’m not a Lawyer or a criminal)…. my second post….. Oh no this is becoming a habbit…. This is in no way legal advise just my two cents.
1 Know the law of the land
2 Be able to articulate what you did and why.
This link is to the Canadian stuff but I’m sure all states ect. have thier stuff on line.
http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.html
http://www.efc.ca/pages/law/cc/cc.part-i.html
Some blurbs from the above links
SELF-DEFENCE AGAINST UNPROVOKED ASSAULT
… / Extent of justification.
34. (1) Every who is unlawfully assaulted without having provoked the assault is justified in repelling force by force if the force he uses is not intended to cause death or grievous bodily harm and is no more than is necessary to enable him to defend himself.
(2) Every one who is unlawfully assaulted and who causes death or grievous bodily harm in repelling the assault is justified if
(a) he causes it under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence with which the assault was originally made or with which the assailant pursues his purposes; and
(b) he believes, on reasonable grounds, that he cannot otherwise preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm. [R.S. c.C-34, s.34.]
SELF-DEFENCE IN CASE OF AGGRESSION.
35. Every one who has without justification assaulted another but did not commence the assault with intent to cause death or grievous bodily harm, or has without justification provoked an assault on himself by another, may justify the use of force subsequent to the assault if
(a) he uses the force
(i) under reasonable apprehension of death or grievous bodily harm from the violence of the person whom he has assaulted or provoked, and
(ii) in the belief, on reasonable grounds, that it is necessary in order to preserve himself from death or grievous bodily harm;
(b) he did not, at any time before the necessity of preserving himself from death or grievous bodily harm arose, endeavour to cause death or grievous bodily harm; and
(c) he declined further conflict and quitted or retreated from it as far as it was feasible to do so before the necessity of preserving himself from death or grievous bodily harm arose. [R.S. c.C-34, s.35.]
I agree with you MD … A number of years ago I had to get a fill-up in South Dallas (TX), but it was 11:30 PM. As I pumped the gas (wife and young son in the car), I was approached by a man that instantly put me on alert. He was quiet and speaking in a low voice about “people not wanting to help people” and he may have been harmless. But … I sensed danger.
The only thing I had was the gas pump and just as I was preparing to clobber him with it, the man on the other side of the gas pump (also pumping gas) called him by name and firmly told him to move along, which he did. Turned out this man was a parole officer!
With my family to think about, I would have been quite willing to use the pump as a club if necessary and then douse him with gas if needed. Glad I didn’t have to … but we must be prepared and quick thinking!
I realize some my not like my approach, but that’s the way it was (and is).
Plain English
Do WHATEVER it takes to win/survive as you can’t help family/friends if you reside in a body bag.
All of this talk about first strikes is real good info. the talk I have seen about the sucker punch has all left out the bestest and fastest way to both sucker punch and quite possibly end the fight with one blow, the open handed slap to the face/cheek area. I have seen this work many times and was taught it by my dad back in my youthful days. I thought he didn’t have a clue until the first time it happened to me, a rude awaking on my part, and a useful trick in my bag ever since.
Bestest???? Bitchslap?????? Come on man.
well, truth is ive only been in two fights in my 50 years of being alive. thank GOD im huge and people generally leave me alone,but the truth is im a terrible fighter and cant wrap my mind around striking another person.the two fights i did have ,i knocked my opponent out both times but it absolutely sickens me to resort to violence,and i still think about that last fight (10 years ago) because i was so angry after i knocked him out that i walked away and turned back around and hit him a few more times. whats scary is that i was capable of that kind of unnecesary violence(after he was out).i hope i never have to do that again.
I’m off subject but good news: The Arizona legislature passed concealed carry without permit. Governor Brewer signed the bill this afternoon (4/16/10) and the law goes into affect in about 90 days.
Last week saw AZ enact a law that will make firearms manufactured and kept in AZ exempt from federal laws and regulation.
Yee-haw!! Let’s hear it a big hurrah for a victory for liberty!!!
Hey Wardog,THAT IS GREAT NEWS!!! Now if some more of the states would only follow that example!
While I generally agree with ‘striking’ first, I don’t think you should hit the other person with just a fist. I’ve been in a few street fights, and the one thing I’ve learned is this: I’m not a professional boxer.
Unless you’ve spent some serious time throwing punches at a moving, defendable target, the person you are fighting will likely be able to stand your first blow, if it’s lucky enough to land.
My advice is this: Grab their shirt with both hands high on their chest, elbows out, and push as hard as you can. Within a couple of steps, the other person should be on the ground, and you’ll be in the full guard position. From there, I like using the ‘club’ method, instead of a punch. IE, you ball your hand into a fist, and swing down towards their nose, hitting with the bottom of your hand (like you’re holding a knife and you’re trying to stab down into something).
Punching from the full guard position takes too long, and requires you to draw up into a strikable distance. By pounding, you get a lot of force in a little amount of space.
You don’t have to do anything fancy, just get the person on the ground, with you on top of them. Most people anticipate a street fight to take place like some kind of boxing match, so the other person won’t likely anticipate you throwing them to the ground. This is clear from all of my experience and the posts here.
Also, don’t be afraid of getting punched. Unless you’re fighting someone that weighs a LOT more than you, or a professional fighter, the adrenaline will be enough to take the first 5 or 6 punches anyway. Obviously, try to block the punches, but if one or two graze you, don’t go into the defensive. Get the person on the ground and beat the piss out of them.
Hi Michael,
This sounds similar to a self defense video I saw.It says to keep your hand open,aim at their face,and push their chin backwards with the base of your palm.Continue to force them backwards this way until they fall.You can also knee them in the privates before they do, or wait until they are down, and either make a run for it, or beat the crap out of them once they are down. They illustated it many times in the video, and it worked every time.
This actually snaps the bad guys head back, and he is fearing that you will hurt his eyes, once he is off balance, you keep pushing him back until he goes down. It was a great video.
You guys have too much class for me. I live by “It’s not how you play the game,it’s winning that counts”. Do whatever and use whatever you have to win a fight. Another good one is what Murphy said earlier ” If you stay out of bars you don’t get in bar fights”. If you stay out of troubled areas,you generally don’t have to defend yourself or others. I just don’t go where trouble could be and I usually don’t have any trouble. Always been lucky that way.
You nailed it. The very few fights that I’ve gotten into was the result of me running my mouth and escalating the situation instead of walking away when someone was messing with me. The “sticks and stones may break my bones” saying is a load of crap, words CAN hurt you if you piss someone off that’s twice your size and you let them get the first hit.
Very lucky Mechanic.
Two of the most dangerous situations I have ever been in was at
the Market and at the Ice Cream Parlour of all places. Both times it
was teenagers . The market I used the shopping cart to slam them
and keep my purse from getting snatched. And the Ice cream parlour
we were able to get away from trouble because we recognized a
dangerous situation developing.
Hey, stay away from brawlers who tell you to throw the first punch without any disclaimers. You will find them, for the most part, doing 90 days in the county jail. There is a big difference between a sucker punch and a pre-emptive strike. But it is so much better to try and talk you way out of a fight then it is to risk life and limb breaking your hands on some stupids head. And if they use a weapon than look for hard time if it is an injury. This is bad advise without clarification. Your advise is usually so well thought out and sensible. I have no earthly idea why you would post this. Try again.
Doc..
I take it you don’t live close to a big city. Some of these thugs would rather be in jail, so they can get their “three hots and a cot”. If you try and talk your way out of a fight with these ‘gangstas’, it will only show weakness and they will pounce on that. If you knew how to throw a punch, then you wouldn’t break you hand on their head. And finally, if they use a weapon, why would you care if they do time or not, because you would be dead ( in mid negotiation sentence ).
If you have no earthly idea why a self defense topic would be brought up on a survival blog, then I am confused. Self defense and survival go hand in hand. I hope your family knows how to fight, because you certainly won’t be any help to them.
Doc,
It seems you missed the point – go back and read the title and post slowly. I’ll wait……
Okay, the post isn’t about fighting or controlling your drunk buddy at a party but about self-defense where someone is intent on doing you harm.
About throwing the first strike go back and read that part again – I said “This is called a sucker punch – if you must fight, it is a powerful weapon, use it.”
As for going to jail – I’ve been there charged with aggravated assault – later ruled self-defense with all charges dropped. I’m sure if I had tried talking (begging) him to stop his aggressive behavior without taking the opportunity to get the upper hand I don’t think things would have turned out well.
Im with MD. In grade school i was tought to never throw the first punch. This usually led to me getting a fat lip before i got to throw a punch. After that first punch it was on, it always seemed to end on the ground in either a headlock or chock hold. After a short stent in the Army I picked up a few things, all the chock holds, pressure points, or body blows dont mean anything if you got a knife or bullet in you. Strike first and strike often, the key to keeping you out of jail is knowing when to stop. Thats when some training will do you some good. Learning to control yourself once the blood gets pumping.
Case in point, few years ago during a New Years party at a family members house, a guest was told to not enter the house. He had already gotten into it with several people and we were waiting for his ride to show up. I just happen to be comming out of the house after checking on my kids who were asleep inside, when he started to push his way past toward the door. This guy had to weigh twice what i do but there was no way he was getting inside. I grabbed him by the shirt and we had some words, my intention was to throw him over the porch rail but i just didnt have the strength so i pinned him aginst it. Now, had I not known how to handle the adrenaline rush, I wouldnt of seen him reaching behind his back. What I didnt know was he had a pistol in a rear mount holster. As soon as i saw his hands move to the back I head butted him as hard as i could three times, breaking his nose and a few teeth. It all happend so fast that my brother, a U.S. Marine, who was standing behind me, didnt have time to do anything but grab the guy after he was bleeding all over. Thats when they saw the gun, and several other guys stepped in. The guys ride called the police who came out to the house several hours later, and laughed when he saw me. It did go to court and the judge, who you could see really wanted to laugh at the guy, threw the whole case out. The guys lawyer tried using the fact that i was in the Army, and therefor a deadly weapon, hahahahahah, if you seen me you would laugh too i weigh 120lbs.
My point is when SHTF and your faced with a situation that may put your family in harm, you dont have to go all out and beat someone half to death to control the situation. Being calm and aware of whats going around you will do you much more good than all the training in the world. You should of learned back in grade school that your forehead is vary very hard. You may have a head ache the next day but you will know your still alive.
Line from “The Dark Knight” Alfred the Butler to Bruce Wayne “Some men just want to see the world burn”.
Another great line from “Tombstone” Doc holiday to wyatt talking about Johnny Ringo… Doc “He wants revenge” Wyatt “for what”? Doc “For being born”.
Good example, fictitious or not, of the type of people who will NOT let you walk away from a fight they are attempting to provoke.
You try to walk away, talk you way out, your weak and ripe for attack, you stand your ground verbally and he/they wait for the right time to attack ( general rule is they are waiting for an acceptable audience, size and or ethnic make up to insure you can’t back out of the fight circle or beat a hasty retreat).
Perhaps the article should have stated to “recognize a situation” for what it is, not what you want it to be. Avoid possibe “no win” situations whenever possible, but do NOT fail to recognize the “must fight” situation when it presents itself, and then, fight like hell! Strike first! strike often! stomp an instep, throw kicks just above the knees at the side of your opponents legs, disable him and beat feet out of the A/O!
The ambush is a very effective tactic. No wonder it’s been used by the military for hundreds of years, as the counter ambush is also.
Principals of an ambush:
Wait until you can inflict maximum damage.
Strike hard and fast.
Conduct a QUICK assesment of damage.
Clear the A/O before enemy re-enforcements arrive.
AVOID OPERATIONS IN THE AREA IN THE FUTURE ( Prime area for a counter ambush).
From my prospective, the article dealt with RECOGNIZATION of the SITUATION, not to confuse a verbal joust with a truly potential physical altercation. Situational awareness. To be mindful of your suroundings and the potential for a no retreat situation.
Just my 2 cents
Hi Dean,
You seem to have a great deal of familarity with street thugs, weapons charges and the penal system. Therefore I bow to your superior knowledge of street brawling. However, please allow me to make a few suggestions;
In a survival situation (you shouldn’t be doing barroom fights,),
1) Escape or avoidance is preferable to fighting. In a family group even one casualty is to many.
2) Hiding is preferable to fighting.
3) Deception or concealment is preferable to fighting.
4) Talking is better then fighting. (we don’t do barroom brawls)
4) If fighting is necessary and as a LAST resort, then you use weapons.
5) If fighting is necessary no quarter is asked nor none give.
6) If you do fight, it must be a fight for total and permanent death of the other. No holds barred. No rules. (I have a lot of combat time and combat on the streets of Detroit, I can tell you first hand that the human body can take an awfull lot of damage before it goes down. And an opponent can be mortally wounded and still kill you) But on the other hand it would be hard to explain why you shot or stabbed a man dead for knocking over your beer.
Don’t fight;
1) Barroom brawls
2) Over shopping carts at Walmart
3) Street fights over someone cutting you off or blowing his horn at you.
4) A neighbor aggrevating you.
5) Bad calls at games
6) Kids getting into it. (to avoid this send your kids to private schools)
7) Another man’s wife making comments about your wife wearing those shoes with that dress at the country club.
8) Deliverymen or hubsands of domestics.
9) People cutting in line at the grocery store.
10) This list is not all inclusive but I hope it helps. As a rule of thumb just say, “Is this fight something that would get me a spot on the Jerry Springer Show/”
AND FINALLY DO NOT BE A SURVIVALIST, BE A PREPPER. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst. But, if the collaspe comes be prepared to switch menatality from a prepper to a survivor. Good luck.
Doc,
You might want to read:
Prepper vs Survivalist
Are you a Survivalist or Prepper?
Good luck
M.D. I loved the comments on “Are you a Survivalist or Prepper.
I wish you would do that one again.
MD Creekmore -
Might be interesting & fun to do a pole to see who is a Prepper & who is a Survivalist (Like the pole you did for the economic news where you simply vote for one with a click).
At the conclusion of the voting period, run your Prep VS Survivalist piece. It may wake up a lot of folks.
BTW – a huge congrats on your success with the daily hits and emails you get on a daily basis. It speaks volumes about the great work you are doing.
Eric will see things differently when gets into high school and stops reading the ninja comics.
The two fingered eye-gouge, a la Moe Howard is a dangerous technique.
All your opponent has to do is hold up a knife-hand block and you miss both eyes. Much better to attack one eye at a time.
Also, and I used to see this all the time training kids in self defense – if your target is the eye, you will subconsciously start to “pull” your blow before you contact the eye. The way to avoid this is to visualize your finger striking the back of your opponent’s skull. Then, when you hit the eye, you are are not slowing down your strike.
I trained in Krav Maga, and I like their slogan “the only rule is: there are no rules”.
By the way, this visualization techniques works in all kinds of situations. Suppose you are throwing a punch to the solar plexus – don’t aim for the solar plexus, imagine your are punching THOUGH the abdomen to hit the spine. This also works in knife fighting through a phenomenon known as “tissue compression”. A while back, a man was murdered in my neighborhood by a strike to the front of the abdomen with a 3″ blade pocket knife, which cut his aorta in two. Now, even in a non-obese individual, the aorta is about eight inches from the front of the abdomen – but when you strike a punching blow, the abdominal tissue will compress, allowing you to reach much deeper structures than the length of your blade.
MD, God, but I love this website!!! Where everyone one here is wrong but me……This is bloody great!!!!
Doc..
If you are so superior to all of us, then maybe you should go start up some tree hugger blog somewhere.
Regarding your previous reply, I grew up on the streets of Detroit. Not yet being 40 yrs old, I am familiar with the current attitudes of the asshole thugs. Maybe you could talk your way out of a fight, or run and hide in a corner when you were here, but now, you better be prepared to stand your ground. When faced with a survival situation, if you take the time to rationalize the consequences of your actions, you have wasted valuable time, further adding to your problems.
But I guess nothing any of us say will actually sink in until you get your ass kicked.
Another great posting MD. It really shows the difference between the practical posts and those who post from theory.
I have always felt that when faced with a confrontation that you cannot avoid, hit back first.
Just another post showing the survival genius of M.D Creekmore.
Hey Eric and Doc, can I get your locations so when TSHTF I can just come by your place and take your stuff? It sounds like Doc is gonna be hiding in the bathroom and Eric is gonna be asking me about my feelings while I’m taking all their preps. On the other hand, peope like you will make it that much easier for the rest of us to survive so I guess I should be thanking you.
LOL!!!
Being a girl, I haven’t been in any real fights, seen alot in my drinking days.
I did get a black eye when I was 8; another girl was picking on 2 of my friends while walking home from school, I ran up beside them to tell her to leave them alone and I was all set to give her a good shove too (sounds lame but hey – I was a little girl!). Anyway ran up and before I could open my mouth this girl spun towards me with a roundhouse and got me fair in the eye.
Fight over.
I certainly wasn’t expecting it, perhaps a bit of shoving and taunting but that was it. I didn’t fall over but it was a close thing. Cried all the way home, felt dizzy for ages and had a hell of a bruise for the next few days. Of course kids being kids we made friends while waiting outside the principals office while our mums were inside hashing out punishments no doubt. lol
So, the suprise, shock and pain was enough for her to win the fight without retaliation. It would win alot of fights.
As for the ‘go crazy’ approach, seen it to pretty good effect on a night out. Drinking in a club with several male friends, one gets in a blue with some other guy – its a bit lame but the bouncers (security) come over to collar them both and throw them out. Another friend who’d been quietly drinking at the bar and watching the pathetic shove fight suddenly sprung to life at the sight of his mate being thrown out. He launches himself at the trio (2 bouncers and his mate), sends them all sprawling onto the floor and starts punching indiscriminately. Another couple of bouncers rush over to help and now this guy is going ape, thrashing, punching, kicking. No one can get a hold of him. More bouncers come, it was quite a spectacle to see him being carried out horizontally, still thrashing wildly, in the arms of 9 large men who were barely able to hold onto him. Once outside he was kneeled on by 2, with arms and legs pinned by another man each, while another tried to kick him wherever there was a spot free.
So in the end he was overwhelmed but he would of got the better of them if there were only 5. All bigger than him too I might add and with nightly experiance (not that most bouncers are good fighters – they usually rely on their numbers and that most men they have to throw out can’t see straight).
I can see that your instructor was wise beyond his years and he gave you the best advice anyone could ever have. He wanted you to be able to protect your self under real circumstances in the real world. The studio is ‘one place’ and usually under controlled circumstances but the real world is ‘another’ and is unpredictable. I don’t know where you got all of your intelligence but you’re definitely not ignorant and I’m sure that you’d be the one left standing in many a circumstance. The first smart thing to do is, if you can run away from a fight, that’s what you do. If you’re cornered, then if you can’t find a way to get away then fight until you can. If you’re stuck and have no choice but to fight for your life, then you should learn Dim Mak, go to dimmakworld.com or .org, there’s a book offered called the two dragons of dim mak which teaches how to defend the proper way and how to heal your self or others should you or they be hit in any of those life-threatening areas upon the body and then prepare to keep your back to a wall or, rather, make sure no one can get behind you because that is when they can grab you around the throat with their forearm, place you off-balance and then get you down and harm you very badly. If they know how to hit meridians or access areas that can kill you then your chances of survival may be very slim especially if there’s two or more attacking you. I’ve been confronted with someone who was angry not of my own fault but because, at that time in their life, everything and I mean EVERYTHING made them mad. They tried to slap me ‘up side the head’, I blocked him at the wrist/forearm area, lifted and pushed my foot into his Dantien/navel area and he landed in his bathtub. He proceded to get up…bad move. Anyway, a friend of his stopped him as he knew if he were to commence coming at me again it would have not been a good situation for the guy. I’m not saying that I’ve won all battles but an attacker WILL get back up, especially when they are minorly or hardly harmed and that’s what you have to keep them from doing. If I hadn’t known martial arts nor how to defend myself I may have been another person who had to receive stitches or a cast. I’ve had my share of childhood battles, one guy throwing rocks at me, harrassing me at the age of 11. It was so unexpected but after the first two or three rocks, I began to walk right toward him while he was smiling and smarting off to me, I was talking down to him and then as soon as I got close enough, I kicked him right in the shin. The next day my brother told me that the kick that I had delivered left the old boy limping and with a massive bruise and that the boy was sorry that he had attacked me. One thing I learned about why I had been attacked was that it was something to do with my older brother and sister and that the kids that they knew had grown to dislike them and that they were doing what they did to me in order to cause real problems with my siblings. They were trying to set up my siblings for whatever reason and I have never asked for I believe it is best to let sleeping dogs remain in slumber. A few months later, while standing in the cold Minnesota snow, don’t live with the horseflies any longer thankfully, one girl attacked my sister, then my brother was confronted by one guy his age and then the sister of the attacker of my sister attacked me. My trusty and superemely thick snowmobile suit protected my body very well and all she could get to was my head which she didn’t do very well. In the time I lived in Minnesota after things got started with my brother and sister, I took one punch to the jaw by a girl which was two or three years older than me and the two events with the rock-throwing boy and fighting snow girl. I learned that snowmobile suits are a good thing (ha, ha) and go for your attacker before he has a chance to throw the second rock. If he’s commencing to pick up something off the ground…like a rock…don’t trust him and get him before he can get you.
I have been in a few fights over the years.Nearly all of them were in self defense. I found out at a young age that a lot of people are just mouth, and when you tell them to “Bring it on, I’m ready.Let’s go!,” many will then start backing out fast. I guess I was never one to fear them much, even though I had my tail kicked a few times, it never created a fear in me. Thank God. I never cared if they were over six foot, (I’m 5 foot) I never would allow people to think they could hurt me without me fighting back, and they usually were left with injuries too.(some of which I was quite proud of!)
When I was a kid, I was being harassed by a guy twice my size, and one knee to the groin, and that was over. Fast. Another time there was a kid I didn’t know, also throwing stones. I chased him down and nearly broke his fingers. Had the kid on his knees crying and begging, and had to do it twice before he realized he wasn’t going to win. If you can get ahold of someone’s fingers, you can put them down pretty fast, no matter how big they are.Bend them backwards. Hard, and don’t let go.
I never was very good at punching the right spot, unless I was VERY angry and just ‘lost it.’ But if you aren’t that angry, look for the nearest club, stick, anything that you can swing. You’ll do much better with it than just trying to punch them.(Suggestion for ladies, or guys who can’t punch well) If nothing is close, you can often run and grab something before they grab you.
And if you get pinned, biting works pretty good. (hopefully they aren’t diseased!)
Every situation is different, every offender has a different motive or thought process or plan.Sometimes you have to just THINK like them, and it can save you. If you know their next move, you can prepare for it. I had a guy try to climb over me to get in my car one night, and I just threw the car in reverse and nearly broke his legs.This put a quick stop to what would have been a rape, and who knows what else.
Acting can make for a good escape if you don’t think you can win a fight.Just pretend that you are on their side and will do whatever they want, and then either find a weapon, or make a run for it when you get a chance.
Another time, I was in a club (before I became a Christian.) and there was a weirdo in there who wouldn’t tell anyone his name.(?) This told me right off that he was up to no good, and was planning something. I avoided him all evening, but when I went out to get in my car at closing, the psycho was IN MY CAR.!!! There was nowhere to run, and no one to help.I had a screwdriver in the car seat and was ready to plant it in his throat if I had to, but a simple lie worked good enough.I could tell by what he was saying that he was planning on killing me. I thought quick, pretending to think that he only wanted sex, and I lied and told him I had aids. I said that if any of my blood got on him, that he would catch it. After a bit of telling him about it, he finally decided I wasn’t worth the risk, and he got out of my car and left. Thank God!!
A girlfriend of mine fell for a trap one night. Please listen to this so you never fall for it yourself. She left a bar one night, took a backroad to head home, and she came to a BRANCH laying across the road. She said she GOT OUT of her car to go move the branch, and a man came up behind her, put a gun to her head, and raped her right there in the street. She was messed up for a long time after that. So NEVER stop and get out to move something in the road unless you are prepared for an attack like this. BACK UP if you have to, and go a different route!!
The better scenario is to keep your handgun on you at all times, and you can let it do the fighting for you, but the best scenario is to avoid the likely places of attack in the first place.
Wow… this explains a lot, thank you.
Good advice about the road hazard & feel sorry for your girl friend, that was terrible.
Wit,
You’re welcome. My friend was scared to death for a couple years after that incident.Any noise behind her freaked her out. She’s doing better now,though. I actually had to break into her apartment right after it happened, and found her hiding behind the sofa in a fetal position. It was very sad, so I’m glad she’s better now, and living a normal life again.
I must say that I’ve had more than my share of fighting in self defense, but I think there is a big difference in the fighting where you get your tail kicked, and the fighting that I think we will face in the future. There’s a big difference when you know someone wants to kill you, and not just beat you up. I think the future scenario will be a lot more of ‘kill you,’ and a lot less ‘beat you up.’ I think we will have to change our own methods and thought on this , too., because I think we will be forced to kill or be killed.
For instance, the psycho man of the future would never have given up like that,and I would have been forced to USE the screwdriver.
The Bible says that peace will be taken from the earth, that they should kill one another. Sounds pretty nasty.
I saw a bar fight years ago that left me speechless.I hate to even tell the story, because it is so gross, but I think these are the types of things coming..
These two guys got in an argument, and then split up, each going to the opposite end of the bar.You could tell they were still really mad.Well, one of them was about two seats away from me.Anyway, the guy from the far end of the bar came over to the one near me, threw him on the floor really fast, and stabbed him in the EYE with his pocket knife, about three fast jabs. It happened so fast, the guy near me didn’t even have a chance or suspect it. I got the heck out of there as fast as I could, and never found out if the guy died or not, but I think he would have, as bad as that was. I think these are the sort of people who will be on the streets. So what can you do? Either hide out constantly, or shoot anyone who comes near you? M.D….Got any suggestions for that?? I never go to bars anymore, but I really think that people like this will be everywhere.So what can you do? Suggestions?
This website is a really great survival resource and this is a great post on self defense. In a real self defense situation absolutely fight dirty.
I think it’s a good idea to look at MMA for some ideas. Obviously MMA techniques are not automatically the most usefull for every self defense situation, but they are proven effective in some context. I like to consider what is illegal in mma as an important list of things that you absolutely should consider doing in a real fight.
Eye gougeing, strikes to the throat, back of the head, neck and spine. Small joint attacks to the fingers and wrist, biting. These things are illegal for a reason, the same reason we should consider using them.
But as someone stated its important to really be able to assess your situation. Is it really a self defense situation or just a fight? If its a fight you can probably walk away, maybe use your trusty bitch slap. If its really a self defense situation then pain will not stop them, do anything you can and use any weapon you can find.
Just to be clear though, I am not advocating ever assuming someone who puts their hands on you is anything less then a commited attacker. That kind of thinking might get you killed. If someone grabs me then I will treat them as a threat to my life until its clear they are no longer a threat.
I’m amazed that so many have been in self defence situations. I lived near South Central L.A., played hoops there, eventually taught martial arts there & did full contact in a So Cen LA studio and have never been in a street fighting situation – close but never. I am a 6′ 4″ white guy as well & stood out like a strawberry in a bowl of milk.
I was once stopped in the middle of the street, literally, by some major tattoed Mexican gang members and they let me go without an issue – it probably helped that I speak Spanish.
I rarely raise my voice or argue because nothing to me is worth the headache.
I guess if you don’t look for it, you don’t find it.
That being said, when TSHTF I’m afraid it’ll be a different story & I carry weapons at all times now & have learned how to use most anything as a weapon – like this post talks about ~
sorry, I didn’t mean my post to sound like a been there done that kind of thing. The main point Im trying to make is that a commited attacker pumped full of rage or adrenaline is not going to stop because you hurt them a little. In the dojo we hit someone a little hard or we get thumped it probably stops us in our tracks. In a real self defense situation if you are not actually doing damage you will most likely accomplish nothing. Pain is barely noticed under the influenced of adrenaline. So I think it makes sense to look at the attacks that are illegal in cage fighting. These things end lives and end carreers based on real world experience, that makes them potentially usefull.
Hi B.G., If I’m thinking, next time will be a forceful knee to the groin, if there IS a next time. I hope not, but you never know.And I will be sure that there is something handy to swing, just in case! I don’t think I will be trying that ‘ first punch’ deal again, without any proper back-up! LOL
Just too hard on the head!
I usually try to avoid fighting, and I can tolerate a lot, but when someone is about to destroy things that I worked my tail off to pay for, then they will have a battle on their hands, even if I lose.(Just gotta make that ‘losing’ thing LESS LIKELY next time!! Thanks for the comments!
I think the most of my issues were raised for several reasons. Number one, I was an attractive female. Number two, I am small, and people seem to take that as weakness, thinking they can get away with whatever they want to. And number three, when they find out I won’t LET them get away with whatever they want to, it caused a fight. I might be small, but I’m strong, and I won’t tolerate being treated wrongly. Unfortunately, men can be overly posessive and controlling with small attractive women, and I’ve had to deal with that most of my life.Needless to say, I’ve seen my share of abuse, even though most of it came because I was only trying to GET AWAY from the abusers and they wouldn’t let me LEAVE. Being held a prisoner is no fun, trust me. Fortunately, I learned how to escape by various means, and to avoid men that showed similar traits..although they could be quite deceptive sometimes.
I’ve had girl friends who were small and attractive, and they always seemed to have the same problems, so I know I am not alone in this.
Consider yourself blessed, Wit.Not too many people would try any of that on someone your size.
Actually Babs the smaller people have tried to provoke me. When I did full contact we were matched up by rank only and size didn’t matter (for this example – ha, ha). The smaller guys most always tried like heck because knocking down someone much bigger gave a greater sense of satisfaction. Besides, if the larger opponent won, what else would you expect?
My chief martial arts instructor taught me the value of walking away WHEN possible. The confronter can say & spit whatever they want but if you can leave with sustaining injuries only to your pride, you’ll be better off. Like your story about the guy who took the knife into his eye, was the point of that argument really important? He would be alive today if he swallowed his pride.
Am I blessed as you described? Mark Twain once said “the harder I work, the luckier I get” and I work very hard avoiding confrontation. However, I work equally as hard to be prepared when my Plan A fails which means a well placed first strike – knee, groin, collar bone, nose, etc., I constantly analyze & rehearse it all in my mind’s eye.
I think you are smart enough to figure out how to get away from threatening situations – it’s far better to use your brain than your emotions because damaged pride never requires sutures.
M.D., I also have a comment on the “Strike First” plan. This is not always a good move, or should I say it should be carefully considered before put in action!
The last time I tried this, it was a complete failure. Someone was bad mouthing me, harassing me and trying to destroy my personal property, so I finally lost my temper and punched him one in the face.(This was after A LOT of provocation.) I ended up with a concussion and a lot of bruising, and headaches for a couple months.I suggest if anyone uses this ‘strike first’ technique, that they first grab a big stick to use to do it with, unless they are prepared to deal with a Tasmanian Devil. I got an apology after the incident, when the person finally realized how wrong they were, but that didn’t help my injuries any!! And I still wish I would have had something to hit him with before taking the first hit.(He wasn’t even hurt!!!)
Did you just punch him once? If he’s ready for you, you’re going to have trouble disabling him with one strike.
A different kind of a suggestion for the “strike first” plan: Therapy
This could be the best preemptive first strike for some individuals.
Wit, No chance.
N.D., I only had time for one. Then the tornado hit that very instant.
Well I had an uncle who taught me to fight. Being that I was always the next to shortest kid in the class..lol… He taught me to go low and work my way up. Knees, nuts, throat and eyes. Once they are down on the ground proceed to stomp the @#$t out of them. And if you do get pinned bite in the soft spots if you must. Anything at hand weather it is a stick, brick, or garbage can lid is fair game. And I can honestly say I only lost one fight and it took 3 people to do it. Then later I got each one of them alone with four friends of my own. Enough said. There is no such thing as a fair fight unless your prepared to get the worst of it.
And by the way the uncle who taught me did time for biting a guys nose off in a bar fight. But he is still my favorite uncle. lol!
Bars are a great place to AVOID if you like your health, and life. Alcohol turns some people into complete idiots, and you never know what they will do. Like the bar fight described above.
Tell your uncle not to go to bars and he won’t have to be serving anymore time. It’s just not worth it!!
He doesn’t anymore. Too old .lol!
I am a 40 year old female. I also grew up on the streets of Detroit. One thing I have learned is that there is just no “talking” or reasoning with some people. If some thug is intending to harm me and rob me, or worse, it is a waste of time to try talking him out of it. I wish I had known more self-defense (even pre-emptive) while I was growing up.
to all above – my son was leaving a property when several guys started vandalizing his vehicle, one guy decided to attack my son. my son walked backwards away telling the attacker to stop. the attacker continued. when the attacker went to takle my son, my son stabbed the attacker in the the side of his face with a screw driver and the attacker died.
My point is, how far do you walk backwards with your hand out telling someone to leave you alone, while in the back ground your vehicle is getting demolished before you have to defend yourself?
One more warning – now days your guilty until proven inocent!
I’ve had two particularly bad attacks.
First I’ll tell you I’m 6’2″ and about 260 lbs so I don’t get into much trouble and never start it. I’m ex military.
The first time I tried to stop a large group from breaking into my car and stealing my stereo. I know nothings worth getting killed etc. over. I pulled out the guy doing the actual stealing and they all attacked. While I was up and in a narrow spot I did OK, then I fell. While they were kicking me on the ground I reached up and grabbed one of them by the groin and pulled him down and totally made a mess of him. The last thing I remember was a boot in the face. The hospital was amazed with so many fractures I survived.
The next was a couple years ago, in my 50′s. I was carrying a couple bags home and some “Bloods” confronted me for the bags and my wallet. I said no. And while they were looking at each other laughing I punched the leader in the throat and head butted him. I punched him a couple more times in the throat and managed to break an arm. I picked up my bags and walked home while the others stared at me. The police came, I was charged with assault, then dismissed. I did end up moving as they threatened my family and the police did nothing that I was aware of. Bottom line, I’ll fight as hard and dirty as I can with full intent to kill. That usually amazes even those who out number you. Good luck all, and peace if that’s possible. I’ve had a few other small incidences in which I won, but they were quick and over almost before they started. We live in a pretty good neighbourhood now.
my son was only visiting the area he was in.
we are experiencing such horrible media slamming. I was told it’s because we are not from there.
Back in my day a fight was a simple fight then left alone, now days it’s fight till the end then if your alive you have to deal with the law.
deal with the law or retaliation.
I hope and pray none of that goes on!
Thanks for the feed back.
That’s OK. When I was a kid, fights were ended the first guy to fall down. Now that’s where the fights really get going.
It’s funny that I said we moved to a better place. We had a run in with one of the neighbours who called me a dipsh*t because I told his noisy pack of dogs to shut up. I said I wasn’t a dipsh*t and he said that’s debatable. Me being “no one treads on me type”. Said OK, lets discuss it then. He backed off. We have been thinking on moving back to the country, and this just hastens it. What a world it has become. Your son did the right thing under the circumstances. Tell him I give him a gold star, one for you too.
Hang in there,
Errol
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