How to Get a C&R License – But Is It A Good Idea From A Survival Perspective?

Guest post by Jean

I first got my C & R license about 10 years ago when I was an editor of a beach town newspaper in north carolina. I had read up about it before I became the news editor and it sounded like a good idea to get certain guns directly through the distributor. Basically what a C and R license is a Collector’s License of Curios and Relics. The guns you are allowed to get are labeled C & R (Curios and Relics guns) by the ATF. You get the paperwork from the ATF and here is a link to help you get started.

Basically what you do is you get the application from contacting the ATF as follows: Calling the BATF at 404-417-2750 or 866-662-2750. After you fill out the application they issue you a license that’s good for several years. The fee is pretty cheap as well. One of the things you need to do is go to your local law enforcement officer and fill out paperwork that they sign off on you (basically you get registered at a local law enforcement division). With me, I was working at a local beach community as the editor of the local newspaper and I got paperwork from the ATF and had the Police Chief sign off on me. It was no big deal.

Then you get the license from the ATF which you keep in a safe place and make a bunch of copies of. Then you take the copies and sign them and send them to Distributors like J and G Guns, Southern Ohio Guns or SOG, AIM, Century Arms and others. Here’s a link that can help you find distributors:

A gun distributor I have used extensively and has decently priced guns is SOG. I have also dealt favorably with AIM and Century Arms. I’m looking forward to dealing with J and G Guns. Take the time to update your license which the ATF will keep you appraised of, make sure to keep a record book which you will be told to do when you get your license and you should be good.

Here are some guns I recommend purchasing that are good buys for the money: Mosin Nagant rifles- One of the cheapest and most reliable guns on the market. The biggest drawback to them is the recoil. I recommend the 91/30 Model which is the longest because I suspect their recoil is the lightest. I’ve had several M44 models and they kick like mules but like most bolt-action guns are very reliable. Another gun I also recommend getting is the CZ-82. That looks and acts very similarly to a pocket 9mm gun like a Kel Tec but is considerably more affordable and shoots different ammo 9×18 (which is similar in velocity and recoil to a .380). Here are links to both guns from J and G.

I think if you want to acquire a battery of low price self-defense guns, the C and R license makes sense because almost all of the guns that are labeled C and R collectable guns are mainly ex-military guns which were designed as survival guns to begin with. Also by going the C and R route you go through the distributors only and avoid retailers who might rip you off. The cheapest C and R gun for the money is the Mosin Nagant. You should be able to buy 1000 or more rounds of non corrosive ammo plus the gun from a place like J and G for less than 200 dollars easily.

For a little less than 300 dollars, you should be able to get over 3000 rounds of corrosive Tokarev ammo (7x62x25) plus a Romanian Tokarev or a CZ-82 plus over 100 rounds of non corrosive ammo (9 x 18) from J and G. Those are good guns that you would have to spend over 300 to just get the comparable gun (9mm say) and even have to spend extra to get over 50 rounds of comparable ammo.

What do you think is a C & R license a good idea for the survivalist? Let us know in the comments below.

About M.D. Creekmore

M.D. Creekmore is the owner and editor of He is the author of four prepper related books and is regarded as one of the nations top survival and emergency preparedness experts. Read more about him here.


  1. templar knight says:

    For purely financial reasons it might be worth the effort, but I wonder if the survivalist/prepper would want to call attention to themselves by having to buy a license from ATF and having to register with local police. I’m thinking OPSEC here, and wonder if the money saved would be worth putting yourself on the radar.

    For instance, local police might have a list of firearm providers, and during unrest might decide your firearms would be best kept under their control, even if not legal per se. Think Katrina here, and what happened to law-abidding citizens. They had their firearms confiscated. The fact that they got them back later would be small comfort in a SHTF scenario, as that wouldn’t likely happen.

    • Dean in Michigan says:

      If you already legally own a firearm, then you’re already on record somewhere. Between purchase permits, registrations, or even those cheesy yellow forms you filled out at a gun show, someone knows you have those weapons.

      I certainly understand OPSEC, but getting caught with an unregistered weapon is a felony. If you buy privately, w/o a permit, it is your responsibility to register the weapon. I know this is the trap they set, but confinement is much worse than seizure.

      Your best bet for a weapon that doesn’t point to you is a family hand me down. I’m sure there are plenty of people who have “grandpas old shotgun”, or someone who has a Luger that made it back from Germany.

      Guess I’m just saying that obeying the law, while there is one, is the best bet.

      • Dean, I don’t know about Michigan, but in Florida there is no gun registration. Therefore, no felony. It is legal here to buy and sell guns for personal use without going through any paperwork at all and nobody has to know about it or track where the guns went. The only tracking is if you buy from a dealer, they have to do the Federal background check and keep their sales records on file at their place of business. The state and supposedly the federal authorities do not keep copies of anything more than 30 days.

        • OhioPrepper says:

          Ditto here in Ohio. Purchased from a dealer means filling out the form 4473, which remains with the dealer. The BATFE may inspect the dealer, and the forms are surrendered to the BATFE if the dealer goes out of business. A private purchase however needs no registration with anyone. When you meet the requirements for a Concealed Handgun License and it is issued, then the state knows you have the license, but has no indication whether or not you even own a firearm, let alone any details if you do.

        • templar knight says:

          Jack, we have the same law here in Arkansas. You can buy a firearm from a private party and there is no reporting requirement, nor yellow form to fill out. I would only suggest that one get a bill of sale if purchasing from a private party.

          • Dean in Michigan says:

            I should have been a bit more specific. Long guns are fine, if you have an unregistered “handgun”, even if you have a ccw, you will face some music.

            If you don’t have a record, then you probably won’t get the felony. But there will be hassel’s, and now you’re on the radar through different means.

          • OhioPrepper says:

            I missed the fact that you’re in Michigan. I have a good friend who grew up in the Detroit Metro area and told me about the hoops he had to jump through to buy his first .22 RF handgun. He now lives in Ohio and has no intention of going back other than to visit family.
            AFAIK, the only federal laws that apply here, and are IMHO rather stupid, is that you may purchase a handgun only from someone in your own state or a long gun only from someone in your own state or a directly adjacent state. So if I’m visiting someone in Pennsylvania and they have a long gun for sale, I may legally purchase it, but not so for a handgun. I work for a company in Arizona, and when I visit there I may not purchase a firearm either privately or from a dealer. The other federal restriction is that you must be a minimum age of 18 to purchase a long gun & 21 to purchase a handgun.
            As for the bill of sale, that’s a good idea for the buyer. I’ve only ever sold a few firearms, and I insist on seeing their ID to check their age, and residency. If I knowingly sell a handgun to someone out of state, that could come back on me. I also make note of the personal information including name, address, & age. The information isn’t going anywhere, but if in the future the gun is used in a crime it may be traced through to me, and I want to be able to say more than “I sold it to some stranger”

        • Same in New Mexico. No registration. By the way, what does OPSEC stand for?

          • Operations security (OPSEC)

          • Rev.Chance says:

            Operational Security. The plan that you employ to protect Yourself, loved ones and property.

          • OPSEC for the Army stands for ‘Operations Security’ and means keeping all information on a ‘need to know’ basis, and if you’re not involved in the operation, you don’t need to know. Think of the WWII slogan ‘Loose Lips Sink Ships’.

            For the prepper OPSEC means to keep your preps quiet, and make sure nobody in your family talks about your preps or the looters/MZBs will come for you after SHTF.

            MZB=Mutant Zombie Bikers 🙂

      • Richard Muszynski says:

        greetings. i have to wonder if you have pistols confused with long rifles or shotguns? unless it is a particular thing in Michigan to have to register rifles and shotguns with the police. Here in Maine we don’t register even pistols. and we have right to carry laws making it easy to get a concealed weapons permit. but for a rifle. just the yellow sheet saying we don’t plan to use the weapon to overthrow the government. and i have never heard of having to register a long gun you buy from a private citizen with the police or anyone else. and being on the C&R list that is with the local police is totally different then being on the ordinary transaction list with the feds. something happens locally like Kathrina and it is the local law that will take your weapons away, not the feds.

      • Rev.Chance says:

        Not all states reguire firearm registration.

  2. You can also use it at places like Brownells to get “FFL Dealer Discounts” on general gun gear. I came across a list on the web that listed all the places to get discounts. I’ll see what I can do about finding it again.

  3. It may make sense, and help you and your friends acquire some low cost firepower. The question I have is do you need a separate address for a C&R like you do for a standard FFL? If you don’t, is your premises vulnerable to random unannounced visits from the ATF? It may raise some eyebrows if during one of their “inspections” the wander across all of your preps. You could be accused of hoarding.

  4. I would encourage people to get this license. I have had one for multiple years now and it has allowed me to purchase a large assorment of rifles and handguns. While most are bolt action rifles older than 60-70 years, the ones I have gotten have been anywhere from very good to excellent condition. I can think of two mausers I picked up a couple of years back that looked like they had never even been fired. The only problem I can see in the near future is availability of different guns. When I got the license, there were anywhere from 20-30 different rifles and handguns readily available. These numbers have severely diminished over the last few years. Most of these guns come out of military arsenals around the world, and it just seems that there are not that many left to clear out. Having said that, there are still many great deals out there. The Mosin Nagant M91/30 is by far the best deal on the market right now. They look cheap, need to be manhandled when used, kicks like a mule, but they sure are fun to fire and are deadly accurate.

    I too was and am concerned about the OPSEC, and having to notify the Chief Law Enforcement Officer(CLEO) when you apply. All it really is though is a copy of the application for the chiefs files. If you apply, but it turns out your the village idiot, the chief would notify ATF so they will not issue a license. And given that most of the guns I have were purchased from places like Bass Pro Shops or actual gun dealers, the ATF already has my name on record as a gun owner. The OPSEC is probably more of a problem if you have just purchased two AR-15, 3 AK-47, an HK91 as well as 5000 rounds for each of them. Less of a problem if you bought 2 mausers, an Enfield, a case of Mosin Nagants and the ammo to go with them.

    In summary, if you like old guns and shooting them, get the license. It’s easy, makes purchasing some guns a phone call away, and best of all, they deliver them right to your front door. If you are very concerned about the OPSEC, you can always geocache some of them.

  5. I agree with templar knight, I would be a little concerned about the undue attention that this would bring to me and my preps. The break in OPSEC would outweigh the benefits of having the C&R permit.

  6. MOFreedom says:

    If you have EVER filled out a 4473 form (The yellow one to buy a firearm from a dealer) you are already on one if not several lists. If you feel the desire to get reasonably priced weapons (And remember that your friends may show up at your door one day and need one when the time comes) it would be a good way to get started in arms that are time-tested, proven, and ready to go again. Some of these ole battle axes are a century old and still chuggin’ along! I am a fan of the Mosin Nagant, or the 03A3 Springfield (If you have the funds). Try to get several that are all the same for spare parts……yeah, that’s it …..spare parts.

    [email protected]

    • Rev.Chance says:

      buying a gun from a dealer does put that gun on Federal paper. not every gun we own is on paper and during the great confiscation effort not all of our guns will be surrendered. I read on this blog site that storing firearms in multiple locations is good OPSEC. Surrender the “decoy guns”

  7. Lint Picker (Northern California) says:

    This is a great idea if you live in a state that is still somewhat free. In the socialist state of California, a license like that would probably bring the wrath of Jerry Brown (governor) down on a person.

    I wonder what are the insurance and liability factors to be considered for a C&R license? Is a special rider needed for the guns themselves and extra liability insurance needed in case some teenaged junkie breaks in and steals one?

    This is a great idea for some locations, just not mine. But that’s nothing new, I’m sorry to say. This state is not part of America, we are back to being a separate country with intrusive laws that do nothing but make life difficult.

    Thank you for the intereting article, Jean. I’m happy to know some people can still get guns at good prices. I only wish I were one of them.

    • Other Californians are able to obtain guns at good prices, I have many & compared prices to other states and feel I am not overpaying. The 10 day waiting period is a pain but it’s only 10 days.

      There are plenty of people I know that have private licenses to buy and sell, you just need to go through the proper channels which, includes the ATF.

      As far as freedom here, the last time I checked California was still a part of the USA. It may be broke but, what state isn’t?

      The insurance question is a no brainer – better get the rider because if anything happens – the poopy will rain down hard & any coverage will be void without proper notice & or disclosure to the insurance company.

      Some like to complain about it here but remain resident – kind of a paradox, wouldn’t you all agree?

      Once in a while it’s good to go to the dryer and clean out the lint trap so it will operate better ….

      • Jason said “The 10 day waiting period is a pain but it’s only 10 days.”

        That’s funny. It’s also what they said about the 24 hour waiting period, the 3 day waiting period, and what you’ll probably say about the 30 day waiting period, and eventually the banning of all new sales, and then the confiscation of all weapons. I guess you also supported the ‘reasonable’ banning of all mail-order ammo in California?

        I bought a pistol from a FFL dealer a couple months ago and walked out with it in 15 minutes. I legally carry a pistol (with a 15 round magazine), 2 knifes, and pepper spray all day every day. None of my weapons have ever been registered with any city or state. California is only free in comparison to Chicago or DC. You are like a frog in a slowly warming pot, not even knowing that you’re about to be boiled.

        • OhioPrepper says:

          You stated, “and then the confiscation of all weapons”. This will not happen initially. Initially they’ll just ban and confiscate those EVIL {insert a type of evil weapon here} weapons, and since I don’t own any of THEM, it’s OK.
          Remember Ben Franklin’s thoughts on the subject. “Those who desire to give up freedom in order to gain security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”

          • Rev.Chance says:

            Thomas Jefferson stated about the Second amendment to the Constitution of the United (at the moment) States of America. “You do not know you need it until they come to take it away”
            And Ben Franklin’s thoughts on the subject resonate a whole truth. Mankind’s freedom was given by God, and our right to defend that freedom is our responsibilty.
            A deaf government shall not take responsibility for me or my creations. I am not an ignorant animal. The Fed response to Hurricane Katrina took away a so called “free people’s” right and responsibilty for their own safety and security. If the way a V.A. Hospital is operated is any indication of (we know it is) how big brother will take care of us then NO THANK YOU!
            By the way… I love Ohio. Half of my family is from there. As for Califorinia… I really pray for you folks. Please move East!!!

        • Jack,

          My point was:

          A. It is nothing that is within my control, so I make the best of it. I live here, like the weather & my job and don’t sweat the rest. I vote & do my part.

          B. If someone can’t handle it here, leave and quit bitching about it. The seemingly easiest thing to do is to complain, live in fear and negativity and try to gather comrades to agree with that stupidity & laziness. That’s a shallow, pointless existence in my opinion.

          Frog in boiling water? Please make me laugh some more with your “world according to Jack” philosophy. You are completely clueless, thinking I am some sort of liberal, namby pamby fool who is waiting for the sky to fall.

          You seem to take pleasure in admitting that you enjoy traveling around daily in your premeditative, ready to murder, state of mind waiting for that somebody who had a bad day to cross that delusional line in the sand you have drawn, so you can take action and justify that all is not right in your world.

          What you don’t get is you are becoming the problem and not the solution.

          Save your comments for the Neo-Nazi’s you’ll end up bunking with in the state correctional institution.

          • Jason, You can’t quite stay on topic can you? And why do liberals and neo-cons always call everybody Nazi’s?

            The topic you started was the ‘freedom’ you find in California and that waiting periods aren’t too bad.

            Do you have a CCW from your state?
            Is your state a “must issue’ state?
            Can you legally carry a concealed weapon (not as a cop)?
            Can you legally carry a concealed knife?
            Can you legally own a normal capacity magazine (greater than 10 rounds)?
            Can you buy a pistol from a dealer and leave with it 15 minutes later?
            Do you have to register your weapons with the city/state?
            Can you legally carry pepper spray?

            If the answer to any of the above is “NO”, then you are not a ‘free’ state in comparison to most of the rest of the U.S.

            That doesn’t make me a homicidal maniac or a Nazi, it just makes you less free.

            And yes, I do think you’re a ‘namby pamby fool’, but more for your attitude than anything else.

          • Jack,

            You’re right & I’m wrong – I tearfully admit it ….

            Just try to remember to not pick up the soap when dropped otherwise, you’ll discover a whole new facet to the term “hardened criminal”

          • Rev.Chance says:

            50-1=1 God bless Texas!!!

        • Teenageprepper says:

          Amen. Most of the major coastal cities in general are lost.

          • Teenage(?)Prepper,

            Please explain what you mean & how you came up with that idea and reference any data & resources. I’m very interested in knowing.

          • Teenageprepper says:

            My family and I used to live in Seattle before we moved. Ever seen the movie “Battle in Seattle”? I don’t know about ALL the major coastal cities, I was just makeiong an assumtion baced on the one that I’ve lived in. In Seattle the majority of the people didn’t have the survival mindset. I’m sure that there will be a lot of people who will survive and even thrive but many of the people that I personally knew would probley be out rioting when the SHTF.

          • Teenage(?)Prepper,

            Got it, but don’t think Battle in Seattle reflects ALL coastal cities. However, I did see Cleavage in Cleveland and that was an interesting movie about …. sorry, you’re too young to hear such things.

            I think the only time Seattle will see a riot is if Starbucks & Boeing closes its doors.

            One last thought & mean this with the utmost sincerity, kindness & respect- your computer probably has MS Word & suggest you type your responses there – RUN SPELL CHECK – and copy & paste here. It may give you some better punch in your messages.

            Probley makeoing assumtions

  8. Why would you willing, give the guvmint yet another reason to list you. I live in a no regestration private exchange state and that is the one and only way I will buy any firearm. No matter how much I want that Taurus Judge and droul all over the counter, I will not buy it from a store or a FFL at a gun show.

    Besides that if you don’t have all the fire power you need by now, what are you thinking? We should be in maintenance mode now, not aquisition mode.


  9. I gave up my standard FFL years ago. Since then, I purchase all my guns in private sales and estate/moving auction sales and pay cash. No paperwork. I also put up “wanted to buy” ads on grocery stores bulletin boards and laundromats and in local “shopper” type want ad papers for leads. Works great.

    • OhioPrepper says:

      Yet another “duh, I should have thought of that” moment. A “wanted to buy” notice is a great idea. Thanks for sharing.

  10. Tomthetinker says:

    Hey… what the heck. Personal choice right. If it fits your level of risk, do it. There is a G… n show this Sat and Sun in Maumee, Ohio. A dealer I am not. A trader… yepper. I am all for tighting up the ‘collection’ reduction in the number of ‘safe queens’. I have two cal. of rifles I will sell off along with all the ammo….. Unless a fella stops by with an old o3 or a p17 or clean sks any S&W mod. 10… ruger speed six or sp101 and any.. No. Glock or god forbid……. a slab side. But buy one from a dealer…… lemme call the devil and ask if it’s coooold down there yet. Then….. If I knew a prepper with an R & C .. well for me, that adds some salt to the eggs and changes the flavor of the deal and the preceived risk. And HEY Carl, please take no offense as none is offered! You will ‘feel’ it when you have enough Iron. And when you feel it, then you will begin to trade up and down until your collection is right and tight. If your there now…. good for you my friend. Few of us are or can be. I won’t short my other preps to do this. I also won’t turn down a good deal or trading stock when the liquid assets are available. And so ends Tom’s ramble on risk and trust….. and whats enough.

  11. Tomthetinker says:

    And did I mention that, until I own two each,… any lever action in 38/357 or 30-30 is sold…. unless somebody has John Wayned the lever until it rattles like hell.

  12. I would like to have a c& R to get cool old stuff and piss off the guncommies.I would also like to get some garrands and 45 autos.I am not to worried about being on the radar because weall are in one way or another.I accidentaly got onto the ofical kkk website a few months ago. I am probablyy on some watchlist right now. I like guns and I think a c&r would be a good idea. Steve

  13. I agree with Templar Knight. Opsec is the main reason I haven’t done a C&R. While buying private is the best way, until an FFL goes out of business and gives up his books, does your 4473 go on ‘record’-even though it’s not supposed to, we know the ATF religiously records the turned in records. Besides, any of the firearms I’ve purchased through FFL’s in the past may/have have been legally sold through private sales. Also, if you purchase any kind of kits or accessories, the ATF has been known to aquire customer lists and intimidate customers under color of law into giving up kits or whatever, so don’t think by just buying firearms by private sale you’ll stay off ‘the list’. It’s past time to push for complete abolishment of GCA ’68. Enough pressure and it can happen, even if it starts with a few States that have the nads to exercise their 10A rights over the misapplication of the Commerce Clause.

    I’ll keep the level of of Opsec I have now (FWIW), rather than saving a few $$ for old guns/parts with a C&R and becoming a distinct pin on the map for ATF and local law enforcement.

    Bob K.

  14. The BATFE’s web site has a list of all 60,000+ FFL holders in this country. After downloading it, I found that C&R FFLs are *not* included in the list. I guess that shows you how much attention the BATFE pays to collectors of old guns.

    If you are into collecting the neat old stuff, then a C&R FFL is a good idea. If you’re putting together a basic battery or a few guns to weather the reset, then maybe not so cost/effort effective. As far as confiscation goes, there are 60,000 FFLs in front of you. When they start going after the SOTs and dealers, then you might want to start thinking about contingency plans. Personally, I think that if a C&R FFL holder doesn’t do anything totally stupid that calls attention to themselves, then the risk of problems is minimal. With that said, remember that gun collector *does not equal* survivalist. When I take a look at all the preparedness-type stuff I’ve invested in over the years, firearms is but a fraction of the overall picture.

    • Tomthetinker says:

      Your last line is the most important of all of them in the reply section on this post. Compared to everything else I’ve ‘put up’ over the years, guns and ammor are… a fraction. The cost…. thats something else we all know. I will be able to nearly double my dry storage with the sale of one rifle and it’s ammo. If I really get lucky I can finish my food and water preps totally by mid Feb.

    • Rev.Chance says:

      Firearms come by the way usually and I agree that prepping is far more encompassing than just guns. Most of our expense has been non-perishable food, water purification and shelter/comfort after a natural disater. Guns are not neccesarily manufactured in a plant with indentifying markers. People still make functional cannons in their backyard.
      The Batfe cannot possibly regulate everything.

      • Lint Picker (Northern California) says:

        The BATF can regulate everything. However, it cannot ENFORCE every regulation.

  15. I’ve had my C&R for a couple of years, and yes, you self-identify as a gun owner when you apply. But if you’ve ever bought from an FFL, joined the NRA, or gotten a hunting license, you’re already on someone’s list.

    The main benefit to me has been the cost savings on firearms, accessories, and ammunition. A 91/30 at a gun store runs between $120 and $140. If you order directly from one of the importers using a C&R license, the cost is going to be between $70 and $90, depending on whether or not you ask for a ‘hand-picked’ rifle. Ammunition is also considerably cheaper when bought in bulk from these dealers. In addition, as was noted before, a lot of shooting/sporting goods stores, such as Midway USA, offer their dealer prices to C&R holders.

    If you’re interested in getting firearms or ammunition from the CMP, a C&R license is one of the things you can use to show eligibility.

    If you’re looking to own several inexpensive, reliable firearms and the ammunition to both practice with and squirrel away, then a C&R is a good choice.

  16. For me, I don’t see the value of the C&R license unless your plans involve a very large stockpile of firearms. The milsurp firearms I have bought were still quite affordable without a C&R, and I’d rather have a mix of some milsurp and other firearms that are better suited for the hunting in my neck of the woods (i.e., small game hunting). I’m not preparing to supply my own personal infantry division, just enough firearms (with a few back-ups) to hunt and defend myself, if needed. Plus, for me a C&R would only encourage me to buy more firearms than I really need. I can easily convince myself I need “just one more” or “it’s a good investment”. I now have a “food first” mantra just to keep myself in check.

  17. I looked at this before and if I am correct in my reading, when you let the license go, you have to surrender your books(record of everything you have under the c&r) to ATF. That being said, they would know everything you had at least, waht you had bought under c&r. In my state, you can buy and sale privately, that being said, I would not trade the privacy for the conveinience. I will just keep it to myself.

  18. This is for Lint Picker. Thanks for the feedback, and I know you’re concerned about Governor Brown, but as far as I know federal law supersedes state law, and I don’t believe C and R licenses are banned by the state of california so I think you should be able to apply get one. Remember, you’re applying to the ATF directly and as long as you don’t have a criminal background, you should be fine. As for being tracked, I have a feeling that if you have a cell phone, much less have purchased a gun at a gun show, you are on somone’s list somewhere. I can tell you that if the atf wants to find you, they can. They’ve certainly contacted me out of the blue. My advice is this: Don’t get in trouble, keep a low profile, and you’ll be among the last they search. As long you keep an updated log book saying where you got the gun (distributor or private person) and who you logged it out to, you should be fine. If you’re still too paranoid to do it, then I recommend buying all your guns through friends and family. Otherwise, I agree with Ticom, “Personally, I think that if a C&R FFL holder doesn’t do anything totally stupid that calls attention to themselves, then the risk of problems is minimal. With that said, remember that gun collector *does not equal* survivalist.” I still think that you can get some good guns for the money, you will be able to buy guns out of state (try doing that and see if you bring up red flags at ffl dealerships), and slowly build up some weapons that might help you out when the chips are down.

    • templar knight says:

      Jean, I wouldn’t be worried about the ATF during a period of unrest/disaster/rioting. It would be local law enforcement that would be the concern, as was the case in the Katrina fiasco. A corrupt mayor or sheriff, given the right circumstances, would be the nightmare I envision. It’s very easy to justify the confiscation of weapons that might just fall into the wrong hands in an emergency, and the first place these people will come are on the list of gun dealers that are kept in the files of local law enforcement. And they might just search the premises and find your supplies, too. What they might do with your preps is anyone’s guess, but I have an educated one. At the very least they would note what you have stored for future use.

      That piece of paper you send to local law enforcement indentifying yourself as a gun dealer will put you on the map. Yes, you might be on some obscure list if you buy a firearm from your local sporting goods or gun show, or if you have a cellphone, but you aren’t identified as a possible source of mulitple firearms for sale. For the few dollars one would save on a weapon I don’t see the need to compromise OPSEC. That’s just me, but I don’t buy guns from sporting goods stores, either. And perhaps I’m too careful, but I would rather err on the side of caution.

    • Lint Picker (Northern California) says:

      Jean, thanks for the reply. I get the feeling you’re trying to sell me a used car. Sorry, but I’m not buying. Additionally, implying that I’m paranoid is not conducive to winning over a new convert.

      To give you the benefit of the doubt, perhaps you were trying to put my mind at ease. If that was your reason for the reply to my comment, then I thank you.

      If C&R works for everybody else in the entire country – great. If I am the only one who doesn’t want to go that route, shouldn’t that be my choice? That’s my choice and I feel no need to give details. It’s not personal, Jean, I seldom feel any need to divulge the details of my life. A few weeks ago, somebody here wanted to know where in Northern California I live. I explained to him that I would not give details. It’s not personal. Retaining some degree of privacy (as much as that is even possible these days) is smart IMHO.

      • Rev.Chance says:

        ps. I really dig your privacy attitude. Nobody needs to know where we live. I just blog to share ideas. When the time comes we may unite but for now just keep on prepping and getting information. Take care and move East!

        • Lint Picker (Northern California) says:

          Can’t afford to move. The value of my house dropped by 0ver $40,000. in 30 days. That’s right, 40 grand in a single month. Even if I could find a buyer, the amount I made on the sale wouldn’t get me anything except borderland in AZ or swampland in FL. I’ll make my “stand” here, in my native state.

          • Navel Commander,

            $40,000 drop in value in 30 days? Absolutely impossible. I am a valuation expert for the past 25 years & it is an overly well proven fact that real estate trends do not move that quickly – not even during the Great Depression – I have tracked & charted every downward cycle since 1920.

            To be very conservative, if your home was worth $400K and it dropped $40K in one month, extrapolated would be 120% annual drop. Then based upon what you just said about how much you would net on the sale of your free & clear home, that percentage gets so high it’s a joke.

            I really wish people would quit making things up to create paranoia or instill fear. Survival 101, lesson 1 – fear & paranoia are the single biggest enemies to survival, exceeding the lack of water & food.

            If you are comfortable & going to stay in California, fine – just don’t bitch about it or make up stories about how bad it is in the effort to drag others down. There are 10’s of millions here that still think it is a pretty decent place to live.

            It’s really ok to be happy where you are ~

    • Rev.Chance says:

      Federal law is. States can pass more stringent laws than the fed.
      California is a really scary place that I will never visit. I’ll pray for you and please move East.

  19. C & R guns are excellent in my opinion. I own (2) CZ-52s and (1) CZ-82. So far, they have been very accurate and have never had an FTE. My only complaint on the 52s is that if you have a round chambered and decocked, you will have to cock the hammer to start shooting. It is not DA. One other minor issue is the magazine release is on the bottom of the grip. They are accurate and shoot a flame out about a foot. They are the same rounds they used in their sub-machine guns. For the little money spent, they are excellent.

  20. I can understand if you don’t want to get a C and R license- I have a Concealed Carry Permit and I use that just as much or more than my C and R. I have found the C and R to be most beneficial when I buy guns out of state. For example, I was a big gun show in MD with some friends and they were stunned to find out that having a Concealed Carry Permit from our state (not MD) would not permit them to buy a certain gun. Fortunately, it happened to be a C and R gun and I had a copy of my C and R license to purchase the gun. Yes, I’m on a list and I ‘m sure some Sheriff could come in (as well as the ATF) and confiscate my guns. Perhaps. I actually think what will happen is that when things break down (like your Katrina scenario) the police will be more than busy just staying alive. Still, I’m not a salesman for the ATF nor do I work for J and G or any of those distributors. I think it’s an option worth considering but if you think the way you get your guns (through friends, family or want ads) works for you, fine. I’ve found the C and R works for me and that’s why I suggested writing the article about it. That’s all. It’s a shame that such a nice blog site can get into name calling (but that’s the nature of the game with blogs). I think we’re all in the same boat in one way or the other (otherwise why are we even paying attention to this blog?) and let’s just choose to disagree if we disagree. I think most of the comments have been helpful and I appreciate the feedback I’ve received. Take care.

    • templar knight says:

      Jean, I want you to know you wrote a fantastic post, and I in no way criticized you personally, or I hope I didn’t come across that way. I was just answering the question in your post, “…but is it a good idea from a survival perspective”.

      I don’t think it is for me, but it may very well work for other people, and it seems to work for you very well. The enjoyment you receive outweighs whatever security problems the C&R license poses. And that’s the way life is, we all take chances.

      I just don’t want you to get discouraged by what you might perceive as criticism from me. I certainly didn’t want to come across that way. You wrote an excellent post, and I hope you continue to write here. I enjoyed the discussion. Thanks.

      • Lint Picker (Northern California) says:

        Ditto to what templar knight wrote.

        I had never considered a C&R prior to this post, so it was interesting to contemplate. Thanks for the thought-provoking topic, Jean.

  21. Rev.Chance says:

    My Wife has a concealed carry permit, I do not. She is on the radar, I am not. She has a job that is more likely that she will be robbed, I do not. As for stockpiling ammo, we agree that it is better than money. Ammo is useless without a “distribution instrument” (Gun) and an unloaded gun,(distribution system) is more dangerous than a nuclear weapon. As an ordained minister and Christian, I understand that people are not perfect. Law enforcement officers do not differ from the rest of us except that they have the resources and sometimes misguided reasons to attack the average law abiding citizen in the name of “security” for the community. Sting operations are a precedent. Randy Weaver refused to aid law enforcement in spying on a supremicist group so was subsequently “set up” for a single firearms violation. The end result cost the lives of his son and wife and a payout by the Federal Government exceeding 3 million dollars (at taxpayers expense). People are not perfect, however I certainly do not advocate sharing information with a misguided and out of “checks and balances” government that pays law enforcement officers that do not question actions and decisions that clearly violate my Constitutional rights. Are cops an enemy? Only in so much that they disregard their oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States of America.
    Sheriff Richard I. Mack has written books on this subject.
    My neighbor is as much an enemy of my wellbeing if he is aware of my situation and level of readiness. Data collection will not serve us well during times of civil disorder. Staying off the radar and low key are valuable behaviors. My God given right to survive and thrive, be self reliant and responsible for my actions cannot be dictated by imperfect people that “serve and protect”. I will serve and protect by the guidance I have learned from the Bible! The Bible has a passage where we are instructed to sell our extra garment and buy a sword. Todays swords are firearms. Let no man take away our ability to fight for what is right.
    Further suggestion… twenty two short rounds make a great barter item and do not work well in repeating .22LR firearms. Hence… It is more difficult to be attacked by someone I have bartered with.
    Further, I have noticed that 7.62×39 rounds are becoming harder to find in stock at the local sporting goods store. Is this a trend that will continue?
    Take care and keep furthering your preparations.

    • Tomthetinker says:
    • OhioPrepper says:

      Good tip on the .22 shorts. They’re pretty much relegated to revolvers and bolt action rifles.
      I think the shortage of the 7.62×39 is similar to the current shortage of freeze dried food. Limited manufacture with increased demand. Regardless of what the left wants to believe, you just can’t repeal or ignore the law of supply & demand.
      All of the preparedness blogs have seen increased activity, and many mainstream publications are now talking about the wisdom of 72-hour kits and beyond. I think many citizens are waking up to the reality that there could be bad times ahead, and are taking steps to be prepared at some level if they do. Unfortunately, there are also those who keep acting like everything will be fine, and they could be our biggest problem.

  22. Thank you Templar Knight. I appreciate the feedback. I also liked Tomthetinker’s web site suggestion for Rev Chance: They offer nice items there- I like the Roman Sword in particular- However, as I’ve mentioned before, if I wanted to spend 100 dollars, I’d get another Mosin Nagant!

  23. Teenageprepper says:

    Boy-oh-boy… I know that I’ve said it a million times before but…
    OPSEC! OPSEC! OPSEC!!!!!!!!!!

    I’ve seen it before! Remember Katrina? legally owned firearms confiscated! As I remember looting went way up but looter deaths did not, hmmm… I wonder why? I guess what I’m trying to say is that in a true TEOTAWAKI situation, where the soldiers and police officers are running from their posts because they’re concerned for THEMSELVES and THEIR families than those few who remain “loyal” to the government will be drasticly under supplied. Now they probley wont come after grandpa and his hunting shotgun and buck-shot, but they will sure as HELL come for the prepper with 20 AR-15s and enough ammo to make a third world country blush. Hopefully you can mow them down and defend your gates, but they’ll probley have armored vehicals so unless you’ve got a RPG-7 (or even better, a FGM-148 Javelin) than you’re skrewed, because if Uncle Sam’s at YOUR gates than he won’t leave untill he gets what he came for. I know this is a worst case scenario, but when you make yourself that easy to track then that’s basicly what you’re risking especially with our lifestyle.

    • MiddleageThinkingPrepper,

      “Hopefully you can mow them down and defend your gates …” Wow, I thought David Koresh never survived Waco, are you …. never mind. This reminds me of the moron that wrote about bike survival and thought “thinning the herd” was acceptable.

      I guess I’m a bit confused …. I thought this was a blog to learn about prepping & survivalism. Did you inadvertently post here instead of the Backyard Protection Militia’s blog?

      Teenage(?)Prepper, it’s posts like these that cause me to worry deeply about our video game, Internet infected youth.

      • Jason,

        I’ve been reading your comments now for several weeks and everything you say is negative or some form of attack on other readers here. No I may not agree with some of the comments posted but I don’t go attacking everyone while claiming to have been and done everything. My guess is you are an old divorced broke jerk who hates the world and your only reason for coming her is to make yourself feel superior to the rest of us. I have some advice for you get out from behind the safety of your computer and go to the nearest bar and run your mouth to the biggest meanest guy in the place.

        • Lint Picker (Northern California) says:

          Amen, Tim. There is a line in a John Wayne movie (I think it’s The Cowboys) in which he says: “A big mouth don’t make a big man.” That sure applies to our pal. Sounds like a Jared Loughner in the making, IMHO.

        • Tim,

          I deal with influence every single day – much of has been in the banking world, specifically defaults. We have entered into an economy where the defaulted loans are at astronomic levels & why? A very big contributing factor is this very vehicle – the Internet’s uncensored 24/7/365 information delivery machine & is a well proven fact that it can create trends at light speed.

          Remember the homeless guy with the golden voice?

          That was seen by 10’s of millions of people and within 24 hours, he was not only employed & off of the streets but was a celebrity. One video goes viral and voila, movement.

          Let’s bring it back to the base level here and my seemingly racy comments – examples:

          Lint Man says his home dropped $40K in one month – which is totally impossible unless a fire burned a portion of the house yet, do you realize what tone that falsehood creates to the 5,000 readers on this blog?

          If left unchecked, you will have a bare minimum of 50 people thinking it’s ok to walk from their obligation and let their home go back to the bank – OR, ten times that thinking the market is crashing.

          Bottom line with Lint Licker – he wants to justify staying put by an erroneous loss of value, thus giving him the right to piss & moan about living in this communist state called California.

          TeenPrepper writes like a man in his 30’s, which he probably is but thinks it’s ok to encourage people to barricade and “mow down as many as possible” (paraphrase) before “they” get your guns or cans of Spam. That is warped, foolish & a very poor tone to set. I used David Koresh as an example intentionally.

          Further, he defends his position from a wild imagination and extrapolates the conditions of hurricane Katrina. An extremely isolated condition and based upon YouTube footage.

          Jack speaks of his delight to carry knives, a gun & pepper spray & for what purpose, because it HIS right? He probably lives nowhere near the hood or he would have said so but blusters about his right to carry and buying a gun in 15 seconds and challenges California (me) with a bunch of idiotic questions. Now think about it – 2 knives, pepper spray & a gun as a daily carry, sounds a bit paranoid to me. However, if it is to impress women, I take it all back.

          So let’s extrapolate again – imagine some naive soul reading this & thinks it is ok to do the same and ends up killing someone or worse, ends up in the morgue themselves.

          Now imagine that was your son or daughter who read any of the above and did the worst – a bit different feeling, yea? You have no idea what they read & the power of influence. It is unchecked.

          I sit day in and day out unwinding many false beliefs that people obtained from idiotic blogs, scam artists and the rest and bring them into simple truths. I’ve spoken directly to White House Cabinet members about the implosion and the single greatest influence & THEIR ENEMY – this uncensored vehicle. Funny thing is ….. they know it & cannot control it, yet but are working on it, guaranteed.

          If you CAREFULLY read what I wrote, I do attack the individual but I clearly address the greater context and plant seeds of doubt to those actions & statements.

          I could care less what you think of me because it’s none of my business – it’s your opinion. I am broke, divorced, & a lonely porn watching man who gets his kicks creating unrest, fine if that makes you feel like you got a dig in on me so be it.

          Am I superior, no I’m just not a lazy thinker who accepts everything at face value. Unlike most here, I do not live vicariously through the computer.

          I am face to face, state my conclusions based upon years of study & walk the walk and will speak to anybody about it – I have no fear because I can back my claims and being 6′ 4″ 225 lbs raised on the streets of L.A., I can handle myself.

          Besides all of this wasted time, this blog is about survivalism & prepping – not about drops in values, pepper spray, mowing people down & the rest of the foolishness.

          The old adage about influence remains true – Believing is seeing.

          Think about it.

          • OhioPrepper says:

            “Unlike most here, I do not live vicariously through the computer.”
            So let’s just insult “everyone” while you’re at it. Kind of undercuts what was an otherwise logical argument.
            BTW, some of us carry protection because we’re not 6′ 4″ and it’s simply an insurance policy most of us never hope to cash. No matter where you live there are PROs and CONs and if the PROs outweigh the CONS, then it’s your decision where and how to live, and that should be fine with everyone.

          • Lint Picker (Northern California) says:

            “…an otherwise logical argument.” Really? Which part was logical? Calling people names is logical? Making outrageous claims is logical? Misquoting a famous expression is logical? (It’s not, as he said “Believing is seeing” the correct expression is “Seeing is believing”). LOL

            He said, “I spend day in and day out unwinding many false beliefs that people pick up from idiotic blogs, …” Yet he says he doesn’t spend all day on the internet. Hmmm, seems like a big contradiction there. And I especially enjoyed the part about talking to cabinet members. Who? Or should does he mean he’s talking to the cabinet knobs and hinges (cabinet “members?”)

            What is logical about all this? Nothing!

          • Ohio Prepper,

            You are correct & I apologize – “unlike most” was a gross generalization.

            Point 2 regarding my height, I was heading off an objection. Trust me, being raised where I was, you know which way the wind blows –

            Point 3 – I completely agree, there are Pro’s & Con’s (no offense Jack) to every area & no place is perfect which, was my point with Nose Picker – be fine with it and quit the belly aching or leave, it’s that simple.

            BTW, Ohio has never been the same since Woody Hayes died & Devo quit playing music ……

          • OhioPrepper says:

            Woody who? 🙂 Went to college during that period and if you’re a sports fan I guess it was OK. From my perspective, most common sports could go away & I wouldn’t miss them, because I have a life of my own. I’m amazed at the goings on here on OSU game days.
            Lint Picker,
            Maybe I’m too trusting, but I don’t assume anyone here is distorting their preps or who they talk to. As for “Believing is seeing”, it is another common phrase” mostly use to describe people who have and agenda and are so myopic that they refuse to believe reality. IMHO the current administration and the previous congress (the jury is out on the current one) fall into that phrase. Tax everything that isn’t nailed down, take over whole industries, and “believe” that it will somehow drive the economy and bring down unemployment. Then when companies don’t hire back people, and continue layoffs you “see” that the companies are just evil SOBs hoarding their cash. The opposite phrase, “Seeing is believing”, would cause someone in this instance to change their strategy, not play the blame game.

      • Teenageprepper says:

        Please excuse me. It was a worst case scenario takeing place in the middle of a TEOTWAWKI situation. But your comment on my “middle-age thinking” got me wondering. If social order breaks down and National Gaurd is executeing people in the streets how would YOU react?

        They’re storming your house intending solely to take ALL of your preps and kill you and your family if you get in the way? Without your food and water and with either no way or your months away from getting more… you’ll die of starvation or dehidration, probley the latter. Essentially they’re killing you either way.

        Would you let them walk in without lifting a finger? Or would you help them carry your food stores and your ammunition out of your house? Your not going to try to stop them are you? Because that would remind us all of “the moron that wrote about bike survival and thought “thinning the herd” was acceptable” By trying to protect what I worked long and hard for I’m
        “thinning the herd”?

        So please tell me, so that I can learn from someone who isn’t “addicted” to the internet or video games, what would YOU have me do?

        • Paragraph 1 answer – Executing people in the streets? Ah … how does anyone with a rational mind respond to that?

          Paragraph 2 comment – Storming my house, carrying my food stores & taking my women into slavery? See below –

          Paragraph 3 – protect what I worked long and hard for? How much could you have possibly accumulated in your teen years?

          Paragraph 4 – So please tell me, so that I can learn from someone who isn’t “addicted” to the internet or video games, what would YOU have me do?

          Seek help while you have time.

          • OhioPrepper says:

            +2 🙂

          • OhioPrepper,

            Wasn’t much of a sports fan but I loved controversial figures who travel to the beat of their own drum – what a surprise, eh?

          • Teenageprepper says:

            I was poseing my question from your viewpoint, “what would *you* do”, also you’ve decided not to answer my question, you have decided to make light of my arguments. And so what if I write like a man in my thirtys? (merely an example) If you write like a teenager does that make you one? Consider that mabey I am educated. I don’t throw out “dudes” and “bros” because it would make me look like an idiot in front of the readers of this blog. You talk about the power of influence. Well aparently I’ve influenced you into thinking that I’m 14 years older than I am. Without even trying. I did not insult you I merely asked your opinion. If my request seemed like I was angry thats because I was, you accused me of being a paranoid freak, that I wanted to kill innocent people and that I am clinicly dependent on my computer. I’ll admit that I spend alot of time on my PC but I am in no way “infected”. I do wish to know what you would do when presented with my hypothetical. Don’t answer with the intent of makeing fun of me.

          • First off, spending time in front of any PC is a waste, get a Mac.

            Next, what would I do if that absolutely impossible situation was to happen … in my state, in my area, in my town, in my neighborhood, on my street & at my residence?

            I’d been long gone, leaving my teenagers behind to mow down the storm troopers, because my finger is on the pulse and watch plus, I don’t need the extra mouths to feed. That was a joke for ….. you know who you are.

  24. SrvivlSally says:

    If the government decides to confiscate owner’s guns across this nation then those that are not registered will have nothing to worry about. As far as being able to use your gun at that time then you will have to make sure that you are not shooting someone, an animal or even a target, to stay in practice, within earshot of another human being. On the brighter side of the types of guns you are talking about, if the government does not confiscate anything, then having them to trade or barter with might be ideal or they may even provide a little something to eat not to mention that you would have plenty of ammo to protect yourself if need be.

  25. MOPrepper says:

    Lots of talk in here about being “on the list”.

    If you have ever purchased ANY ammo from a retail store, and did NOT pay cash for it, you are on the list already.

    Keep in mind that there’s not really any “list”.
    What it is in reality is a bunch of records stored in a database , either on Federal computers or on a bunch of retail store computers (which the Feds can requisition without question).

    I can tell you what really irks me about Katrina more than how they went around collecting firearms, but how the people willingly gave them up.

  26. Appreciate the feedback Lint Picker.

  27. I bought a CZ-82 when they first arrived in the US, and were quite a bit more expensive then they are going for now a days. I wanted one, because my first gun was a IJ-70 Makarov that has alwyays been wonderfully reliable and surprisingly accurate. I wanted the gun that was reputed to be as reliable as a Makarov, but double stack, and no expenses spared in it’s production. When the CZ-82 arrived, it was beautiful, like new condition, didn’t look like it had been fired very much at all, and it had an excellent trigger. I was intrigued by this most expensively build Warsaw Pact pistol, and I really liked it, until I brought it to the range.

    It would not extract rounds, ever. If you had a magazine inserted and you chambered a round, and tried to fire it, it would fire, but it wouldn’t extract. It would not extract chambered rounds MANUALLY. I tried a half dozen different kinds of Makarov ammo that I have collected over the years, Chicom bronze colored cases, Silver Bear, Brown Bear, Tula Lacquer coated, Wolf Poly coated, and even some left over Cor-Bons that I had bought in the early 2000’s, none of them would extract. The ejector looked fine, so I took out the extractor, and it looked like only a tiny bur remained from whatever had broken off. This would explain why the gun looked so new.

    I bought two new extractors and two new recoil springs from CZ-USA (which was a nightmare, since their customer service sucks) and before I bought the extractors, I asked if they were caliber specific, and they said “No.” Well, I got two new extractors in the mail, and not only did they look like they were hand ground on a belt sander, neither of them looked remotely similar. They didn’t even look like they were made out of the same material. The worst part was, they both looked just like that one I had pulled out, with a tiny, uneven bur where the claw of the extractor should be. No combination of extractors, ejectors, or ammo was able to make that gun fire three times in a row without a malfunction.

    So, I called CZ-USA again. They told me they would fix it, but I’d have to pay for it. It’s not their fault that their parts don’t work, etc. I said the only thing they could do that I didn’t try would be to change out the slide, they said they would do that, if I would pay for a new slide. I sold the gun at a gunshow to a guy who was convinced he could fix it. I will never buy another CZ pistol.

  28. Our Man Lint:

    I said – THINK ABOUT IT …. believing is seeing.

    Many get beliefs so strong they actually begin to see it. I know the opposite version Mr. Potatoe Head (misspelling dedicated to Dan Quayle) …. mine deals with the power of influence.

    Many months back a fellow named Ahab was talking about how TS was HingTF in his neck of the woods & was running on about how bad things were getting.

    He went on to say that he drove into a neighborhood and noticed EVERYBODY was looking at him in distrust as he drove through. He believed events were happening and then saw it. That is one small example.

    How about someone who has a severe pain in their backside (nothing personal), does some uneducated Internet research and then is 100% convinced it is cancer. The symptoms grow & ultimately goes to the Dr. to discover it was severe constipation caused by a navel lint build up.

    This is quite common – believing first …. again, think about it – in fact you fully believed your property value dropped 40K in a month – illogical, totally impossible but true for you.

    Next, Internet junkie …. So imagine if it is all possible, to have DONE the research & have an assistant monitoring things and passing them to you as needed. Been doing that for years. Doctors do it, Lawyers do it etc.

    What about … Logic vs name calling? If the name fits, it’s logical or if the name is clever or provides me with a chuckle, it’s logical … to me.

    Your argument should have addressed relevance, that’s logical. Make sense?

    Now the big challenge …. The man I spoke to (not Jason) was John D. Macomber & was in Geo Bush Sr’s administration – want his direct line number now?

    What isn’t logical is spending time on these inane discussions that have nothing with survivalism but, is amazing to me how people get distracted & entrenched in points of view that don’t fit.

    So sit back with your EDC, BOB, GOOD, GHK and the rest of the alphabet, bitch about Jerry Brown & the homeless guy who asked you for some kindness, or how it takes a month of Sundays to buy a BB gun from WalMart now, stare at the ceiling waiting for the sky fall because it will at some point – it’s only logical …. or gravity.

  29. This comment above was to follow Lint Pickier’s comment posted 01/28 @ 11:42 pm, for those who are scoring.

  30. OneBigElf says:

    I hate to break it to the people worried about OPSEC, but if you’ve purchase firearms from any dealer, purchased ammunition, purchased tactical accessories, freeze-dried foods, or any of hundreds of survival preps either mail-order, online or with a credit card, if you belong to firearms or survivalist forums or are politically active in any of hundreds of conservative organizations you might as well go ahead and assume that you are already on more lists than eggs and milk.

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