Guest Post by Anonymous
It’s a question many of us must ask ourselves, and while some have stocked more than others, it’s impossible for any of us to know, definitively, how many days, weeks, or months our ammunition will last. That can be unsettling.
There are many viable options for reusing, manufacturing, and otherwise prolonging your supply of ammunition, but I’d like you to consider another, often-overlooked option among them. It’s one of the oldest, most reliable weapons mankind has ever invented: The sword.
Now, I’m not suggesting you shed your munitions in favor of some Highlander-esque fantasy (just the sight of a gun is a deterrent to a hostile target). Instead, consider the premium that will be placed on ammunition after the collapse, and you start to see the appeal of the sword for certain situations.
For example, imagine a friendly neighbor who, today, would never dream of speaking ill of you, let alone harm you. Post-TEOTWAWKI, the same person, having never prepared tomorrow’s grocery list, let alone their own stockpiles of food and water, will suddenly become a real threat. So will several others.
But does each challenge for your resources require the use of a firearm to defend? Surely not. The sword (or blade) is perfectly suited for protecting yourself from the lesser threats you may encounter on a day-to-day basis: The unarmed, the physically weak, and the mentally unprepared.
Speaking of mental preparation, it’s also useful to spend some time considering your own abilities, strengths, and weaknesses for defending yourself after the collapse.
It’s wise to stockpile firearms, ammunition, and whatever other weaponry you choose, but when it comes time to use them, what is your plan? When will you feel comfortable defending yourself with a gun?
When will you feel comfortable defending yourself with a sword, hatchet, bow, or your bare hands?
Survival is about preparing both your physical assets and your mental capacity to use them. To demonstrate this, here is a flowchart I’ve prepared for myself to consider the use of each type of weapon:
If ever I find myself in that unfortunate situation, this preparation will help me make a better decision in the heat of the moment about whether to use up precious ammunition or repeal the threat with fewer resources.
Click To View Larger
{ 92 comments }
Learning bare hand combat and combat with improvised weapons is an important step in defending yourself, and given no other choice I would like to be able to use those weapons effectively, however:
In an encounter with another human being I will always present a firearm.
A) If I don’t see a weapon on their person, that doesn’t mean they’re not carrying concealed.
B) Just because they appear weak, doesn’t mean they are. Plenty of Chuck Norris’s in disguise out there.
IF this situation ever occured, ammunition would be precious, but life is more precious, don’t take chances.
I have to agree, in fact I have a half dozen myself. As well as scy, bo, numchuks, broken staff, manriki… Now having decided you need a blade, lets run down to the village swordsmith and have him measure you for the right grip, and balance, and length. No swordsmith, don’t live in a village? Lets go to the internet, whoa what a selection which one? A good blade strong enough to take the rigors of battle, flexable enough not to shatter, hard enough to take an edge, is more than a new car! So what else is there, stainless steel. Low maintenance, looks good, cheap. Will nick then break on the first armour it meets. High carbon steel, some can be had, not that expensive, just oil regularly, and get one with a full tang. That being said most of mine are stainless, and the balance don’t suit me, but at least I got started on my back up. Now where did I leave that atlatl glue.
Interesting concept. Couple of things to think about: A) A GOOD sword costs several hundred dollars and up. B) It takes awhile to become proficient in some of the basic moves (building strength in the shoulders/arms, developing muscle memory, etc). C) Most swords are single use tools, unlike an axe or a machete. D) Edged weapons of any type commit you to one-on-one combat until the threat is neutralized, which could take a few seconds, and if there are two or three guys after you… E). The length of the weapon and its accessories (belt, scabbard,etc) can interfere with other gear you might have on. Even “Big Army” realized this in WW2, which is why they cut down the issue Bayonet from 16″ to 10″, and the current issue bayonets are the length of fighting knives or Bowies.
Of course, this presumes that ALL ammunition has run out, or EVERY firearm in the U.S. has been taken away by the Government and the ordinary citizen is now disarmed. But even in Mad Max2, there suddenly appeared some firearms. But here in the U.S., I would think that some Flintlocks would come out, and if they still had a bayonet lug on them, they might prove to be more useful.
But if someone handed me $800 bucks and said buy a sword, I’d take the money and purchase a good used Moisen-Nagant, a Spam can of ammo, a 12 Gauge pump w/50 rounds of buck/slugs and a semi-auto 22 w/a few bricks and still have some change to get cleaning gear. But if some one handed me $50, then I’d buy an axe and a machete. Of course YMMV. Just my 2 cents, of course.
Ohh and good guest post Anon.
How much ammo can you carry? How many guns can you carry? How many spare parts and mags do you need ? These can be very overwhelming. It’s hard enough to put supplies away without looking paranoid. I’ve gotten little jabs from family who just keep buying firearms instead of putting any food or water back in case of s i t f or any other situation. This is all just so overwhelming that I’m lost. Man talk about whineing. One of those days.
Excellent graphic (but clearly too much time on your hands).
If you have an immunity to the flu that kills off 99% of the human population: about 60 years. LOL.
Anecdotally, it is my understanding that WW2 vintage ammo still fires well if it was stored properly and was good quality in the first place.
But what is the upper limit?
I think the bow / arrow will become a weapon of choice for hunting. I just learned of the sling bow this morning – pretty cool! Dave Canturbury (Dual Survival TV show) demonstrates it on this link.
http://tinyurl.com/2uzpgdq
Pretty slick outfit.
For close quarters, a sword or pike / spear (more distance from adversary) would do. Machete for those without the muscle strength needed for sword work.
Totally armchair theory here, I have no experience with sword fighting / spear throwing.
Ammunition will become very valuable as supplies run low – conservation will become a rule. Nothing like a sawn off shotgun to make a person unpopular at close distances.
Actually, J.R., there may be a way to have a practical compromise. Many firearms come with bayonet lugs attached, or could be placed on Picatinny rails for the AR folks. One still has a fighting/utility knife, yet, if need be, a back up spear in case of ammo depletion or jams/breakage. I personally prefer a bladed design rather than the triangular thrusting type, just for more general purpose field use. Food for thought.
Mr. Bubblehead,
I completely agree. if you own a rifle set up for a bayonet by all means you should have one. Doesn’t take much training to stick somebody. useful for lots of chores.
That is an excellet point Bubblehead Les, many of those WWII bolt guns already have bayonets as an optional accessory that can be purchased easily. I had not considered that one – great idea!
Pssst: wanna learn to fight with a sword?
Join the SCA–
http://www.sca.org/
http://www.scatoday.net/
The world’s largest mideval reinacting group.
Pennsic War is coming up later this month:
http://www.pennsicwar.org/penn39/
I like sword and shield, but my prefered weapon of choice is the SPEAR.
I also dig spears, Jim G. The long, sharp, pointy stick is the weapon which made Humans the dominant species on Earth. Imagine the courage our ancient ancestors must have had to take on a Bergman’s Bear or a Sabre Tooth Tiger with a spear. All later weapons were niche weapons, except firearms, which are still new.
It had always been a factor in the back of my mind that in the event of a Zombie Appocalypse that the ammunition would run out right when you really need it, and a proper melee weapon would be an excellent choice for long term survival in a hostile environment. Plus, if there’s a better non-lethal device than a sword, I’ve yet to see it. Sometimes, giving a villian a little poke would be enough to ensure compliance without wasting precious reserves of ammo, which for many would be irreplaceable. I feel that pulling a sword on someone has certainly got to be intimidating in a very primal sort of way. There’s certainly no harm in having a sword AND a pistol or long gun.
I took the opportunity to buy a Cold Steel 1917 Cutlass (which is actually a 1941 Dutch Klewang Cutlass style) for this purpose. Hard to beat Blued Carbon Steel for durability. A Cutlass is short enough to be used in confined spaces, like inside a building, and longer than a knife or a Machette. It cuts through plants and branches with aplomb, although you do need to get a little more swing, since it doesn’t have the mass of a Machette. After much internet shopping, I found one for a very low price from a retail liquidator, about half of MSRP, and I bought it.
As for the blade itself, it wass hand made in India, and it shows. The quality is somewhat low, but not terrible. The blood groove looks like it’s ground in with hand tools, and is the most lamentably cheap looking part of the whole thing. It definitely needs some polishing in certain areas, dehoning on the hilt, dull the blade half way up (so you can actually fight with it), and minor adjusting of the grips, but it is serviceable, and I intend to abuse it, not display it.
I also took the opportunity to buy the Cold Steel DVD set “Fighting with Cutlass and Sabre”, which I also found on the internet for about 94% off. It was so low priced, I was certain it was a scam, but I definitely got it, and it is certainly more valueable than the Cutlass.
Interesting idea. I hate to be contrary, but I question the practicality of a sword versus other options.
1. Swords are expensive. As mentioned previously, one could buy a lot of ammo for the price of a half decent sword.
2. Swords have limited utility in our modern world. In fact, swords have become increasingly obsolete for several centuries. An 18th century musket will upstage the best sword. Until ALL ammo is expended, a sword will be a distant second in any armed conflict. Realistically, if you find yourself in combat multiple times in a TEOTWAWKI setting, you’re unlikely to survive long enough to fire 1,000 rounds.
3. A sword will weigh you down and get in the way. Swords are long and unwieldy. If you are anywhere where you might need a sword, you will probably need to carry a gun as well. The sword adds to your burden and has limited usefulness.
4. Swords require a great deal of skill and strength. While almost any octagenarian can defend themselves with a gun, swords require a great deal of physical strength to control effectively. Think you need a lot of training to fire your gun accurately? A sword requires even more training and practice to effectively master. Perhaps most of all, a conflict involving a sword will be a bloody, violent affair, much more than a gun fight. You will need exceptional fortitude to be mentally and emotionally capable of hacking someone to death with a sword.
In short, due to its high cost, limited range and utility and high strength and training requirements, a sword is unlikely to be a good backup weapon. In any situation where the use of a sword would be warranted (one or two unarmed opponents), the mere presence of a gun should suffice. If your opponent is so determined that the gun doesn’t scare them off, then they might be determined enough to overwhelm you and your sword (think violent drug addict overwhelming a half dozen cops). In such a case, a well placed round would be a round well spent. In situations where the use of a sword would not be warranted, it would only get in the way and possibly slow you down.
Better options for a backup weapon would be a fighting knife or bayonet (multiple uses, small and unobtrusive, yet still a credible threat), a spear (can be fashioned by hand and has a larger range than a sword), or a bow and arrow (useful for hunting, nearly silent, and arrows are reusable and can even be made by hand with a little skill).
A Tomahawk is a much better weapon, IMHO. With a survivalists mindset, the first thing to think of is Versatility. If you can get one object to do more than one thing, you’re ahead of the game. Tomahawks are lightweight, short, and can be used in several different scenarios.
Don’t get me wrong, though. I love swords… they’re limited by their versatility and weight, though.
Ahhh… swords were only SLIGHTLY the reason the Japanese got their asses HANDED to them by Europeons who came over and basically ran that place for years. and then the Japanese invented TEPPO JUTSU, namely MUSKETRY, or the handing off of the BUSHIDO aspects of their society for guns.
swords, knives, machete’s.. never needed reloading, but then again, I’ll quote Han Solo ”
Luke: You don’t believe in the Force, do you?
Han Solo: Kid, I’ve flown from one side of this galaxy to the other, and I’ve seen a lot of strange stuff, but I’ve never seen *anything* to make me believe that there’s one all-powerful Force controlling everything. ‘Cause no mystical energy field controls *my* destiny. It’s all a lot of simple tricks and nonsense.”
and that’s what I think of a weapon solution, inanswer to more capable and far reaching systems, an Onager or ballista is damn formitable. and you can make your own bolts, and cap them with metal. they out penetrate most swords firearms and even SPEARS.
YRMV…gimme a gun and I’ll make my own ammo supply last long enough to survive long enough.
nature223
“Hokey Religions and ancient weapons are no match for a blaster by your side.”
-Han Solo
Sorry anonynous, but I am not using a sword. If I wanted to save ammo, I’d use a bow & arrow. With bow & arrow I wouldn’t have to get close to the enemy. The closer you get to somebody, the worse the odds become for your own safety. If the enemy is unarmed, physically weak, or mentally unprepared (whatever that means) then I see no need for mortal combat. Just yell BOO at the person and he’ll run away with his tail between his legs. I mean, seriously, who needs to attack somebody who is unarmed? I’d rather scare them away than have to kill or maim somebody. If they want what I’ve got but didn’t bring a weapon in order to get it, then they are too dumb to know how to survive.
If all I had was a bladed weapon, I’d choose a machete over a sword any day. They are much easier to manuever, better grip, and they can do a lot of damage with a single blow, no matter where you hit the person’s body. A sword is just as likely to cut the swordsman as the enemy unless the swordsman is really experienced.
Nope, I just don’t see myself using a sword….ever. But whatever works for you, that’s the key to survival — finding out what works for you and honing those skills.
Thanks for the guest editorial. rat.
Bow and arrow sound good, but what about when you shoot em all or the attackers get into your perimeter? Then what? Then a close combat weapon sound pretty good, eh sparky? And yelling BOO? Sounds like an enemy who’ll go away to maybe kill you and yours another day.
Arrows can be retrieved. and repaired if need be. If they get into my perimeter, then I’d shoot them. DUH! As far as yelling BOO, grow a sense of humor. As I already said, a machete would be my close combat weapon if I had to use a bladed waapon. I guess your reading comprehension isn’t so good, huh.
Don’t call me sparky. You may call me Skunk or Mr. Cabbage or Mr. Skunk Cabbage, but don’t call me sparky. If you do that again, I’ll be calling you tinkerbell. Got it?
PS, the anonymous person who wrote the piece about which we now comment said that an unarmed person, a physically weak person, or a mentally unprepared person could be done in with a sword. If you want to kill off that kind of person, you are no longer human…you are some kind of animal. I will try my hardest to remain human and charitable if/when TSHTF. I don’t need to kill off the weak (old, young, sick?), the unarmed (merely looking for a meal or shelter?) or the mentally unprepared (retarded, injured, confused from the chaos?). I will try to tend to their needs and make a loyal friend of them, rather than a carcass of them. Dead defenseless people don’t make somebody a hero or a smart guy — they make him a killer. That’s not sound survivalism, that’s murder. Show me a man who will kill the unarmed, the weak, the mentally challenged and I will show you a coward.
Dear Mr. Cabbage,
I haven’t written a guest article yet. Unless you are addressing another rat, I don’t know what you are talking about. I do agree with your above comments. I would rather have a wannabe ninja assassin coming at me than a pissed off skunk cabbage with twenty dollars worth of machete!
the rat
Wow, your ego is just amazing. If you think I was referring to you, you are very sadly mistaken. Sorry to disappoint you.
You don’t have to worry about a pissed off skunk cabbage coming at you with a machete – you’re the type that would merely require a BOO!
MR,
Forgot to mention that where I come from, “rat” is neither a name nor a rodent (although in your case I’m sure the two are synonymous). “Rat” means “retreat and think” as in, nice try but not viable. So please stop jumping to conclusions. You know what happens to the guy who jumps to conclusions? Sooner or later he goes splat! I’d hate to see you messing up the sidewalk here at survivalist blog.
I don’t wish this post to sound confrontational BUT! If the Rambo fantasy isn’t bad enough ( taking on Russian Attack Helicopters with a Bowie Knife) Now we are going to become ninja assassins!
This is a joke,right? what about somebody that hits you in the side of the head with a bar of soap in a sock? Or someone who blinds you with dirt thrown in your face, trips you and proceeds to monkey stomp your ass to death before you can get back on your feet?
Keep in mind, in a real conflict no one will fight fair. They will attack from behind, with the sun in your eyes, and cut your throat with a 99 cent box cutter before you can draw your over-priced sword!
We aren’t on the playground. There will be no mouthing off before the fist fight starts.No pushing and shoving and name calling. Your enemy will just jump you,without warning, from behind and try his hardest to kill you with a minimum of fuss and bother.
If you already have a background in martial arts and some experience with classic weapons, whatever turns you on,good luck.
Attention Sword Haters!
Keep in mind that you may be walking everywhere, and what is today your daily commute, might become an overnight camping trip after a collapse. The hundreds of thousands of people you might pass by at 55 MPH will suddenly be within striking distance of you every step you take, and they’re all your competitors.
I would like to note, that although a sword is somewhat awkward to carry, they aren’t heavier or more awkward than a rifle, and I know almost nobody on this blog would consider carrying a rifle an unacceptable burden.
Carrying 1000 rounds of pistol or rifle ammo, however, is an ungodly concept. I wouldn’t want to carry that much ammo into COMBAT. If you do have to bug out, you want to go light. 3 lbs for a sword (my Cutlass weighs less than 2.75 lbs with the sheath) might seem like a lot of ammo, but it’s actually about the weight of about 62 rounds of 230 grn 45 ACP, not including mags, or the holster. Or the Pistol.
As for the price, I spent $144.20 on my Cold Steel 1917 Cutlass from a company called “Fedtactical” and $10.94 on the training DVDs from a company called “Efunctional”. Hardly a price that would break the bank of even the thriftiest survivalist. Let’s say your ammo of choice costs $150 per 1000 rounds. How many years will it take you to use 1000 rounds if you are hunting with it?
Bow and Arrow advocates, I hope you know what you’re doing. A number of people have mentioned that it takes time and practice to develop the skills necessary to use a sword, well, that’s true of bows as well, and many modern bows cost significantly more than many perfectly serviceable swords, like my Cutlass.
I guess someday I may have a use for my Naval officer’s sword! Besides a dining out.
Serves you right for joining the gull dern Navy…Freakin’ Ice Cream Men! Just kidding, thanks for your service! I knew quite a few SEALs that didn’t come home.
Ha! We make the same jokes. I hate those damn white shoes…
Matt,
This is in no way disrespectful, and I don’t want you to take it that way, but modern bows are much easier to master than swords. I shoot a 70 pound bow, and have used it to kill many deer over the years, and I really didn’t spend that much time learning to shoot my bow pretty well. Not competition accurate by any means, but out to 30 yards or so I’m pretty good.
As for ammunition, I have stocked many thousands of rounds, and there is really no way I could shoot all the ammo I’ve stocked in my lifetime. I’ve stocked so much because excess ammo can be used as a force multiplier when given to people who will help with overall defense of an area. So I don’t see a time in my life when lack of ammo will be an issue.
However, as a prepper, I must be prepared for the unexpected, and have stocked several machetes. For me they serve double duty as protection and as working tool, so they seem to make more sense than swords.
Bottom line, I prefer bows and machetes to swords, but if someone wishes to become profficient with a sword, I don’t see any reason why one wouldn’t serve in the capacity intended. But I would not want to bring a sword, or a machete for that matter, to a gunfight. Remember that scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark when Indiana Jones pulled his pistol and killed the guy with the scimitar. Don’t let that happen to you, Matt.
j/k-I wish you the best in your endeavors. And hey, if its fun and you take satisfaction from it, then go ahead. Who knows where it may lead you.
I would consider a Machete to be a kind of sword, but that’s just me. A pistol wouldn’t be my primary choice for a confrontation, just as a sword wouldn’t be, but I’d rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it when the ammo runs dry.
I like bows and crossbows, but I don’t own one, and I can’t seem to justify buying one even though I like them. I’ve got too many guns which I’d rather hunt with already. But the problem with any projectile weapon is at very close ranges, hand to hand combat is a reality. A melee weapon would be essential when there’s no room to effectively use a bow or a long gun. People tend to grab pistols, which can render them inopperable, and grabing a sword is something I assume you would only try once if you were an aggressor.
I would also like to note that ammuntion might become extremely valuable, and the stockpiles we all have might be worth their weight in gold, or food, or water. This would be true of Arrowheads and shafts as well. It may be better to trade some of that ammo for essential supplies that we have exhausted, had lost, stolen, destoryed, or forgotten to acquire in the first place. In the event that 1000 rounds of ammo becomes 500, then 250, then 50, then 5 rounds, it would be nice to have melee weapons and tools like Combat Shovels, Machettes, Spears and Swords.
A machete is a tool as well as being a weapon (killing tool). There are a number of historical weapons that were very slightly modified tools. In the case of a machete, no modifications are required.
Based on the numbers available (emergency room reports, etc.). In close, a shotgun is the most efficient one shot stop weapon. Since you are not likely to be facing a Japanese (or zombie) bonzai charge, a sawed of double barrel is likely to be plenty of stopping power.
Matt:
When I go to a fight and the enemy has a stick, I take a knife.
When I go to a fight and the enemy has a knife, I take a bow & arrow.
When I go to a fight and the enemy has a bow & arrow, I take a gun.
When I go to a fight and the enemy has a gun, I take a bigger gun.
It’s a matter of superior firepower. Always try to be bigger and badder as well as smarter than your enemy.
Weapon choice should not be based on cost. How much is your life worth? I’m not trying to get on your case about this, just saying that in a post-TEOTWAWKI scenario, how much I saved on defensive weapons will be the least of my concerns.
But as I said in an earlier post, it all depends on what works for each individual. I don’t feel comfortable wielding a sword, so a sword wouldn’t be the best choice for me. For somebody else, a sword could be a good choice. Each of us has to make that decision for ourselves.
I am not advocating use of a sword alone, Skunk Cabbage. I am advocating swords as BACKUP weapons, possibly in lieu of a pistol. Many people would choose to carry a rifle or shotgun as their primary, but the weight of a pistol, sword, or any other weapon would better be served as additional ammo. That’s why not everyone in the military gets issued a pistol. As for price, I’m simply addressing the non-sensical comments made by some that swords cost more than 10,000 rounds of ammo, which is rediculous. Most .22 rifles can be had for less than even a cheap sword, especially used, and I would certainly prefer an underpowered firearm over a sword as my only weapon.
Fair enough. It’s difficult to plan what weapon any of us would carry. So many variables, so many things that will thwart our well-laid plans.
Cabbage,
I said I didn’t understand. I tried to be nice, and I even agreed with your remarks and you still persist with your belligerent judgmental attitude.
I think you want to play a game of mine is bigger than yours. No thank you. It was an honest mistake but if you want to keep mouthing off ,be my guest.
Most half way intelligent people recognize an attempt to let bygones be bygones but apparently YOU don’t qualify. Just keep believing that Boo would work. Over confidence is a great survival trait.
I’ll give you the same advice Mr. Creekmore gave me. Chances are real good we will never meet so why keep this up? Let it go.
Mohaverat,
SC has a thin skin reads in insults where none exist. Basically if you dare disagree with something he says, it’s “ridicule” and will illicit a smartass reply. I’ve observed this twice in two days now. His responses indicate insecurity, we all know the type. I suggest you tune out the static and ignore.
suburban Survivalist.
sound wisdom my friend. Thanks
the rat
OK, The thought of carrying a sword next to a handgun while carrying a rifle is comical. But that wouldn’t stop me from considering a melee’ weapon of some kind. For everyone assumes their weapon is going to work without fail and ammo being available. But what happens if that $1,000 AR pukes in a time of need or that EL Cheapo Surplus rifle has “that” one part that breaks and there is none available in your spares kit and because this is TEOTWAWKI, your parts house isn’t goin to answer the phone!
You say “Well I have more than one weapon of the same kind, in case of such a problem. OK but what happens if you have some kind of personal disaster? Like a house fire, or thieves make off with your steal your ammo, then Government goes house to house and confiscates firearms and ammo….. Whatever now what????
I was a Armed Guard here in Ohio and contrary to the general belief guards are not left on their own, and just given a Fire Arms Bearer Card. Initial training is done by active and retired cops as required by law. And they the first thing they drill in your head is if all you have is a gun(s) and your fists, you got a big problem both tactically and legally. That’s why they had baton, taser, OC spray, and hand to hand combat training. For not every situation calls or allows for the use of firearms. Most civilian gun fight take place in less than 3 feet!! Within Arms Reach. It is entirely possiable that you’ll can’t use a firearm when in a crowd. Or your house with your family, or if the bullets miss their mark and go trough the exterior walls, you could injure or kill one of your neighbours and you’ll be liable. For even if your legally allow to use deadly force, but it’s only allowed on the BG, not the innocent bystander!!! I’ve never heard of a knife going though a interior wall and a exterior wall, just to kill a man walking his dog a block away.
You got to have multiple means of defending yourself, whether its hand to hand, a ball bat, Kukri or even a shovel! For if the Sword of Damocles pays you a visit and render your firearms a “non option”, a bladed weapon most certainly a viable option, for in close quarters, like the hallways of the average house, a bow and arrow would be exercise in folly.
As for the guy High on PCP “Not feeling it”, BS! Watch the videos on Cold Steel (like the Kukuri) and how long will the strung out person live while missing a arm or a slice that almost decapitates a head in one swipe! The Soviet Spetsnaz use their shovel with devestating effect.
One says “But you have to train and practice!” OH, PLEASE!!! Do you go to the range to fire your weapon right? Your practicing and or training to keep your PARISHABLE skill sharp and you expect less in any other type of combatives??? Your not grounded in reality.
A Melee’ weapon may sound silly at first but the as you think further research and think trough possible scenarios the more make sense. Even if it’s isn’t the broad sword some make their choice.
Rifleman 336
Well said.
Rifleman 336, a possible ‘melee’ weapon you describe could be taken care of with a CS Spetnatz shovel.
http://tinyurl.com/2vwg6nk
About 18″ long, the head sharpened on 3 sides would make for a good ‘Leave me alone’ weapon, and still have a useful tool at the same time. If just for CQ, the CS Assengei short spear likewise might be useful – I’d sure hate to try and take anyone’s juju beads with anyone armed with that. :^)
http://tinyurl.com/dzdowe
Can’t have too much ammo – buying more from time to time.
A sword sounds neat and looks cool until you whack it on something hard and break it. Have a WWII Jap sword the old man took off somebody who didn’t need it anymore but I wouldn’t use it outside the house. Consider what a number of troops have been carrying for quite awhile, an 18″ Eagle Talon tactical tomahawk from RMJ Tactical (www.rmjtactical.com). While saving up for one, I have an Estwing Campers Axe with 26″ handle for $40 at Home Depot. A much lighter weight but serious alternative to an edged tool in close quarters may be escrima sticks from TAK (www.takknife.com). They come in lengths from 24″ to 30″ either solid (Bodyguard Max) or with hollow center (Bodyguard) and are made of an incredibly tough polymer. Would you use a stick or maybe a pair if you knew how much damage they can do in a matter of a seconds? Last but not least, a 20″ piece of 7/8″ inch rebar works ok as a very cheap stick and can be used as a safer strength training aide before swinging a razor sharp Estwing.
Hmm, two machetes vs. one sword, who would win?
Point beats the edge. Everytime!
Poe beat me too it. If your thinking a william wallace type blade you’re right not practable. A short Celtic or Roman Gladius style, would top my list. A bowie or a dirk come in as close seconds. As for fantasy league melee fighting the humble Sai [scy] or the manriki win. Halberd gives you the reach of a pike with the bite of a battle ax. The Tueller drill [21' rule] and the combatant inside your perimeter may limit your ability to shoot. The point that you may not wish to shoot the lame or unstable, yet still enforce your will [or won't] upon them, cold steel or bare blade at just less than waist height will impress even the most foolhardy. I have seen 10 foot tall, bullet proof, drunks blanche at the sight of a dirk near their zipper, as if that would hurt them more than the .357 The scoff swords out there are stuck thinking inside the box[er primer] Bug out maybe, bug in a big yes, and as always think trade goods.
Being a pirate re-enactor, I have only one thing to say… never bring a sword to a gunfight. Bottom line.
If the sword gets within 20′ the swordsman is probably going to seriously injure or kill the pistoleers. The converse is also possible, but a huge percentage of close range shots miss: more than 80% as I recall.
Swinging around a knife or sword fits in much better with the capabilities of someone going through the adrenalin rush of combat.
So with 10 rounds fired: pistoleers hits swordsman twice, and swordsman probably chops off a hand. Not sure if anyone wins that one.
Rule number one: try really really hard not to let aggressors get within 25′.
Who says I’m going to let someone with a sword get that close to me, or even know I’m there? If they are 20′ feet from me, they are gonna die from lead poisoning. 33 round clips make sure of that.
And, in order to really use a sword properly, you have to be trained in hand to hand, which most people aren’t. In that case, the best thing to use is not a sword, but infact a machete, which in reality, most pirates used a form of. Swords required too much room which a ship deck did not have. A cutlass on the other hand, only required a chopping motion to use. Think of a meat cleaver.
And if someone misses after firing 10 rounds within 10 feet, well.. I could be a smart ass and say they deserve to die. Practice, practice, practice makes perfect.
Sword? what are you thinking, If an adversary see’s you with a sword, their certainly not going to let you get close enough to let you use it. A good sword weighs up to ten to fifteen pounds, more than a M14 loaded .. try moving fast with that. And never never let someone that close… Remember the “21 foot rule”, a determined running attacker with a knife can stab you from 21 feet out even though you have hit him with rounds, you may have inflicted a mortal wound, but he’s still going to get you ..
Ten to Fifteen pounds? Get serious. We aren’t talking about Broadswords that were intended to cleave a Clidesdale in twain, we’re talking about swords that people used to use in the age before firearms, which averaged closer to three to five pounds throughout most societies in history. Nobody wanted to carry a 12 lbs sword around back in the day when you had to walk everywhere.
Actually no, a good sword does not weigh 10 to 15lbs. I have a real honest to goodness Katana. It weighs no where near 10 to 15 lbs. The only swords that I have seen that are real swords that weigh that much, and not fancy fantasy swords, are Claymores. And I don’t think too many people will be carrying them around, or will even know how to use one.
OK, so if I am a Knight, Lvl 2, with a “Sword of Doom”, do I get plus 2 attack? M.D. please be serious! If I out live my ammo then I will be either OLD as dirt or lucky/un-lucky as Hell! If there are more bad guys than the ammo I have…I’ll be dead…PERIOD! It is only a matter of time. Watch the movies Zulu and Zulu Dawn and then get back to me on sword usage.
Also, how many rabbits/deer can you get with a sword?
Finally, for those among us who have not engaged in direct combat…it’s all good in theory, but I will tell you FOR A FACT that it is much easier to drop a Zombie at 50m vs. grappling and cutting the same freak at close quarters.
In Zulu, firearms made the difference. In Zulu Dawn, the guys with the spears won. I’m just sayin’.
OK lets lay this out to be clear. Yes, swords are passe’ in modern combat, especially if the other has a gun IN HAND beyond 21′. So should you engage a man that out in the open in you front yard with a edged weapon?
NO. If you have no ammo for your firearm or it doesn’t work then this is where the bow from a concealed position and a surprise firing would be your only chance and theirs the possibility you could screw it up like anything else. He’ll kill you on the reload if you miss.
But what about letting the fly come to the spider? Let the guy in to your home and with the lights off. You know the place better than him and you’ll know the right place to hide and when to strike on you own terms.
Remember how I said earlier that if the person in the yard had a weapon IN HAND at less than 21′? JesSter you may know what I reguarding to the “21′ rule”, But I’m going to give a quick and dirty rundown for the people that don’t.
It was in 1977 in Love Canal, NY . To rookie police officers respond to a call of a woman with a knife, acting in a unusual manner. When the officers arrived they approached the woman who was standing on the porch of her home. She had a butcher knife in hand. In those days it was policy in many department across the nation that if you pulled your weapon, you faced alot of paperwork and the possiblity disciplinary action for doing so. So you only drew if you were going to fire. Love Canal, NY was one of those departments.
What happened next came from eye witness accounts and forensics evidence.
The two officers tried to reason with the mentally distraut woman. Both officers had gotten within the 21′ of her, in the course of the conversation. But there was no reasoning with her and she charged the officers both tried to draw their holstered weapons, but she closed the distance too fast and she stabbed and killed both officers. The real kicker here is the woman weighted 300+ pounds and she still was able to do what she did.
That one incident shook law enforcement to the core. It’s been studied to death by numerous law enforcement tactical experts and all have come to the same conculsion———– If you don’t have your gun in hand when a person has a knife and within 21″ feet, your dead!!
Thus as a guard, I along with all national Law Enforcement are trained at the moment you see any weapon, you draw. If the subject gets within the 21′ feet– negotiation time is over and you shoot to stop!!!
Ask any CQB expert why they train SWAT and military the way they do when coming in to a building, for it’s bad if the other guy has a knife, but it can be worse if the person inside the structure has a knife, a hatchet, Machete, ect and a little bit of common sense or trainning and he could put a man trained or otherwise on a slab all cut up.
So if you have a SWAT or a military house clearing team coming in then you got your job cut out for you. If it’s “Joe Crackhead” ,a member of the Hell’s Angles, or just a desperate person that’s out to steal all of what you have left in desperate times. A edged weapon has a good a chance as any if you fight the battle smart.
And for those of you that asked, yes I have a CS Spetsnaz shovel and it’s almost as good as the real Khukuri House Kukri I’ve bought. I wouldn’t hesitate to grab either one under the right circumstaces.
Rifleman 336
I forgot address one more item “How many rabbit / deer can you get with a sword?? Thats’ easy …None. They never used swords for hunting unless it was the “Coup Degrace” on game that played dead after being hit by a spear or a arrow. Or to put a animal down after it was caught in a trap.
The medieval world had many different weapons for different do different tasks, just like today, you don’t go duck hunting with a .30-06, do you???.
BTW hunting is the most inefficient means of getting food. Trapping and sustainable agriculture was the keys to the a bigger population on this planet as it is to your survival in a long term survival situation.
But a Melee’ weapon are just as useful as having a gun or knowing Hand to Hand combatives, for you must learn broad spectrum of means to survival a fight, just as it does to operate day to day to put food on table.
Rifleman 336
A compound bow, a machete or tomahawk, and a Ka-Bar will better suit any survivalist in the modern age. I, for one, am Not considering the sword.
A couple years ago I scored a 5 gal bucket full of large dessicant packs (about the size of a bag of M&Ms) for free from a computer company that sold and installed servers for companies and corporations. I place one pack inside each of my .30 & .50 cal ammo cans. Another place to check into is places that sell pianos.
Whoa! I know they would, all of them less the cartoon character, be dangerous after the you know what hits the fan. I like your chart and it’s one that I will never forget. Each one with a different set of skills. The cowboys are marksmen, watch ‘em. The old lady is clever and dastardly deep down. The martial artist has a tactical and fighting edge and the knowledge of how to conserve his energy when fighting, outlasting others. The muscle man is too strong for most men and he can do lots of damage to the body and things around him. The others are prepared and in the position of already taking aim before you can even get your gun out, sniper-like I would say. Put them all together and they are one heck of a fighting machine. The cartoon resembles a muslim on steroids. The most dangerous one on the chart is the black cardboard cutout target. What might be hiding behind it at dusk or dawn? I wouldn’t take any chances, seriously. That’s the creepiest because in a real situation, that’s where an enemy may choose to hide. It’s black, it’s the shape of a human head and shoulders, darkness conceals and it sends shivers up my spine. Thanks for the interesting and useful chart, M.D. I would probably spend my ammunition on getting rid of the cardboard guy until he fell to the ground and I knew he were dead.
?????????????????????
LOL
Now THAT is what I call thinking outside of the box. Good one SrvivlSally :-)
Did you ever post anyplace as “SillySally”?
Excellent posting. This is why I have been involved in Aikido and Iaido for the last 25 years, using the sword, knife and bo staff. I do this because you don’t always have a gun when you need one.
On the topic of killing with bladed weapons (or killing in general), I suggest a book; On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society, by LTC Dave Grossman.
The main point of the book is that, contrary to popular perception, up until the Korean War (for American service members), most of those in combat – 80% or more, normally – did not ever fire their weapons in battle, even to protect themselves, due to what the Grossman show is an innate resistance to killing. Many of those firing likely were purposely not hitting their human targets. This phenomenon has been noted as far back as Alexander the Great and is cross-cultural.
Of note concerning killing with edged weapons is that most deaths from such throughout history were from cuts rather than penetrating thrusts, and almost no one is ever killed by bayonet. Humans seem to have a real aversion to killing by penetrating the body with an edged weapon, which explains why I cannot watch the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the German solider kills and American soldier by driving a knife slowly into his chest.
A great read, highly recommended.
Dave Grossman is also the idiot who says that video games make you violent. We were making fun of that imbecile when I was in middle school: “If video games make you violent, then why do they end up hacking hundreds of thousands of people to death with macettes in countries that don’t have TVs, much less videogames?” The idea that killing is something that doesn’t come naturally to humans is such a naive concept, it barely warrants refutation.
Pre-Judeo-Christian societies were EXTREMELY violent and they regularly participated in activities like human sacrifice, like tossing their infant children into fires. There is no natural sense of guilt or remorse in killing, and after major battles, the feasts often consisted of the enemy dead, or sometimes the live captives.
Slavery was the HUMANE alternative to what was then “the old ways” of simply killing every single member of an enemy’s tribe. Men, women, children… everyone. Castration was commonplace, because the testicles were a rare delicacy thought to increase virility. Humans have always been brutal, like Chimpanzees, but with advanced weaponry. In short, Dave Grossman is an idiot, but thanks for the book suggestion.
Matt,
The book is not about video games, it’s about killing in war; very, very different topics.
I’d say that drugged up kids hacking people to death with machetes is also a different topic than video games. I’ve spent time in many countries in Africa, including Rwanda and Sudan in the east coast, and know there are a lot of different issues/factors at play there.
Talk of sacrifice is also apples/oranges – you’re speaking of people who self-selected to kill rather than those in armies or in other situations where self-defense is an issue.
The book clearly lays out some stats that are significant. One would have to read that to, you know, refute it.
In short, you’re speaking of a lot of things that have nothing to do with the book I recommended, but thanks for the completely unrelated info.
I’ll add;
The percentage of those firing weapons in Vietnam and since went up to 95%. Why? Specific training to desensitize soldiers. Such as realistic targets and situations. Proven. Same kind of training LE, FBI, etc. now use. It’s proven effective at getting people to use their weapons when they need to by in part removing resistance to killing. Well recognized in mil/LE communities.
Grossman may (or may not) have misapplied that to video games. I suspect that violence/being desensitized doesn’t make one more prone to seek or initiate violence, but may remove the resistance to resorting to it when confronted (e.g., Timmy may have run or done soemthign else before, but now will fight back, etc.).
Uhh, no SS, I was talking about the credibility of the author, who knew less about History, Psychology, and Antrhopology as a retired US Army Lt. Colonel than I did as a smartass, know-it-all 7th grader. If the author isn’t credible, and he misuses statistics, then his arguement is invalid by default. I never had to read “Mein Kampf” to know it was bullshit, either.
“I’d say that drugged up kids hacking people to death with machetes is also a different topic than video games. ” Uhhh, no. It’s not. It’s about violence and people’s natural inclination towards it, which Grossman insists is a learned behavior. His thesis is that people are naturally cowards and have an natural aversion to violence, which is a demonstrable falsehood. That’s what his book was about, although maybe you should take a closer look at it if that wasn’t clear.
I didn’t say his book was about videogames, I said “Dave Grossman is also the idiot who…”. As I recall, he was the big time darling of the Left because he said things like “If you want an assault rifle, join the Army.” He was on a crusade after Columbine to get firearms AND violent videogames and other “harmful” media BANNED, because he’s a Fascist.
A survey of 3000 soldiers from a specific country and culture during a given conflict is not an accurate represention of all the humans currently on the planet, much less all of the humans who have ever existed in wildly different cultures, times, and places. There is NO NATURAL RESISTANCE TO KILLING. People have a natural aversion to firearms because they are loud and scary, but small children will frequently bite and hit and kick eachother over possession of a toy, and little boys will frequently kill small animals for no reason until they are punished and told not to.
The implication is that killing is not natural, and as I demonstrated with the Human Sacrifice argument, it’s not only perfectly natural, and all too common throughout human history, it’s something that people often ELECTED to do to other people of their own free will.
Would you volunteer to be burned at the stake to help the harvest? Will you pass your newborn son through the fire to please Moloch? NO?! Why not? Because you learned that that was EVIL at an early age, not because you were naturally born with any sense of morality. Free Will is a decidedly Western Concept, and in an age before Judeo-Christian values, you did what you were told, and you didn’t question it, and it didn’t make you feel bad.
We have things like brain scans nowadays that show people get a release of Endorphines when they see someone else get hurt or killed. It’s called Shadenfreude (Shameful Joy) or Bloodlust. In an age when every piece of meat was a rare treat, and everything was killed by hand, you think people had a hard time cutting someone open? Do you think they were squeemish at the sight of blood or pain as late as Ancient Rome? They didn’t exactly preach peace and tollerance in the ancient world.
If modern people’s need to be taught to kill, it’s because they need to be UNTAUGHT that which they have learned since birth, which is the sanctity of human life, a distinctly Western Concept which is all too absent in most of the rest of the world. Dave Grossman is WRONG about the very mechanisms of violence, and no poorly done Army statistic from WWII, Korea, or Vietnam can refutiate the entire history of the Homosapien species and modern scientific understanding of the Human brain.
Dear Suburban Survivalist.
You old enough to remember the “rabbit test” and high altitude interrogations ? Ah, Good times.
the rat
I am pretty sure the question of topic was, How long will your stockpiles of ammunition last ? People take swords,knives and hatchets to another subject or topic. I have learned a great deal by reading the posts here and was for the most part very impressed by the input and ideas given. This is fubar.
I think the bottom line and the moral of the story is always have backup weapons. Guns/Shotguns/Rifles, crossbow/bow, hatchet, knives, stupid sticks (asp, riot stick, etc) and even knowledge of making primitive weapons such as spears (which BTW, is very hard to defend against in a bladed fight). A sharp can lid can do more damage than a sharp knife. Imagine several imbedded and tied to a tree limb or broom stick.
And also some knowledge of chemistry of how to make helpful tools with an application of fire is also needed.
And in a rut, Cayenne pepper and an ounce of water will make good pepper spray,. as will hairspray, spraypaint… etc. You have to think outside of the box, just incase.
You have to be flexable, is the bottom line.
Steele,
I’ve read recommendations to use wasp spray as a backup since it usually has a range of 20′ or more.
All gobblins are to be considered armed. If you have time to go through that flow chart before you take action than you have time to leave the threat area. A blade is a good back up and only that. Do not use this guys flow chart as a determination as how to respond to a threat with a blade or firearm. The blade requires close contact which increase your risk of injury. Distance in any fight is your friend. You bring your blade and I will bring my concealed pistol and blade and then leave with an extra blade. This advise is stupid, reckless, and speaks to the authors lack of real work experience.
I agree.
Matt,
I agree completely that for many people killing is natural and you don’t need to read Mein Kampf to know Hitler was nuts. However, that has nothing to at all do with the book or Grossman’s observations based on historical data in a book that wasn’t a political screed.
You consistently insist on making apples/oranges comparisons, exacerbated by the fact you haven’t read the book I’m referring to and clearly have no idea what you’re speaking of in regards to it. You incorrectly state the thesis of the book – completely wrong. You also demonstrably don’t understand the stats you berate. The point here is you don’t need to read the book, but you should not speak about it as if you know some thing about it when you don’t.
Again, the self-selected violence in the examples you provide is not at all the topic/issue of the book or the research/stats presented there, it’s primarily about organized killing in war (large groups). That’s why your arguments (e.g. on sacrifice) have mostly nothing to do with the actual research/stats in presents.
One does not need to agree with some recommended prescriptions to a problem to have a similar interpretation of what the underlying data mean (classic example, crime and gun control). So Grossman’s recommendations concerning video games or gun control is one thing, and you can get wrapped around the axle about that all day long.
But, in the case of killing in war and how training relates, the undeniable fact of the matter is that adjustments in military training to overcome what is described and well backed up in the book has resulted in modern militaries that have much higher fire rates.
These are well documented observations, not recommendations. That’s the reality of the issue.
When one speaks about things they don’t know about like they do, it’s obvious to those who have a clue.
As we know,
There are known knowns.
There are things we know we know.
We also know
There are known unknowns.
That is to say
We know there are some things
We do not know.
But there are also unknown unknowns,
The ones we don’t know
We don’t know.
Most, “smartass, know-it-all 7th grader[s]” eventually grow up and realize they don’t actually know it all.
The title of the book is “On Killing”, but apparently comparing warfare in the ancient world, genocide in the recent past, human sacrifce generally, and human nature specifically has nothing to do with “Killing”. Who knew Apples and Oranges were so damn similar?
Speaking of things that have nothing to do with the subject at hand, what the hell does Grossman’s ibecilic book have to do with the use of Swords in a TEOTWAWKI secario? As you are dramatically off topic, the fact that I haven’t read some random book you suggested that was written by someone who has been incorrect in every publicly made assertion that I have ever heard him make is IRRELAVANT. You have yet to disprove a single one of my assertions, and the only thing you have to defend your pointless, unnecessary, and off-topic observation is “Well you haven’t even read it!”
Higher fire rates? Try “Dynamic Warfare” or “Semi-Automatic Rifle” or “Fully Automatic Rifle”, since neither you, nor Grossman, seem to realize that changes in technology and warfare tactics account for changes in rates of fire and make it easier to fire more frequently.
As for Observations, Grossman’s interpretation of other people’s observations lead him to incorrect assertions, which are provably false, meaning he doesn’t have a clue. Your comment that it was a good book leads me to observe that you don’t know what you are talking about, and your petty attempts to try to slander me for not sharing your dogmatic adhearance to that moron’s work only proves it.
“Of note concerning killing with edged weapons is that most deaths from such throughout history were from cuts rather than penetrating thrusts,”
Tell that to the people who were killed with spears, which were always the primary weapon in ancient combat. The Grecco-Roman, Hoplite style of warfare uses spears and short, pointed swords behind heavy shield with the explict tactic being stabbing thrusts. This was the Western Way of War for thousands of years, and it conquered most of the known world.
“…and almost no one is ever killed by bayonet.” Do you mean in a bayonnet charge? I have known many people who have killed enemy soldiers with Bayonets, including my Grandfather who killed two German sentries in WWII with his field knife. A friend and fellow co-worker was a member of the elite SOG unit in Vietnam and he showed me the Dagger he used to dispatch several NVA soldiers with during raids.
“Humans seem to have a real aversion to killing by penetrating the body with an edged weapon, which explains why I cannot watch the scene in Saving Private Ryan where the German solider kills and American soldier by driving a knife slowly into his chest.” You may be squeemish about it, but hand to hand combat is often less civilized than you might realize. I suggest you research “Rough and Tuble” warfare vs. “Fighting Fair” from Grady McWhiney’s “Cracker Culture” or read Thomas Sowell’s Black Rednecks and White Liberals http://freedomkeys.com/blackrednecks.htm
My point from the first has been that Grossman is an uncredible source as his thesis is WRONG. I didn’t need to read “Arming America”, “An Inconvient Truth”, “The Communist Manifesto”, or the previously mentioned “Mein Kampf” because the authors weren’t credible and their assertions and world views are demonstrably false. Therefore, it wasn’t worth trying to better understand their perspective. Get it? Is this a hard concept to grasp? I don’t need to read cherry-picked statistics to know that Grossman is wrong about the central thesis of his work.
Matt,
The full title of the book, as given in my original comment, might help; On Killing: The Psychological Cost of Learning to Kill in War and Society. The society part mostly is about the social/psychological effects (the “cost” in the title) on those who’ve killed. The “learning” part is also important. By ignoring the subtitle – keywords – you got it wrong, so yes, apple/oranges.
Again going by to my original comment on this topic, there is an entire paragraph there on bladed weapons. Bladed weapons (as well as fighting/killing in general) is a topic of this post, so an appropriate reply. Not sure why you’re going there since you reply to some of that (with anecdotal info). As an aside, attacking my comment on the basis of appropriateness is a big, fat red herring at this point, aside from being another miss.
Higher fire, and associated kill, rates. That’s more soldiers actually shooting during combat. It’s a fact, not an opinion. It’s why we train the way we do; it works. Desensitizing and conditioning is effective.
Statistically, almost no one is killed by bayonet, it is exceedingly rare. Anecdotal stories – and I have a few of my own – don’t change that. That obviously not to say it doesn’t occur, it does, but that it’s well documented as being rare.
“Dogmatic adhearance”? From your responses, it’s clear you still don’t know what Grossman’s theory on this really is, beyond a vague idea colored by your preconceptions. You don’t even know what you’re accusing me of adhering to. My brief summary was perhaps lacking (besides apparently being dismissed out of hand) and your initial research has evidently been a failure as well. So sure I’ll say “read the book” – it’s the only way for you to respond to the issues you attempt to raise in any meaningful way. Or you could stop pretending to know what a book you haven’t read says.
As a result of this willful ignorance, your comparisons, examples, and replies have been off the mark, disproving nothing in the book. He (and anyone) can be wrong about some things (recommendations for gun control, for example), yet still accurately present data and make observations in other areas, and come to logical conclusions. Dumb people on the left (or right) are rarely wrong in everything. At this point, Grossman could say “prepping is a good thing” and your kneejerk response would probably be to disagree.
My personal evaluation of the book, sources, personal, and yes even anecdotal, experience has led me to believe stats/historical data/etc. carry weight, in this case. You don’t have to like it, but cannot refute factually, the historical statistics and results we’ve seen in training.
I’ll probably not reply again, unless some point is addressed meaningfully, which is unlikely given the trend.
Oh, and the rates of fire don’t mean the number of bullets – it’s the number of soldiers pulling triggers. But you didn’t’ know that, you assumed you did.
Oh, I see my mistake now. I assumed you were a rational, logical, inteligent person, when clearly that isn’t the case. Grossman and his proponents, that would be you, are foolish. But you can have the last word, I’m sure your ego needs it.
Very few things in life are as satisfying as plunging your blade into your enemy. It is a lot like sex, a close intimate act. You see the initial shock on their face when they realize what has happened.
Then you feel the warm liquid flow out onto your thumb and fingers and smell the copper smell of warm blood fill the air.
You see the blood drain from their face and see their pupils dilate as the synapses in their brain start to fire less and you see the look of confusion as their life ebbs away.
You see the regret on their face when they realize they won’t see their loved ones again.
Is it hard to do? It is like being a virgin and not quite knowing what to expect. Once the awkward first time is out of the way I’ve known people who grew to love it.
“hand to hand combat is often less civilized than you might realize” That is the understatement of the century!
Penetrating a body with a sharp stick or your pecker is primal and there is NOTHING civilized about it! My apologies to the ladies for my vulgarity.
I hope that you boys that have learned about war from books and video games never have to see the things some of us have seen.
one more thing:
Mein Kampf is required reading at the Army War College. You want to understand the mind of your enemy.
Not respecting your enemy enough to learn his ways is a mistake you won’t get to make twice.
the rat
“On Killing” is required reading at West Point.
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_XCkTSf0swcQ/Sxen_T8FmMI/AAAAAAAAGQA/uXlkoCw1vzg/s320/onkilling.jpg
Evidently the people who run military education disagree with Matt’s assessment.
Can we take this little debate elswhere girls? I hate reading this crap on every single f***ing forum. Get over yourselves. Oh, and i did read Mein Kampf.
Someone once told me that a lifetime supply of ammo is “one magazine, plus whatever you can take from the enemy you just killed.”
I’ve got a better solution. I have every book on black powder I can get my hands on, and several black powder pistols. I’ve saved old car batteries and other sources of lead, and have the knowledge and equipment to make my own bullets, powder etc. I’ve got 100,000 or so primers as well. The smart money says a black powder six-gun loaded with my homemade powder and bullets will beat a long piece of steel every time…
I have read that you can’t use car battery Lead because the acid mixes with the moisture in the air and creates a poisonous gas. Don’t know if it’s true, the possibility of poison gas always dissuades me from trying new things. You might want to look into that and secure another source of lead. I recommend rotometals.com, which has reasonable prices on every Lead alloy I know of.
I have a much shorter decision cycle:
1) Threat?
Yes – shoot
No – Don’t shoot
If I anticipate closing to within sword range of a threat, I can also anticipate 100% on-target shooting with a gun. Allotting 2 rounds of .45ACP per target, I can increase my “survivability” by 25 attackers for the price of a box of ammo.
Note: At some point, if enough people try, they’re going to get you. Surviving 25 attacks is a pretty good record in itself. Reducing the decision cycle to a single node has the great advantage of speeding up your reaction considerably. Too: What if your opponent has a gun? Stupid you: Taking a sword to a gun fight.
In addition, letting someone get within sword range when you can stop them well beyond their ability to touch you, is plain foolish.
Rather than lug around several more pounds of metal in the form of a sword, you’d be better served to buy a couple boxes of ammo and get in a bit more practice with your firearm of choice.
Hell with as much as I’ve said about Melee’ weapons their is the old gunfight saying of:
In a gunfight against multiple adversaries, if you kill one,your even, kill two and your ahead,….. hell you might even win!!!
Working as a armed guard I used to get a hard time for “only” carrying a six shot .357 Magnum revolver. But statistics from the FBI showed if you didn’t get the BG in two to three shots, either you’ll be the one down on the ground bleeding to death, you got the BG or The BG is running for the hills because your a lousy shot under stress.
The sad facts of life every engagement bring you statisticaly one step closer to a pinebox. True their are those luck few in history that have survived multiple engagements but we all can’t hope that we’re one of them, best to avoid the fight when possible. And you save ammo!!!!:D
Heya Preppers,
Couple of things…. Sword Buyer’s Guide has cheapish swords that ARE cutters and battle ready carbon steel blades fairly cheap, I bought my bargain katana for $69.00. (unfortunately discontinued) For a bit over one hundred dollars you can get one with better furniture, but it won’t cut any better. In the $300.00 range you can get a cheness cutlery sword and those are top notch. They have some TRULY durable swords made with silicone carbon steel which are insanely immune to abuse. One tester used one to cut steel square tube and did not harm the blade much and cut fairly deeply into the STEEL tubing. I was impressed as hell. link for the review with the testing videos for the Oniyuri.
http://www.sword-buyers-guide.com/authentic-ninja-sword.html
Link for the other dojo cutters Cheness handles
http://sbg-sword-store.sword-buyers-guide.com/9260.html
Some of the cheaper swords made by and sold by Musashi, decent quality and they DO cut
http://www.musashiswords.com/shop/home.php?xid=c7a4e7da41f0c737258743c4f6b6e88a
Stainless swords are wall hangers…..period. They have a high probability for shattering on impact with something as soft as a tree limb and turning into a grenade with splinters and shards flying everywhere, a danger to the user and all others nearby. Stainless steel blades are fine for shorter blades, but too brittle for longer flexible blades.
One more thing….don’t think any idiot can swing a sword and cut through a limb or a man… technique is key with some swords and inconsequential to other types. Katanas require proper technique to cut properly, swing it like a bat and a push cut is the best you will manage, use it properly and it’ll slice effortlessly through nearly any target. I use pool noodles as targets to practice proper technique. They knock over in a good stand if you hit them wrong, and slice “like buttah” if you hit them right. Leaf bladed and curved swords are easier to get a good slice with than straight blades.
GIJeff
An interesting train of thought. Let’s assume the premise of the original post, that you are down to hoarding ammo and have to make do with more primitive weapons. The sword is not necessarily a bad way to go. There were a lot of misconceptions brought forth during the course of the replies about swords, some of which were corrected, some of which were not.
Before we get into that allow me to give you my bona fides. I have been a medieval re-enactor for some twenty years or better, the last fifteen of which have been of the hard core museum quality variety focusing on the fifteenth century. I have fought in armor with sharp steel and have jousted, have studied the make up and actual weight of medieval weapons, have studied Western Martial Arts (historically documented long sword fighting) for the last seven or so years (both Italian and German styles) and taught it off and on for the last four. Some one earlier mentioned the SCA, and God bless ‘em, they got me started but I abandoned them when I discovered historically accurate re-enacting. The SCA in my day was far from it and the modern fighting they use is decidedly less than what you want in a life or death situation. Their fighting conventions do not allow some of the deadlier moves of the historical styles. I will not argue with the katana practitioners out there and while some of the moves in both European and Oriental systems are similar the styles are not really compatible. Apples and oranges. What I will address is the style I teach which is unarmored hand and a half sword fighting in the German style.
Myth busting 101:
Swords are heavy and you have to have muscles like Ahhhnold to swing one.
Most swords, both single hand and the hand and a half that I teach the use of, rarely weighed more than three and a half pounds as has been pointed out in a previous post, most in the 2.5 to 3lb range. Some of the larger two handers might actually get up to five. Swords were both light and flexible, made of high carbon steel. Halberds were also mentioned and in fact almost all medieval weapons rarely got over the five pound mark, that being the maximum weight the average soldier could use for extended periods of time. The only difference would be the point of balance. Take for instance the halberd, total weight with a seven foot haft five pounds. Three for the metal head and two for the hexagonal cross section ash wood haft, most of the weight at the head rather than over the entire length as in the sword.
Sword fights last a long time.
Who hasn’t seen the hero and the villain battling up and down the castle stairs or across the courtyard for minutes on end? I call bull s__t. You have been watching too many Errol Flynn movies. Watch them again, closely, the actors are aiming at each other’s blades instead of the person they are fighting. But if they don’t they’ll get hit you say. Not so sez I. You can strike at your opponent in such a manner as to put your sword in the way of his, thus protecting yourself and threatening him at the same time. It’s really easy once you know the basics. Oh, there may be a lot of initial maneuvering in a real fight that may take up some time but once the blades touch, the fight is usually over in five seconds or less. The first one to make a mistake loses. There isn’t much entertainment value in a five second fight.
Only the strong survive.
Not necessarily. The German style (I gave up on the Italian as too complicated) of the Fechtmeister’s Liechtenauer, Tallhoffer and others teach among other things to fight strength with weakness and weakness with strength. For argument’s sake, let’s pit Conan against Ichabod Crane, both equally skilled in the art. Both start with their blades on or about their right shoulders in a two handed grip and strike at their opponent’s neck with a downward stroke, in what is a classic zornhau or strike of wrath. The blades meet somewhere in the middle and Conan being the stronger easily pushes Ichabod’s blade out of the way. Ichabod is doomed, no? NO. Ichabod being the thinking man that he is realizes this is coming and after blade contact, lifts his left hand high rotating and tilting his blade so the point is down and to his right, allowing Conan’s blade backed by the impetus of his mighty muscles to slide down its length towards the ground. Ichabod’s point is now directed at Conan’s throat while Conan’s blade is somewhere down around his feet. Ichabod thrusts into the unprotected throat before Conan can recover. Fight over, weakness overcoming strength. Your brain is your greatest weapon.
Good swords cost a lot.
Yes they can. What is your life worth? See Museum Replicas for the Volkswagen model and Albion for the Cadillac and Del Tin in Italy for something in between. There are also some good custom smiths out there. Stay away from the mall cutlery shops unless they carry either of these brands most of what they have are suitable for wall decoration only.
Longbow vs. crossbow.
The longbow has a faster rate of fire, requires more strength and takes longer to train on, easier to make than a crossbow.
Crossbow is easier to learn but has a slow rate of fire and requires two hands on the string to cock. Like guns, if parts break they will need to be replaced so have spares. They are also a bitch to re-string.
Nuff said.
Machete.
Very much like the German grosmesser, but a little more blade heavy. There is a fighting style that will translate very well to its use as a weapon. Look up any books or videos on Lecuchner for this style of fighting.
Spear.
Can be a viable weapon, just don’t throw it. Use as a thruster.
Make no mistake, I am very well versed in the use of modern fire arms as well as cap and ball, and these will be my first choice in any fight and in that order. That being said, what will happen in a true TEOTWAWKI situation when the bullets and powder run out. What good are your shooting skills then? Will you be able to pass that skill on to your successors? Will your ancestors have enough ammo? Sword fighting is a skill that you can pass on; swords do not run out of ammo.
If you are truly interested in learning this art the best book out there is by Hugh Knight and is available at Lulu.com. “The Knightly Art of the Longsword”. I have read a lot of books on the subject and this is easily the best. Don’t let the photos of Hugh put you off. I have met the man and seen him move, he knows his stuff. He also has a book on fighting with the spear.
great post hbbill, way to nail the topic
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