Questions about obama care?

by M.D. Creekmore on June 28, 2012 · 122 comments

Letter from Gwen…

I need to know some things about Obama care. First of all, I know that if you don’t buy health insurance, then you have to pay a tax when your file your return. I was reading today, and saw that the tax would be around $700/per adult in the household. So — we are forced to pay $21,600/year for mandatory health insurance, but if I refused to pay it, I would have to pay $2,100/year in a tax penalty.

At the same time, Obama care supposedly says that nobody can be refused for insurance at any time. So — if I refuse to buy insurance for 10 years and instead pay the tax — then get sick and need insurance right away — they have to give it to me, right? And in the meantime, I can pay out of pocket for minor care that we might need? I guess what I am asking everybody is: is there a way to game Obama care?

Liberals have been gaming the system for decades, maybe it’s time for massive groups of conservatives to do the same thing….

122 comments

SurvivorDan June 28, 2012 at 3:04 pm

Apparently one could do as you suggest. Pay the penalty. Upon getting sick, secure a health policy (no pre-existing issues anymore) immediately and get care. Recover and then drop the policy. Sweet.

Mike June 28, 2012 at 3:35 pm

I don’t know a lot about this Obamacare, living in Canada and all.

But if everyone waited until they got sick to get insurance, then dropped it right after, wouldn’t that destroy insurance companies, destroying anyone’s ability to pay for health care and then destroy the health care system? It seems kinda counterproductive.

Wouldn’t it be better to force insurance companies to make health insurance more affordable for everyone while putting mandated checks in place to try to reduce/eliminate insurance fraud and even cutting off chronic abusers?

patient zero June 28, 2012 at 5:02 pm

“Wouldn’t it be better to force insurance companies to make health insurance more affordable for everyone while putting mandated checks in place to try to reduce/eliminate insurance fraud and even cutting off chronic abusers?”

How exactly do you force them to make it more affordable?

Mike June 28, 2012 at 7:29 pm

I have no idea. I’ve grown up in socialized medicine. I’m used to no health insurance and super long wait times.

Just asking the question.

Personally I would prefer to pay for my own health insurance and not pay for everyone elses, but I’m just looking from the other side of the fence.

worrisome June 28, 2012 at 8:11 pm

Not only can we not force them to make it more affordable, they will give you statistics until your eyes bleed that they are really paying out between 85 to 92% of premiums in claims and running the administrative side of things with the rest of it.

Cindy Schumacher June 30, 2012 at 1:20 am

Worrisome, many of us remember when there were actually market forces in the system. Guess what? It works.

worrisome June 30, 2012 at 1:35 pm

Agreed, it should work. Not terribly convince that health insurance carriers are all that honest about accounting is all. I am a capitalist, honest!

charlie (NC) June 30, 2012 at 3:45 pm

There are some simple steps that would go a long way
towards fixing healthcare.

1) get control of ambulance chasing tort lawyers. They have their place but maybe something like Brittians Loser Pays system would stop the frivilous suits and cause the insurance companies to fight the suits instead of settling.

2) allow any viable group to have group insurance coverage. Imagine the buying power of the NRA or the National Association of Realtors or the Catholic, Methodist or Baptist Church. Put incentives in the coverage plans to prevent abuse. Even folks covered by their employers would be less likely to run to the doctor for every little sniffle if they got some sort of financial incentive for holding their med costs down. It could be done just by having higher deductables or lower deductables with rebates if the yearly deductables were not met.

3) portability that would allow folks to take their coverage with them from job to job or job to retirement if they retire before they qualify for Medicare.

4) get the government out of the system and let the free market forces work. Once that happens Medicare could actually be phased out by things like health savings plans.
If folks were allowed to front load enough money, pre-tax into health savings plans many folks who are lucky enough to be healthy could fund their own senior health care with nothing more than a catastophic policy for major illnesses and if they remain healthy those funds should be allowed to pass to heirs death tax free.

If those things were done medical cost would come down, care would improve and abuse of the system.

tommy2rs June 29, 2012 at 6:41 pm

How exactly do you force them to make it more affordable?

Uh…Nationalize the insurance industry, run it as a non-profit with low low premiums and in typical government fashion mismanage it until the whole house of cards collapses under it’s own bureaucratic weight.

Then blame Bush.

axelsteve June 28, 2012 at 9:08 pm

Illegal aliens are what is destroying the american healthcare system. :-?

pj July 1, 2012 at 7:46 am

And legal citizens who abuse the system. “i got a sore throat. I will go to er for free instead of the Dr & pay for it instead of buying a bag of pot.

JET July 3, 2012 at 2:47 pm

In Yobamacare it is stated you cannot charge any non citizen for coverage and cant deny them coverage. Good deal EH? Plus when he pardons those who care not a whit for the law of the land and make them good dems. YOU ensure loads of votes for the gravy train . I have had to get Govt cheese as a kid and had unemployment services bail me out and keep me from loosing my home not bad govt services RIGHT! I also served my country and gave up six years of my life. Servicemen sign on the dotted line , check payable , my life if necessary to defend the constitution. Not to defend every poor bugger from every dirt poor country.
I consider myself a Christian You know, teach them to fish, not just give them a fish? IT also says in the good book ,cast not your pearls before swine. Dont waste your resources.

axelsteve August 7, 2012 at 11:15 am

Well Mike affordable care and total disregard for illegial imagration is what killed our health industry in the first place. I say learn spanish for free health care. undocumented alien care is why our health care is so expensive. They are reaming the insurance companies on our care to pay for the free healthcare of the illegal migrants. Obama care will also go under in time for the same reason.

Lexington June 30, 2012 at 8:47 pm

I’m not going to address all the misinformation contained here, but as to the original question, theoretically you could just pay the penalty until you need health insurance. Of course what that insurance is going to cost when you actually need it, and what it will actually cover, is a completely different story.

It’s more than probable that while you cannot be refused coverage for a pre existing condition, you can be charge much more for it. And even if you can afford it, private insurers hold all the high cards in setting the terms, so you might not actually qualify for much treatment, except with massive co pays and deductibles.

That’s the beauty of your free market in action.

Steff June 28, 2012 at 3:06 pm

The initial penalty is small, subject to change whenever they want. This law doesn’t go into full until 2014, if TDL is still President then, we’ll have a lot more to worry about.

MrSpud in ID. June 29, 2012 at 2:12 pm

That’s right Axelsteve, they are a HUGE drain on the healthcare system here in Idaho. We have a very large “migrant farm worker” population. They use the local emergency rooms as primary care, then file as indigent with the hospital, and bang….free health care! The rest of us have to pay the price!

axelsteve June 30, 2012 at 10:31 am

Yep Mrspud. They use the emergency room for a fever.Some hospitals had to go bankrupt in southern calif to pay for imagrant care alone.Unfortunatlly they will still get it free under O care. So nothing has really changed.They are thinking of unionizing doctors. I bet they will be in the seiu mafia.

riverrider June 28, 2012 at 3:10 pm

of course. the game is built in. they couldn’t get us to buy off on socialized medicine, so they created this thing to fail on purpose, thereby throwing everybody into the “public option” which is socialized medicine. wait til the people find out they have to pay regular income tax on any benefits the insurance pays. so you’ll survive the heart surgery only to starve to death when you have to pay your life savings into income tax on the 200,000 that obamacare paid the corporation. welcome to egypt.

Dash June 28, 2012 at 3:44 pm

public option isn’t all bad. For example, I was born with a pre-existing condition. No insurance company will cover me, even though I’m in excellent health and have no selfinflicted risks (smoking, obesity, etc.) and have had little contact with the medical system so far in my life. So my provincial government covers my medical bills and I pay my premiums to them in the form of taxes. They have a vested interest in keeping me alive and productive, unlike the insurance companies that only want to insure those that they don’t expect to pay for.

I don’t really expect this to convince you, but I thought I’d put it out there

village idiot June 28, 2012 at 4:50 pm

What kept Congress from passing a law forcing insurance companies to provide insurance for people with pre-existing conditions? Or covering people up to the time they were 26 years old? Nothing. These problems could have been taken care of without screwing up so many other things, but were used as a pretext to pass the Democrat agenda. As for a government having a vested interest in keeping you alive and productive, I laughed at that. It looks to me more like the government has a vested interest in keeping people on the dole and not paying taxes. At least under Xerxes here in the US. You have a government in Canada that is at least halfway decent, rational and functioning.

worrisome June 28, 2012 at 8:17 pm

Agreed Village Idiot and this plan did pull together pre existing conditions, taking care of children, and several other needed reforms………then the Pelosi/Reid and their middle of the night conjurers added 2700 more pages of crap to it. They had it pretty close to correctable, prior the cluster they made of it. Premiums would have gone up on those early changes again, pre ex, children, standardizing and/or eliminating out of pockets and adding some preventative health care, but not nearly as much as they will now. At some pointI hope we all remember who is responsible for this abortion……..PELOSI, REID, ALL IN BOTH HOUSES WHO VOTED FOR IT AND A DELUSIONAL PRESIDENT. It is past time to take the teeth out of the tiger. But Nevada voted Reid back in 2010, not sure about Ms Senile Pelosi…………..so what the hell is it gonna take to get all the sheep in this country from continuing to blindly vote for these cretins???? What????

TomFish June 28, 2012 at 9:43 pm

What kept Congress from passing a law forcing insurance companies to provide insurance for people with pre-existing conditions? Or covering people up to the time they were 26 years old? Nothing.
—————
Then ya’ll would be complaining them damn liberals forced private companies to do something…which would of course mean that once they can force you to do one thing, they could force you to anything they want…it would be pandimonium and the sky would fall and we’d all be overrought at our new lack of freedom and liberty.

As for me, I agree that folks that have paid for their own insurance all of their life should never have a capped limit and it’ s not right to deny coverage. The insurance companies are a for profit entity and without oversight, they’ll take advantage of the very people that have made them wealthy.

I’m not a big fan of government and I’m not a big fan of big business health care and insurance companies….but between the two, I’ll choose a duly elected official over a private entity to determine the regulatory guidelines.

axelsteve June 28, 2012 at 9:16 pm

I was born with a pre exhisting condition and I have never had a problem getting insurance. I just sign up when employee plans in April. Such a b.s. story,and you could have kids on youor policy til 26 before tdl plan.

Dash June 29, 2012 at 8:25 am

I don’t think it is. I can’t get life insurance or supplementary health insurance even now. They tell me I’m a bad risk.

axelsteve June 30, 2012 at 10:35 am

Life insurance is different from medical insurance.

axelsteve August 7, 2012 at 11:21 am

You can get small life insurance policies with no health checks. get a 200k policy or a few and you should be ok.

worrisome June 29, 2012 at 10:34 am

Dash, don’t know where you live, but in most states you can buy insurance but it won’t cover a pre existing condition for a period of time following your enrollment. Eventually that clause runs out and you are covered for everything. If you work for an employer that has health insurance the same rules apply, after a while the pre ex is waived and/or if you enroll during a once a year enrollment period, then usually no pre ex applies. But since I don’t know where you live and don’t want to………it is hard to tell about your specific situation.

dsd1 June 29, 2012 at 10:41 am

dash,

does your country have 30 million + illegal immigrants that get all medical and other services for free (at the expense of your taxes)

does your country have 40% that exist solely on the welfare and handouts of the government – including free medical, free housing, free food, free cell phone, etc. (that are paid at the expense of your taxes)

does 50% +/- of your country pay ZERO taxes? (so who do you think pays the taxes that pays all their government handouts for them?)

the US government has zero vested interest in “keeping you alive and productive” they want the voters here uneducated, dependent and voting for more handouts (otherwise how do so many “dead” people seem to vote for democrats each year)

what people don’t seem to understand is this has nothing to do with giving the poor and underprivileged more handouts like free medical care (they already get that for free here including illegal aliens who are not citizens and have committed a federal crime by being here illegally!)

this is all about making a new “program” that further takes from the tax payers to pay MORE to the rapidly growing demographic of those who are dependent on government. it is just a new source of funding to continue paying for those who vote for handouts.

does your country advertise throwing a PARTY to encourage citizens to sign up for welfare? ours does…

http://www.fns.usda.gov/snap/outreach/toolkits/2011/resources/SNAP_SpecPop_ReachingSeniors.pdf

This Department of Agriculture pamphlet suggests “5 Fresh Ideas” on how to get people to sign up for food stamps

The federal government is also spending millions on advertising spots and PSA’s to beat the bushes for dependents.

it’s not about helping anybody it is about making people more dependent on the government (thereby guaranteed voters for their party) and finding the suckers to pay for it all.

i hope that makes it clear…

village idiot June 28, 2012 at 4:38 pm

Yep, the devil is in the details, river. Ole pruneface Pelosi was right when she said we’d have to pass the bill to see what was in it. Congress gave regulators the power to make all the rules, thus ceding the real power to the beaureaucrats in HHS. Sebeto is busy as we speak, and will be riding her broom across the country getting every commie proposal possible into the finished product. It’s too bad that she, Hillary and Big Sis Napolitano don’t run their brooms into each other. Ding Dong.

riverrider June 29, 2012 at 8:05 am

vi, yeah, you know why they let the 26 y/o’s stay on mommy and daddy’s policy was to keep their vote because the 26ers don’t have any motivation to get out of the basement and get a job, even if one was available. well, actually there are jobs, but the 26ers think they are too good to get their hands dirty. i know a cable contractor that can’t fill 10 15.00 an hour jobs between the drug test and the 26ers. they have no skills other than video gaming.

axelsteve June 28, 2012 at 9:12 pm

doctors are going to retire in droves or buying subway franchises. They won`t put up with tdl fertalizer in a bag. :-X

GeorgeisLearning June 29, 2012 at 7:20 am

holy crap. I hadn’t thought of that. I had paid of some old debts and had to pay tax on the difference of what I paid and what I owed. If we have to pay the tax on the health care ummm thats going to really really hurt should someone have a big health issue. Where did you get that info, I had’nt read about that part yet

GeorgeisLearning June 29, 2012 at 7:35 am

If you don’t buy the insurance and don’t pay the fine and don’t have enough to cover the fine in your tax refund (if you get one) then the fines and penalties will continue to build and build and build. The IRS can levy your bank account , seize your property and take your social security. Scary eh

Don’t worry I’m prolly just being paranoid rofl

My wifes a teacher Im not on her coverage, yet. We’ll be adding my in October, maybe. It will cost us about 475. a month to insure 2 adults and one kid.
What really upsets me is some corporations and congress get waivers , they dont have to be part of this. I want a law that any law for a regular person is also a law for the congress and everyone else. Lets call it the fairness law.
So if someone cant afford health insurance they get a waiver of some kind and still get free healthcare at the expense of others. Ok so if all the folks who cant pay still get free coverage how exactly is this going to help?

One thing our gubmint likes to do is make laws and such so hard to understand no one will bother . Who’s going to read 1000+ pages of legal text, I cant even read a disclaimer on a website.

So if you own a home or property I guess you have no choice pay of get levied

Papabear June 29, 2012 at 11:00 am

GeorgeIsLearning,
The biggest receipients of a waiver were the unions. These were the same unions that told their members who to vote for in 2008, took the union dues and sent them to the politicians that they wanted elected.

Ozarkanna June 28, 2012 at 3:30 pm

The decision about health care is not the full issue at hand. The companies that are Forced to pay for healthcare for their employees are going to have to raise their prices on everything– base products, manufacture, packaging, handling, shipping. At each step of the chain, costs are going to have to go up. The “cost of goods sold” at any retail location will, of course, lower any profits even as it raises retail prices beyond our reach. We are SO screwed. Can I change my name to “too tired to cry”?

Omo Bob June 29, 2012 at 3:11 pm

…and curtail wages in the form of decreases or freezes, so an employee’s income is static or decreased as costs go up…

radardeb June 28, 2012 at 3:42 pm

What ever happened to personal responsibility? Do you expect the rest of society to pay for your health care if you can afford it? If you are 133% of poverty level, you will get a voucher to pay for your insurance. This will decrease health care costs by keeping people from using the EXPENSIVE emergency room for things like sore throats, etc. Is requiring people to have auto insurance socialism? Is mandating FICA tax for Social Security socialism? Is Medicare socialism? If you think so, I’m sure you won’t be applying for any of those benefits, right? PS – What do you think the VA is, if not socialized medicine?

village idiot June 28, 2012 at 5:05 pm

Do you really think a voucher for insurance will keep people from using the emergency room? There is a free…..did you hear that….a free clinic just down the street from our Hospital. Anyone who is on any form of government assistance can walk in there and see a nurse practitioner. I happen to know this to be fact, because my wife’s cousin is the nurse practitioner there. Yet time after time people are in the emergency room for minor problems late at night when they could have gone to the nurse practitioner in the day. These people are ignorant, don’t care if they could save the govenment money by changing their behavior, and have no incentive to change when there is no punishment for doing the wrong thing. Look at the “stupid” story in the other thread, and go to the link and read it. These are low IQ people who won’t change behavior because of some voucher. They can’t even spell voucher. They know to go to the emergency room when they get sick, and they know it won’t cost them anything. It’s the same bunch who stayed in NO after being told to evacuate Katrina. They are stuck on stupid. Sorry for the rant, but some folks need to wake up and smell the sh!t.

radardeb June 28, 2012 at 6:36 pm

Do you always equate poor with stupid? Are all poor people stupid? How about people who have been out of work for over a year and can’t afford their COBRA payments? Your neighborhood is lucky to have a free clinic. Not all places do, and the only recourse for the poor is to use the ER. Presumably the ER can now turn people away for routine health care if they have a voucher entitling them to see a regular doctor. I have no problem with that.

As far as the comment on VA benefits being repayment for people serving their country, fine. But a guy who serves 4 years on a base as a quartermaster or some such job – is he really entitled to a lifetime of free care? That’s not much different than a congressmen who serves one term and gets a full pension. Something is out of whack there.

Yes, working people pay into Social Security and Medicare. Check out the statistics – the average person will collect 3-4x what he paid in. That’s why these programs are in trouble. So, yes, they are partially welfare for the elderly.

And where was the hue and cry over our lost liberties and characterization as socialized medicine when Bush passed the Senior Drug Program (unfunded, of course)??? Not a peep from the same crowd who are now so outraged over Obamacare.

Consistency, people.

village idiot June 28, 2012 at 10:13 pm

Did you even bother going to the Thursday thread and reading the story on stupid, low IQ people? Or even read what I wrote? From your response, apparently not. One can be poor and out of work and not be ignorant. In the interest of fairness, here’s what I said:

“These people are ignorant, don’t care if they could save the govenment money by changing their behavior, and have no incentive to change when there is no punishment for doing the wrong thing. Look at the “stupid” story in the other thread, and go to the link and read it. These are low IQ people who won’t change behavior because of some voucher. They can’t even spell voucher. They know to go to the emergency room when they get sick, and they know it won’t cost them anything. It’s the same bunch who stayed in NO after being told to evacuate Katrina. They are stuck on stupid. Sorry for the rant, but some folks need to wake up and smell the sh!t.”

Do these people sound like someone who has been out of work and can’t make their COBRA payment. Most of these people have never held a job. They think a cobra is a cool tattoo. Don’t play dumb and pretend you don’t know the people I’m referring to. Some of your other statements were just plain nonsense. Libertarians and conservatives were very critical of Bush’s drug program, and his other spending as well.

sw't tater June 29, 2012 at 11:41 am

COBRA is a big joke. When my DH was forced out of his job, the COBRA payments were going to be 1600$ for the two of us…on no income for the first 7 months then got short term disability…ect..ect..JUST Where was that money supposed to come from? My rich Uncle that was in the” poor house”? No not all poor people are stupid. NOT everyone uses the ER like a clinic, just the mentally challenged and the ones who have made their choice to be dependent on society.
The cheapest health plans are advertized at 30$ a day. 5$ a day I would have to cut/and radically reduce our groceries to pay for…and then pay the co-pays. Then I would not be able to afford the medical care I have now, because all my $$ would be going to the insurance co… ( OH yes! you can join a religous health co-op.Most of those run about 250 $ per adult.). that gets you out of Obama care… Well I pay in full now! I use natural products and go to the PCP only if I think I can’t fix it myself.The only time I went to the ER in my life, they admitted me because it couldn’t be treated as an out patient….and those bills are paid….Once I had insurance and once I had been off work for 6 weeks with no insurance. Routinely our family of two does not fall into any category that is for the ‘poor”…we have too much regular income for that, but live well below those who receive regular assistance. as for the Veterans programs….those who fought and supported our troops in every conflict/war deserve our very best, not the crap of the lowest care that our government can contract, with the least effective meds… we done been there too. So no point in going to the Va, especially if you rec’d nerve damage form ‘NaM…because “you can’t prove” where you got the pain…40 years later!!

ParaB June 29, 2012 at 3:37 pm

There is a huge difference between a veteran and a congressman. Most people don’t have the guts to raise their right hand and serve their country. When you enter the military you serve where THEY need you, not where you want. So stateside base or Iraq, they are serving their country. And as far as permanent health care, they EARNED it compared to those 3rd generation welfare pieces of crap! Better find someone else to bitch about and leave the VA benefits alone.

JET July 3, 2012 at 3:01 pm

CONGRESSMAN vs VET
One signed on the dotted line, he will defend the constitution with his life if necessary. The other gets a pension free for life and does not even pay into Social security because he is above that kind of thing.
WE could give what RetardDEB is smokng to the illegal with the sore throat and he would forget what planet he is on let alone the country he is draining resourcs from.

JP in MT June 29, 2012 at 6:45 pm

I’m a little frosted my some of these complaints, so if my comment bother you…

If you want the same benefits that the Veteran’s get, why didn’t you serve? After all it’s been an all volunteer service since 1975.

I worked security at an emergency room. Although I didn’t count the instances, between 9 PM and 3 AM the majority of the patients who came in could have gone to the clinic that was about a mile away during the day. Young parents which small children with an earache for the last 9 hours or a fever that has gone of for as long. Listening to conversations where these young people didn’t want to go to the doctor and miss their TV show! There were people who we knew by first name who kept coming back for the same thing, week after week. If just these people would have gone to the clinic, the emergency room traffic would have been halved!

I can empathize with those who issues due to the cost of healthcare. However I must ask what you are doing to change your income? There are many ways to earn additional income, but they won’t attack you while you are whining on your couch.

I’ve been around for a while and I personally am tired of people complaining that they don’t have my lifestyle, but are/were unwilling to do what I do/did. Life is a “do it to yourself” project. If you don’t like the results of your decisions, CHANGE, make different decisions!

Charlie (NC) June 30, 2012 at 5:47 am

JP, you are exactly right about the abuse of hospital
emergency services. Our hospital and several in this region found something of a solution to that. They opened their own urgent care clinic in a building next door to the hospitals emergency dept. When folks come into the ED demanding treatment for an ear ache or minor sprain or bronchitis they are refered across the street. The clinic is open from early morning to fairly late at night. If it’s not open the folks are welcome to sit in the ED waiting room until the clinic opens.

That way the ED is free to treat true emergencies that come in. If the ED staff gets caught up in the wee hours they can choose to treat someone waiting for the clinic to open if they like.

Another abuse I’m hearing here is the rescue squads. I keep an emergency scanner turned on all the time. I hear folks calling the rescue squad because they have a tooth ache or they are constipated. You wouldn’t believe it.
These EMT techs that work at the resque squads are mostly volunteer. So they get to work full time at a job to earn a living to pay the taxes to run the rescue squad they volunteer for all for the high privaledge of helping the scum bags that abuse the system. The sad thing is that these folks that abuse the system think they are “entitled” to the services.

Cosmolined June 28, 2012 at 5:10 pm

radardeb:
The part about the VA demands a response. The VA is repayment for the folks who sacrificed for this country.
(I think these days, duty to one’s country is an outdated
term. It only applied when our country was honorable
and worthy of the sacrifice of our Heroes.) Cos

village idiot June 28, 2012 at 5:53 pm

And yeah, whatever did happen to personal responsiblity, radardeb? Being given a voucher at the taxpayer’s expense is hardly what I would call personal responsiblity. As for your silly comments on SS and Medicare, it is the refuge of a scoundrel to criticize people for getting benefits they have PAID for their entire life, even if that person thinks the programs are socialistic. And no, the VA is not socialized medicine.

sw't tater June 29, 2012 at 11:50 am

Oh I forgot…. to inject … my DH’s health care costs us 50% of our total income now, for 7 months of the year…and has been increasing since the legislation went thru.Some of Dh’s meds are up this year by 500%, and those are generic. Now tell me who profits by this drug care mandate? So much for reducing costs..just put it on the backs of the disabled and seniors.
…..and just wait til in Jan of 2014 when those checks you receive for disability and SS drop by the other 300$ that they will be taking out for your medical care..(.currently it is about 100$, but will rise to $396)

Omo Bob June 29, 2012 at 3:31 pm

…And VA care is NOT free, there is no monthly fee, but we pay every time we receive services…

Gwen June 28, 2012 at 6:14 pm

We are a small 2 person business and have paid for our own health insurance for 20 years in Massachusetts. For 16 years, health insurance was a substantial but bearable cost for us. We have always taken very good care of our health and have no self-inflicted health problems such as smoking, obesity, drug addiction, etc. As a matter of fact, our strongest belief is personal responsibility.

Once universal health care passed in our state, our premiums started going up $200/month every year without fail, and now health insurance is a full 25% of our income. Every spare dime we have now goes to health insurance — we constantly scrounge just to pay our health insurance. We have limited options to buy insurance from only 4 companies in this state, and obviously, they are price-fixed to within $50 of each other on every plan. Our plan is the cheapest available. We cannot qualify for the state plan because we are not poor enough. We know we are clearly not the intended beneficiaries of universal health care.

There were many other options available to “fix” the health care problems in our country besides socialism. One critical problem is the screwed-up situation where you aren’t allowed to know what certain procedures cost, and you have to buy things before you know what they cost. For example, my dr. prescribes an x-ray and sends me where he wants to send me; I cannot get anyone to tell me what that x-ray will cost, or if I might be able to find one cheaper somewhere else; I have to go get the x-ray where he tells me, and then that company sends a bill to my insurance company, and then they tell me what the price was, what they are willing to pay, and how much I have to pay. What other business on earth is allowed to function that way? Would you buy windows from my company without knowing what they cost, or without being allowed to shop any of my competitors for a better deal? There should be total transparency in knowing what every single procedure or process is going to cost, and we should be allowed to “shop” doctors, hospitals, etc. Another good fix would simply be to allow people to shop from any insurance company in America, instead of limiting it in certain states like they do now.

Obamacare actually REMOVES personal responsibility. You don’t want to work? You don’t want to quit smoking or taking drugs or killing your liver with alcohol? You don’t want to stop eating and get so enormous it takes a crane to lift your dead body out of your house? FINE — somebody else will now foot the bill for your medical problems! And it will be those of us who take personal responsibility very seriously.

As a society, we should try to take care of those who, through no fault of their own, need medical help: soldiers, people born with serious illnesses or problems, old people who are suffering the natural, unavoidable illnesses of old age. But that doesn’t mean we owe care to every person who lives in this country, regardless of why they need help.

I feel truly sorry for my fellow Americans in the other states who are now going to have to go through what we go through every month, struggling to pay gigantic health insurance bills. Companies are going to drop health care and eat the fines and people are all going to have to pay it on their own like we do. There will be no more vacations, no more new cars (I could afford 6 monthly car payments for my one monthly health care premium), no more new computers or bicycles for the kids, no more anything for the vast responsible middle class; we will be the ants working our asses off to provide benefits for all the grasshoppers.

worrisome June 28, 2012 at 8:22 pm

Nicely written Gwen! Well done~ and couldn’t agree with you more!

riverrider June 29, 2012 at 8:12 am

how are you going to use you “voucher” when no doctor will work for the peanuts obamacare pays them? and if they do, i don’t want them working on me. now, if i have to count oc benefits as income, won’t that take me above the “poverty level” and negate any benefits i might receive from other programs?????

TomFish June 28, 2012 at 10:11 pm

I agree with some of what you said…but…

Who would be the ones to decide who should get help..you mentioned soldiers and the very sick among others. Would there be a panel to decide who should get help and who isn’t sick/poor/rich enough to qualify? Didn’t the right call those “death panels”?

And, who do you suppose currently pays to crane that fat, dead dude out of his house? We do. And I don’t get why people won’t admit that fact…the cost and expense will always be there to those of us that play by the rules…so, isn’t it better to get more of those people to pay their share? I don’t care if they call it a tax or a mandate or a hole in the wall, the more people that share the burden, i.e., pay for health insurance, the better (of course, this assumes that a responsible party is overseeing the receipts of those added revenues, but that is another argument).

To me, personal responsibility that you mention, means that everyone needs to take responsibility for the costs they incur. Shouldn’t that mean that they would therefore need to purchase their own damn insurance, like the rest of us? We’re all going to die and we’re all going to need medical care. Why should only the people that are willing to purchase medical insurance foot the bill? If people want to be deadbeats, they currently can, Gwen! Seems like to me, being conservative takes a different context when it comes to mandated healthcare….wouldn’t a true conservative want to only pay their own way and let everyone else pay their own way? Logically, then, requiring everyone to do so would reduce the amount of taxpayer expense from the deadbeats…..which I believe amounts to roughly 20 billion dollars a year in the U.S.

Why do “true conservatives” not want everyone to pay for their medical costs, by having their own insurance? That’s my question.

village idiot June 29, 2012 at 11:24 am

Hi TomFish, how’s it going? Watched The Princess Bride Monday night and thought about you. LOL. As for ObamaCare, I have a series of problems with it. So far as I’m concerned it’s not the provence of government to force me to buy something I don’t want. I do believe the government should provide medical care for the disabled and poor, and it does so through Medicaid. Elderly people already have Medicare. Rather than reforming programs that already exist and cutting costs, we get ObamaCare instead, which is going to increase costs dramatically. Small businesses like Gwen’s, which have a small number of employees, are going to fold and throw more people out of work. These folks will get free health insurance from ObamaCare. In many cases, these workers were young people who don’t have medical problems and could buy cheap insurance. For instance, my DIL provides catastrophic insurance for her employees(she owns a spa) who are all very young and it’s pretty cheap, but under ObamaCare she cant’ afford to provide insurance at all. She told her employees yesterday that they will need to become contract employees and will be responsible for their own insurance if ObamaCare goes into effect. This will in reality be a cut in income, and they will either have to raise prices or quit. My DIL doesn’t want her prices to go up, so you get the picture. It’s a crap sandwich, and it will have a huge negative effect on the economy. I’m not sure most people realize how many jobs in this country are provided by small businesses just barely holding on as it is.

Accounting tricks like $500 billion dollars of fake Medicare cuts and using 10 years of revenue against 4 years of costs were used to show ObamaCare would save money. I guarantee you that ObamaCare will cost way more than advertised, increase unemployment, reduce tax receipts and lead to rationing of medical care. Of course, that’s why I prep. Because I know that government is taking away my freedom and choices at every turn. There are 2700 pages in the ObamaCare law, and I tried to read it. I couldn’t. After the bureaucrats get through, it will be more like 27,000 pages of regulations. This whole thing just doesn’t feel like progress to me. Look at what’s going on in Europe, and you see our future. We are much more like Spain and Italy than Germany.

TomFish June 29, 2012 at 2:42 pm

Hi V I….our little town just fixed up the old movie theater and are showing Princess Bride on the “bigscreen” on Sunday :o)

Gwen June 29, 2012 at 1:25 pm

Hi TomFish,

It isn’t exactly true that taxpayers pick up the bill for the fat dead guy in the crane under the old system, or for the dead heroin addict out in the ER lobby either. Hospitals and medical facilities are not directly re-imbursed from the government for their losses; they write them off to bad debt or claim them as charitable deductions, just like all the other businesses in America. Here’s a link about it:

http://www.modernhealthcare.com/article/20120106/blogs01/301069983#

Now, however, taxpayers will have to pay it all. Here in Massachusetts, here is how it works. Everybody is required to have health care, period, or be fined. However, if you are at a low income level, or an illegal alien, you are put on the state plan, Commonwealth Care, where you might pay a $40 premium (vs. $700 for somebody who isn’t poor). Many people pay nothing at all. Obviously, that $40 doesn’t come close to covering your true medical expenses, so the state, directly using our tax dollars, pays all the rest of it for you. By June 2011, enrollment in Commonwealth Care was 342,000 people at an annual expense of $1.35 billion (the original projections were for the program to ultimately cover approximately 215,000 people at a cost of $725 million). NO MORE BAD DEBT for the hospitals to write off as private companies; now the taxpayer directly pays all that bad debt for the medical facilities.

As for a “true conservative” wanting everybody to pay their own way, I agree with you more than you know, and wouldn’t actually want to carry that discussion to its logical conclusion on a forum like this. But I accept that others might have different opinions from me, and that their opinions have value, and that we live in a society of many people, and seeing other people’s sides and compromise are necessary for civilization. So we have to help others to some extent. As for who decides who gets helped, I think we already have several programs in place that seem to work fairly well, like the VA Hospital, Medicare, Medicaid, etc.

In addition, as another example of my hypocrisy-free true conservatism, I think I made it clear that in my opinion, I think the “fix” for our health insurance problems should have been addressed directly in the private sector, by forcing medical establishments to directly compete in the market place for many of their services. Riddle me this: I recently had to get an occupational physical to qualify to drive a school bus. I called my primary care physician and talked to the secretary off the record. She told me that, if my insurance paid for my physical, then the doctor’s office would charge $300 (they wouldn’t). If I wanted to pay my doctor directly without submitting an insurance claim, the cost would be $175. Then she told me, go to this place in town and they charge only $100 for physicals. Finally, the bus company itself sent me to yet another place where I got the physical for $75. What the hell is that all about? It tells me that EVERYBODY is screwing us, that’s what it tells me. Still — if all of us could regularly get pricing information like that on eveything, these places would all have to compete, and medical expenses would come way down.

charlie (NC) June 29, 2012 at 7:21 pm

Our local hospital has a charitable foundation to help defray the cost of indigent care. People in the community and employees of the hospital make contributions to it.
Once and a while someone who was cured at the hospital will make a sizeable donation. Even with that they write off huge sums every year. Ours started out as a county hospital but it’s well managed and now is it’s own entity and recieves no subsidies from the county, state or feds except for medicare and medicade funds that it earns.
Something else folks need to know. Medicare and Medicade don’t always pay their bills. The hospital or doctor might send them a bill for a $1000.00 service and the gov’t might send them a check for $275 or so and tell them to take it or else. The insurance companies do the same thing but not to such extremes. The only folks that pay the full tab are folks that pull out their check book and pay for serviced recieved.

village idiot June 28, 2012 at 10:32 pm

Gwen, that was a brilliant expose of the costs and lack of choices in government-run health care. And an explanation of why it doesn’t work as intended. My DIL’s partner told her today that her DH will have to close up their Dairy Treat if ObamaCare goes through. He has 6 employees, they change from month to month, and he wouldn’t make any money if he had to pay insurance on them, not counting the paperwork and red tape involved. They are barely holding on as it is. Millions more are in the same boat.

TomFish June 29, 2012 at 10:25 am

You might want to tell them to keep the Dairy Treat open. With six employees, not 50 or more, they are not required to provide insurance. Plus, most businesses have at least a month or two waiting period to get insurance….I’ve had to wait as long as a year to get coverage at two different workplaces. I seriously doubt the folks at the dairy treat are currently providing any type of coverage for these folks, nor would they need to under the affordable care act.

village idiot June 29, 2012 at 11:38 am

Good to know because they were certainly confused, I’ll pass the word on to them. Does that mean the government will now provide these folks with free health insurance? Or will they pay for it themselves?

TomFish June 29, 2012 at 2:39 pm

I think there is a LOT of confusion out there…and that is frustrating to me…so many different spins. If I understand your question right, the employees would need to pay for it themselves – probably like they do already? Although I’ve heard that small bus can get a tax cut or some type of offsetting savings for providing coverage…I don’t know if/how that will affect businesses with a small number of employees.

Soggy Prepper June 29, 2012 at 12:09 am

Well said Gwen. Agreed!

Nessie June 29, 2012 at 9:24 am

Thank You Gwen
I cannot fathom why people don’t understand, or perhaps care about, the inevitable outcome. Your excerpt here should be printed and broadcast all over the nation.

TomFish June 29, 2012 at 10:30 am

The outcome being what, Nessie?

That millions of people that cannot currently get decent coverage will be able to?
That facing year after year of increases in my insurance premium, along with year after year increases in co-pays and deductibles will be diminished?
That everyone will be expected to pay their fair share?

If you ask me, this is good legistlation that simply doesn’t go far enough. It’s time to stop protecting the insurance companies at the expense of those of us that keep handing them more and more money and get less and less for it.

village idiot June 29, 2012 at 11:59 am

I’m not trying to be facetious in any way, TomFish, but do you really believe that ObamaCare is going to improve anything? That it will give the results it promises? That it will be more cost effective? That premiums won’t go up? That your co-pays and deductibles will go down? When you give 30+ million people free insurance, you can bet they are going to use the hell out of it, and costs will increase for all of us. In my entire life, and I’m not young, I’ve never seen a major govenment program get smaller, or operate as advertised. YMMV, but clue me in if you know of one.

charlie (NC) June 29, 2012 at 1:48 pm

Ladies and Gentlemen. Let me reframe this whole debate for you. I’ve already stated that this law is about control more than health care but within the healthcare context there is another purpose.
Medicare is going broke. Old folks are living too long (for the actuary tables) and it’s screwing up the governments plans. They have to get young folks in the system to help pay the bills. It’s the same ponzi scheme that just bankrupted Stockton CA and will soon break the rest of the country and most of the civilized world. Wrap your mind about it and let’s get back to prepping while we still have time!

Within 5 years, if Obamacare stands, they will find a way to morph it all into one national healthcare fund. Single payer is the term but that single payer is all of the American taxpayers.

TomFish June 29, 2012 at 2:34 pm

No, I know….trusting government to fix and run anything can be a crapshoot. But, having seen and been on the short end of the healthcare stick all of my life, I do believe that this is a start to a better way. It’s certainly not a finished product and much more will need to be done, but something had to give…insurance/med costs are way to out of hand and the expenses for uninsured would have continued to explode, which is a recipe for disaster, IMO. Better to get SOMETHING for those that abuse the system.

axelsteve June 30, 2012 at 10:48 am

Plus how many more people will get free healthcare under mr o dream act?

Nessie June 29, 2012 at 12:59 pm

Wow TomFish…
The outcome being that this tax, that will increase exponentially, is going to be a huge burden on many American families. One of Gwen’s best points is that long term the typical family’s purchasing power and disposable income will decrease, which will cascade through the world economy.

You actually view obomacare as an individual purchasing their own insurance?! Not sure what lure they used, but you took that bait! The problem is each individual does not pay for their individual share… It’s a tax where the government will squeeze the funds out of whoever they can to cover the poor, unfortunate, lazy, unconcerned-with-their-personal-health masses. You think the poor are going to be paying their fair share?! You actually think this is going to save money?! That the government can do a better job?! Personal responsibility… A government pool is oh so personal… Maybe pelosi will do a cute little skinny dip!

Yeah, have a good weekend Pack.

Soggy Prepper June 29, 2012 at 2:27 pm

Progressivism is a disease, Liberalism is a mental disorder. Trying to explain the long term, multiple ramifications of something as devastating to American freedom, capitalism and the economy to a liberal is insane.
Jesus spoke in parables so those that were lost wouldn’t hear and understand and be held to a higher standard and increase their judgement. This to me is similar.

Tomfish, in the words of Lint Picker, “your liberal slip is showing”.

village idiot June 29, 2012 at 2:28 pm

OMG, Nessie, Pelosi doing a skinny dip made me throw up in my mouth a little bit. I would appreciate a warning next time you do something like that. LOL.

TomFish June 29, 2012 at 2:46 pm

I think that they will be starting the tax/mandate at a low level…maybe 1-300 the first years, but working all the way up to an equivalant of the price of what you would normally be paying for health insurance…then the obvious choice is to purchase health coverage.

JET July 3, 2012 at 3:16 pm

Tomfish
the 2400 pages include stuff like , you cannot charge a non citizen for coverage and cant deny him coverage on a different page. ITS LAW . someone will have to pay for it, I wont, I have been out of work for nearly 3 years.
No medical people( govt apointees) will decide if you get the hip replacemnt or the meds needed, most Canadians know this kind of , wait in line mentality. Go against the flow , vote the wrong way and see what you’ll get for coverage. The wee man behind the desk with the pen decides your fate.
IT is a tax dont be fooled.
Private insurance companies will fold and the govt will have controll over 16% of the countries GDP? Soon it will run as smooth as the DMV and the post office( they are going broke too)
Maybe you’ll get a job with uncle sam, you can decide what everyones fair share is. punish anyone with a job and then blame someone else when its not working.

JET July 3, 2012 at 3:20 pm

TOM FISH
have you read any of the bill. or just taken the word of the supreme leader its good. Follow him he has plan.
I believe he will be able to finish the job Given 4 more years.
5 trillion in 3 years is a record

michael c June 28, 2012 at 4:06 pm

I have a question – will the Obama care support the S&W retirement plan? Or is that part of Social Security?

M.D. Creekmore (a.k.a Mr. Prepper) June 28, 2012 at 4:36 pm

michael c,

Probably not probably they want to take your S&W away too… Can’t win for losing…

sw't tater June 29, 2012 at 12:38 pm

The S&W plan will be done away with the current UN treatys being signed.

charlie (NC) June 28, 2012 at 4:18 pm

You won’t be able to pay “out of pocket” for minor problems. The doctors will be prohibited from accepting your payment. There will
be some sort of IRS or government rep in the healt care facility that you’ll have to go through. The idea of the whole law is not to provide you with health care but to force everyone into “the system”. The only way around it will be to find a rouge health care provider that will take cash. That’s just my opinion but I suspect that’s the way it will turn out.
They want the majority of the population beholding to the government and afraid of the government. Subjects … not citizens.

M.D. Creekmore (a.k.a Mr. Prepper) June 28, 2012 at 4:33 pm

“They want the majority of the population beholding to the government and afraid of the government. Subjects … not citizens.”

That is also the reason that they don’t like self-reliant people.

worrisome June 28, 2012 at 4:48 pm

There is much wrong with this plan. Starting with the choice that businesses small and large will have to make for 2014.
1. All employees must agree to continue with the businesses health coverage if it is offered………..or the business will not be able to offer it.
2. Employees in the lower wage brackets from say 8 -12 per hour, can be excluded and turned out on their own to fend for themselves in the Obama Exchange world or face the option of being taxed to not have insurance. The first year……….the tax fee will be one of two things 1% of the total earnings or $95 whichever is more………Fees and taxes increase from there.
3. If the business makes the choice to continue their plan and it is “too rich of a benefit plan” then employees will have to pay income taxes on the coverage. Standard plans as of today will be too rich compared to what is being offered on the exchanges.
4. The businesses, all of them will be making the choice of what is the least expensive option. To continue coverage for the employees or to pay the tax/fine for not having any insurance per employee, which ever is cheaper . That decision may not come for each firm until just 30-60 days ahead of their enrollment period as the carriers don’t release new premium numbers until very shortly before renewal date. This leaves employees being dumped out onto the exchanges with a very short window of timeto make decisions on what to get and often with limited knowledge of how insurance even works. The term for what is going to happen in late 2013 and early 2014 is a clusterf…!
4. There are several items in the plan that have been hidden.
Sales tax on homes.
The doubling of education loans that they are presently fighting over and have now put off making a decision on until this time next year…way past the election. Student loans have been in the neighborhood of 3.5% or so, ObamaCare has built in an increase to
6.5 +/-% and are now acting like it “just happened” out of thin air and are trying very hard not mention that the reason for the increase is because it was mandated by this stupid 2700 page tome!
They also stuck a tax in there on medical devices. You need a pacemaker? Pay sales tax. Need a new knee? pay sales tax.
5. Then we have the social issues. What are the limits going to be on the charges the hospitals and doctors can charge and as of this reading many doctors are contemplating whether they will even stay in the business. We are short physicians and medical personnel now…..that is why we have what is called the “brain drain” at the teaching hospitals in the nation……These hospitals scout the world for the best minds they can get and then incentify the daylights out of them to get them to come to this country to learn and earn. And then there is just the mass of folks coming into the system, some 30 million more folks……….long waiting lines anybody?

Add this mess of costs to individuals trying to get by now in this country. If left to the devices of the present administration, Bush tax cuts will be gone Jan 1 2013, the inheritance taxes are going back to Federal Highway Robbery status, the Fed borrowing is going to further inflate cost of everyday items; state taxes going up because of union inflated pension benefits, and I am sure this wolf pack can name many more issues of impact on their own incomes than I have here. The future is the light at the end of the tunnel and that light is a train of destruction coming right at us.

Soggy Prepper June 29, 2012 at 12:21 am

Thanks for that run down Worrisome.
I can’t wait to find out all the other ‘treasures’ this obummercare health tax will bestow upon us.

So what happens if someone is out of work and unemployment has run out. That person is unable to pay the health tax. So does that person go to jail? Gona need a lot more jails.

To me it’s like America is on her knees right now in the dirt. There is a gun at the back of her head. In November we find out if the trigger gets pulled or not.

Get everyone you know (that actually has a brain and understands what’s at stake) to Vote this November. America has an expiration date now.

axelsteve June 30, 2012 at 10:51 am

Soggy prepper. We have the prisons. They are the fema camps. and there will be drones overhead.

charlie (NC) June 28, 2012 at 4:57 pm

Precisely MD. Let me paint a scenario. Let’s say someone, maybe one of the Wolf Pack, has a home or camp that is paid for. They have a well, solar panels, wood heat, a big garden, some livestock and a good, running fishing stream on their land. Now lets say our Wolf Packer looses his job or maybe is self employed and can no longer make a living doing what they used to do. Our Wolf Packer thinks it over and says: “well you know I don’t need a job. I have no bills. I can live off my land and I have enough produce, eggs, etc. left over to barter for what I might need. I can work odd jobs during the year for enough cash to pay my property tax and it won’t be enough for me to have any tax liability so I’m in the clear. Plus I’m middle aged and in good health and I haven’t been to a doctor in 10 years and the last time I went he told me I was in great shape.

Life goes on for a couple of years and everything is fine but suddenly our Wolf Packer is bit by a Copperhead and over his objections a well meaning neighbor calls 911 and Wolf Packer is taken to the hospital.

Now the inquistion begins.

Where is your insurance card?

I don’t have one.

Why not?

I have no money. I have no job. I’m healthy and I didn’t think I needed insurance and I don’t need it now if you’ll let me out of here.

Well how do you survive?

I live off my land.

WHAT??? How do you do that? Well I grow all my food and I fish in my stream and I heat with wood and I have solar power for what electricity I need.

Why Mr. Packer YOU CAN’T DO THAT. I’ll be right back. I must go and get the hospital’s “Affordable Healthcare Act Co-ordinator”.

I don’t need to go on. You can figure out the rest. From that day on you’ll be forced to do one of 3 things. Claim you are poor and go on Gov’t assistance. Get a job you don’t want. Or, go to a re-education ….. errrr….. I mean go to jail. On top of that since the hospitals “Afordable Health Care Act” coordinator is funded by the IRS you’ll soon be getting your audit notice. You did pay taxes on the value of those veggies and eggs you produced didn’t you?

worrisome June 28, 2012 at 6:56 pm

If you follow this to its most unreasonable end? They will eventually understand that you are growing your own food, hunting and fishing, propelling you own power so they will then start taxing you on the equivalency of what you are doing for yourself. Example, you generated the equivalent of 1,201. of electricity so we want 10% in taxes. Going to be such a joyful world if we let this go on……….

charlie (NC) June 28, 2012 at 7:31 pm

Precisely Worrisome. It’s already happening with restrictions on
what folks can grow on their own land and what they can give to charities. (no non USDA inspected food to soup kitchens already)

Did you know that the first use….errr… abuse of the commerce clause was in the 40′s when they went after a farmer for planting wheat in excess of his USDA allotment. He had some extra land and planted a small field, not for market but for use to feed the farm animals that fed his family. The court said that was an abuse of interstate commerce.

Read the commerce clause some time. For the life of me I can’t see a thing in it that allows them to do what they do now or did then. There is a whole new movement in the country called the Tenth Ammendment Project. They have a web site. Check it out. They are calling for the states to nullify illegal acts by the feds under the commerce clause.

http://www.tenthamendmentproject.com/

charlie (NC) June 28, 2012 at 7:49 pm

More on 10th ammendment nullification. You might think it will never work but there are already a couple of dozen cases/states that have done so with no reprocussions so far from the feds. A couple of years ago Holder said he was going to crack down on “medical marijuana” sales but they never went after the 10 states that allow it. Since then 4 more states have passed “home grown for medical use” laws and the feds haven’t tried to stop it. There were some other examples spelled out in a film I watched but I don’t remember now what they were.

riverrider June 29, 2012 at 8:22 am

c, ahhh actually they have gone after medicinal maryjane dealers and growers in kali. it was on 60 minutes i believe. now that chicago has decriminalized it, that may change. we’re all going to need to smoke a dooby before this is over.

charlie (NC) June 28, 2012 at 7:58 pm

this is the site I meant to link for the 10th ammendment.
I think maybe the other link is to a related site.

http://tenthamendmentcenter.com/

Copperhead July 3, 2012 at 7:00 pm

Very true and well written, charlie (NC). I could pretty much live like that right now if I had to, but….gov. is always there to step in! As a farm owner, the gov. is already there to tell me what and when to plant.

But let it be known, I would never bite a WolfPack member! :)

Michele June 28, 2012 at 5:07 pm

Just curious, but what are they going to do with mothers of 4 children who make around $10 and hour? Food for the kids and a roof over their head or medical care – hmmm – what would they choose? So, she selfishly choses to not to sleep in a cardboard box with her 4 kids and give them food to eat, and can’t pay the tax. I suppose it’s prison for such a lawbreaker.

charlie (NC) June 28, 2012 at 7:35 pm

No she’ll just be forced into the welfare system. She’ll get a check to stay home with them and a raise to make some more babbies. That’s what a large portion of our population does now.
I read somewhere recently where a family of 4 would have to have income in excess of 60,000 to exceed the benefits that a single mom with 3 kids can get on welfare. Those numbers might not be exactly right but it’s close.

TomFish June 28, 2012 at 10:34 pm

She should pay an amount to be determined. She shouldn’t get anything for free. She should be in a huge group of people that pay a premium and then have the opportunity to receive insurance reimbursement for their medical expenses. Some use a lot, some use very little, that is how insurance works.

Not trying to be heartless, but as a liberal, I don’t get why the rest of us should have to pick up the bill for that Momma. Maybe she should move back in with the folks. Or get another job. Why should I foot the bill when she keeps running up medical expenses without having insurance?

Gwen June 29, 2012 at 2:01 pm

This lady is actually THE intended beneficiary of Obamacare. In Massachusetts, and now in the rest of your states, this lady will be in a huge group of people, as TomFish says, who pay a premium (practically non-existant) for health insurance. And Tom has just admitted that he’s a conservative like the rest of us, because he doesn’t want to foot the bill for her medical expenses. But he is going to, because her new insurance company is the US taxpayer. These are the exact people whom Obama wanted to give insurance to, because they are the ones who vote for liberals.

sw't tater June 29, 2012 at 12:48 pm

Please NOTE; there is an exception for people in health co-op’s.Do a search… I have checked those plans..Some have a signed statement of faith that most people would not have a problem with….they would be expensive, but maybe not as expensive as being in the zone for non compliance.

Soggy Prepper June 29, 2012 at 2:09 pm

Yes, but are those going to be considered insurance under the obummermasacare? Because they are religious based and may not have things covered that the bill requires.

Did those health co-ops receive a waiver?
I looked into one about 3 years ago.
I need to look into those again and how they are now going to be effected under the new health tax law.

We’ve seriously thought of joining one of those like Samaritans purse.

Bam Bam June 28, 2012 at 5:22 pm

If you want to opt out of the mandatory clause, file an exemption as a member of one of the exempt religions. The following article has a list of religions that are exempt from the individual mandate. (Note: Muslims are not exempt; Amish and Mennonite are exempt.) Follow the link in this article for the complete list in Excel format.

http://www.factcheck.org/2010/05/dhimmitude-and-the-muslim-exemption/

SurvivorDan June 28, 2012 at 5:32 pm

“That is also the reason that they don’t like self-reliant people.”

Damn self-reliant bastards! Spurning the Gov’t proffered hand outs! Not fighting in the bread lines like a ‘normal’ decent citizen. Not gnashing their teeth and wailing for water from the FEMA water trucks. Acting all holier-than-thou as they harvest from their own gardens and livestock. Gov’t soup kitchens too good for them? Ignoring the gov’t single payer health clinics while treating their injured and ill with natural and stockpiled remedies. The sick non-conformist reprobates!
And worst of all, they are armed and prepared to refuse to place their necks under the jackboots of government thugs!! Horrors!!!

mr June 28, 2012 at 6:03 pm

Not to sound scary, but here is my prediction. When taxes are filed by April 15, 2014 the IRS will be looking at 2013 figures so there will be no need to prove health insurance at that time (despite the fact it went into effect January 1, 2014). Come April 15, 2015 the IRS 1040 form will be asking about healthy insurance. I suspect employers will have to send an insurance verification form to employees along with their W2 form. If you can prove you have insurance then no penalty tax applies and your income taxes are configured as usual. However, if you can’t prove you have insurance then then the penalty becomes part of your total tax obligation which will be deducted from your refund. Don’t have a refund? That’s when the IRS will start sending tax bills to non-compliant citizens. There are a whole lot of people out there who insist they will not comply with this mandate. After they ignore the tax bill the IRS will up the ante by applying late penalties, making threats, etc. That will continue for a year or so. It won’t be until 2016 or later that the IRS begins sending people to the homes of those who adamantly refuse to comply with the mandate. Expect no sympathy from neighbors or the media because you will be seen as a tax evader. Even so, some will continue to defy the armed authorities who try to break down their door for the purpose of making an arrest for evading taxes. These people might not survive the encounter and some government agents might be lost in the process as well. Either way, it is then, I believe, we’ll start seeing some major revolts in this country, perhaps even civil war. That is, if Obamacare is not repealed entirely before then. This is not a threat or an indication of my own intentions, but just what I suspect is coming based on the comments of some people I know. Be prepared!

Gwen June 28, 2012 at 8:53 pm

The IRS isn’t going to risk their precious agents on dangerous and rebellious health care tax evaders. Whatever you end up owing for the penalty tax in one year, if you don’t pay the bill, they will simply take it out of your paychecks the following year. Passing the law that enabled income tax deduction was a stroke of genius, because it forever prevented Americans from not paying taxes as a form of rebellion.

Old Hillbilly June 29, 2012 at 1:01 pm

Don’t ever think the IRS will not “risk” their agents by sending them after us to collect this tax…some of us anyway. In this country we have a voluntary compliance system meaning that unless folks voluntarily file and pay their taxes, the IRS does not have sufficent manpower to enforce it. SO….what do they do? They pick out certain “offenders” to target, making it a public display in the media to scare the rest of us into filing….and this is exactly what will happen with the Obamatax. You may get lucky and get away with it or you may be one of the ones that gets made an example of.

In case you wonder how I know this, I was a revenue agent for 18 years before moving over to the “light side”. Been there, done that.

charlie (NC) June 29, 2012 at 1:40 pm

In addition to what Old Hillbilly said, the IRS just recently started hiring 16,000 additional agents. Hmmm what do you think they might want them for?

mr June 29, 2012 at 3:48 pm

The IRS may or may not be able to tell the difference between a regular income tax evader and one who is specifically intending to evade the health insurance tax. In their eyes, a tax evader is a tax evader while police assume all subjects of an arrest raid to be armed and dangerous. Do an online search with the term “arrested for tax evasion” and see how many results come up. Everyone from average citizens and business owners to big time celebrities and sports professionals have been arrested by armed officers serving warrants for tax evasion. Yes, most of then owe quite a bit in taxes so they might be the “big fish” examples intended to scare everyone else, but clearly the IRS can and does enforce tax law through the use of armed officers.

Bam Bam June 28, 2012 at 6:35 pm

Has anyone heard from Mama J today?

worrisome June 28, 2012 at 8:24 pm

No was wondering myself how she is making out with the fires, been praying!

Bam Bam June 28, 2012 at 9:25 pm

Is Mama J. from Colorado Springs?

worrisome June 29, 2012 at 10:23 am

I don’t know but she posted about a fire near her home the other day…

doctordave June 28, 2012 at 9:22 pm

What about the 45% of the population that pay no taxes ? Do they just get free insurance since they pay no taxes ? They sure won’t pay a penalty if they never file a tax form.

Soggy Prepper June 29, 2012 at 12:29 am

Most people on welfare do file taxes. And! they get a refund for each kid they spit out! How’s that for a big finger in your working class face?
So, I assume, since those on welfare already HAVE insurance like good little sheeple they will be smiled upon by the progressives and maybe given a bonus.
Illegals are another thing. They will probably get some special waiver since TDL smiled upon them by allowing them amnesty with his EO.
So good to be king. :reallyangry:

alikaat July 3, 2012 at 12:28 pm

“And! they get a refund for each kid they spit out! ”

That’s what irks me most about this whole situation. I know this is another whole can of worms, but people who cannot support themselves because they either have not bothered to learn a life-sustaining skillset or do not have the ability to learn one should not be procreating! Either they need to move to a place where they can be gainfully employed/productive, in which case their children have a chance of being so as well, or they just need to keep it in their pants. Too many people is too many people… and the gubm’t shouldn’t be encouraging non-producers to make more non-producers who will be a further drain on the entire system.
Eugenics be damned. It is just common sense. Wish there was a way to make it happen, though – reproduction is free and even the completely degenerate are capable of performing it. Can’t be legislated outside of a science fiction novel, however – and even if it could, it is probably too late to prevent what is coming down the tunnel at us.

Off my soap box.
Cat

1982MSgt June 28, 2012 at 9:31 pm

I certainly do not believe Obama Health Care will do anything except place a tax burden upon all Americans.

I do not know what in in the bill, what the heck, many in Congress don’t know either and they passed it so it must be good for everyone, right?

Don’t bet on anyone currently in the Congress, White House nor in the Supreme Court doing anything that would help middle class Americans.

So let us vote them out of office next election. Anyone currently sitting in the White House or in Congress should be voted out of office.

MENTALMATT June 29, 2012 at 12:41 am

VillageIdiot, keep giving them hell, you are truely speaking the truth, and to some that hurts. The fore fathers gave us a republic, if we can keep it. If any troll or non beliver wants to see socialism in action look at Detroit. The first major city to go bankrupt.

village idiot June 30, 2012 at 12:02 am

Thank you for your support, Matt, it means a lot to me. You have a wealth of first hand knowledge about the effects of socialistic laws and actions. Detroit is the poster child. Looks like you’ve thrown off the virus from hell, thank God. Take care of yourself out there.

Milehimama June 29, 2012 at 2:00 am

I hate to break it to you, but government healthcare does NOT prevent people from using expensive emergency rooms.

Two years ago, we had Medicaid for the children after my husband lost his job. We figured it was the only way to get our $$$ out of the system we’d been paying into for 25 years.

Anyway. Medicaid. I never went to the ER as much as I did when we were on Medicaid. First, there were TWO providers in my entire ZIP code that took Medicaid- one was a woman who got her MD in INDIA in 1970; the other wasn’t a dr at all, just a nurse practitioner. And she never had appointments. We ended up at the ER for stupid, stupid junk- like a UTI. Well, my daughter was in pain with fever and all UTI symptoms on Thursday morning- called the clinic for a sick child visit, they couldn’t (wouldn’t) fit her in until after the weekend. And Medicaid won’t cover urgent care centers. So, off to the ER. The same scenario repeated itself over and over again.

At one point the ER refused care (a tetanus shot) because Medicaid would only pay if the primary care administered it.

Guess what Obamacare is going to look like, for everyone?

I’m glad my family is more or less healthy, and I’m going to delve even deeper into home remedies, now.

JAC21 June 29, 2012 at 3:42 am

Check out this video of obama in 2008 speaking with Ellen D. on his health care reform vs hilary clintons… I don’t see how anyone can stand by a president who consistently lies the way this lame excuse for a man does..smh

http://www.mrctv.org/videos/federal-judge-cites-quotes-president-ruling-obamacare-unconstitutional

banaras July 3, 2012 at 3:25 am

They all lie constantly, it’s called politics….

Cold Warrior June 29, 2012 at 8:26 am

You can be a Government owned slave, or you can be Free.

I heard a lawyer on the radio today state that this bill gives Congress the right to tax you for any reason that they, (not you) feel is unhealthy.

They can now tax you if you smoke, drink, own a gun, (gun shot wounds cost money to repair), eat meat.

Are you a free Amertican, or are you a Government owned slave?

Hunker-Down June 29, 2012 at 9:53 am

@#$%^&*

DAC June 29, 2012 at 9:58 am

Take your anger out at the ballot box. Both parties are bad, but one party in particular has a megalomaniac streak. Sitting out of this election is not an option, every citizen (preferably legal!) needs to be registered and vote. For the ambivalent libertarians your country needs you to hold your note and vote. Yes, I’m voting GOP and yes I know not to naively trust their sudden “small government interest”. But at least they have an interest in generating idea’s that aren’t dictated from the central government.

sw't tater June 29, 2012 at 12:55 pm

Don’t worry, the illegal citizens will also vote!…and guess who will be making sure they are “registered”?

JP in MT June 29, 2012 at 11:38 am

Personally, the new health care will not effect us. However, it will effect every one around us and those that we do business will. That’s the issue for us.

I have a friend that got a letter from Medicare/Medicade. His current monthly fee is $97. That will be going to over $300.mo in 2015. He got this notice in April. Just this is going to take $200/mo from these people. For every 1 million people this happens to be that $2.4 Billion dollars will no longer be going into the local economy. Just how is this supposed to be a benefit. It also says there will be a reduction in “some” services. Don’t take my word for this; find someone on Medicare/Medicade and ask to see the letter!

bill June 30, 2012 at 9:38 pm

Question. Presently I am charged a 50% surcharge on my Health Care premium, because my chlorestral is a little high and the Health care provider says i am at risk so they charge me more. Will this remain under Obama Care.

Anthony Ryan July 14, 2012 at 9:15 pm

I would appreciate answers to questions re my personal health care situation. I am 73 living full-time in another country. I currently have Medicare A and B as primary and supplemental insurance that covers 70% of medical costs where I live. My wife, age 55, has dual citizenship and is covered by a local government health plan. If we go to the USA she will buy travel insurance. Am I going to be able to keep Medicare and my supplemental (which costs over $4,000 a year)? Is my wife going to have to pay a penalty even though she will never use US healthcare? I have a medical history of prostate cancer surgery, recurrent prostate cancer, triple by-pass, valve replacement heart surgery, a-fib problems, a knee replacement and a bad back. I’m sure my supplemental carrier would like to drop me. I now must weigh the 30% cost of local care against travel and other costs to get treated in the USA which means I only go if its really serious. How do I find out what I need to do? If nothing is going to happen for 3 or 4 years, I’ll likely have kicked the bucket anyway. Help??

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