Reorganizing after TEOTWAWKI

This guest post is by  Estar H and entry in our non-fiction writing contest .

Call me crazy, but I thoroughly believe the world as we know it will crash eventually. This conviction leads to a burning question to the prepper community — a group which aims to think ahead and prepare for the future. If you survive the end of the world as we know it, what, if anything, will you do differently to avoid getting into the same mess again?

Many preppers possess a bit of wisdom and foresight beyond that of the mainstream sheeple. For some reason, these folks can plainly see what others can’t — the handwriting on the wall. Nevertheless, preppers are a diverse group comprised of people who don’t necessarily espouse the same politics or religion. Despite that fact, this mixed bunch has reached similar conclusions. It’s a continuum between: the system has become unreliable, so don’t put all your eggs in one basket; and, the system will be the thing that attempts to destroy you. There are many theories and viewpoints represented in the mix.

I know politics and religion are cans of worms, but the current situation can’t be analyzed without talking about them. It’s a good idea to try to do this without flying off the handle. The fact is, when people form any kind of community, politics and religion come into play because that’s how people articulate key morals and ethics necessary to cooperate in community. Even anarchists and atheists are drawn into the conversation.

Our politics and religion will shape the way we respond to the current situation, and they won’t be any less important when deciding how to construct the world on the other side of the crucible. Will everybody who is left after the destruction think alike? No. So, how will we resolve differences? Agree to disagree? Hate, oppress, or shoot each other? Will we resurrect the US Constitution? What’s to stop it from getting battered again? What are you planning to do differently?

When the world as we know it is gone, something else will emerge. It will be built on the collective values, ethics, and vision of the people who survive and exercise their power. How will the new paradigm balance brute force, reason, and grace? On what basis will justice be ensured? Perhaps this is a non-issue because your particular view of eschatology anticipates that God will intervene immediately after the time of trouble, and Jesus will set up His kingdom so things will finally be right (again).

I don’t know what religions other than Christianity say about the other side of the end, or what agnostic or atheist preppers believe about it. Let’s conjecture that people will once again be exercising their human understanding of science, economics, philosophy, etc., to rebuild the world. How will we avoid making the same mistakes — the ones that got us into this mess in the first place? If you start pointing your index fingers, remember you all have three pointing back at you.

Do you really believe our present problems — the ones that have us prepping — are all somebody else’s fault, and that we have no culpability in the current scenario? If our opinions and actions are so righteous, what is stopping us from manifesting a better reality right now? Are we preppers helpless victims of circumstance?

On the other hand, if we search our hearts and admit that we have not done everything we can to create the world as we think it should be, what makes us think we will do better next time?

This contest will end on October 10 2012 – prizes include:

  • First Place : $100 Cash.
  • Second Place : $50 Cash.
  • Third Place : $25 Cash.

Contest ends on October 10 2012.

Comments

  1. We will have, I believe, a “small world” view after. I base this on a destruction of infrastructure, especially communications and transportation. Local values will prevail as survivors have pulled together to survive. Outsiders without connections or specific skills will not be welcome.

    • Not sure if I would rule out people without specific skills. I would welcome anyone who is willing to put in a hard days work and who agree with the group’s ideals. It takes a lot of manual labor to raise crops and everything.

      Who ever said religion and politics don’t mix I believe was a socialist who was trying to drive out religion from politics. A Judeo-Christian ethic and moral base is what founded our country. Remove religion and it becomes self interest and chaos as we see in every country who has come to rely on government for their religion. They say everyone is born with a sense of right and wrong and I just don’t see that anymore. I believe right and wrong is taught from day one by parents who know the difference.

      • Let’s see what some of the founding fathers thought about religion, in their own words and actions.

        http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ed_buckner/quotations.html#II

        Thomas Jefferson
        (1743-1826; author, Declaration of Independence and the Statute of Virginia for Religious Freedom; 3rd U.S. President, 1801-1809)

        I may grow rich by an art I am compelled to follow; I may recover health by medicines I am compelled to take against my own judgment; but I cannot be saved by a worship I disbelieve and abhor. (Thomas Jefferson, notes for a speech, c. 1776. From Gorton Carruth and Eugene Ehrlich, eds., The Harper Book of American Quotations, New York: Harper & Row, 1988, p. 498.)

        James Madison
        (1751-1836; principal author, U. S. Constitution and Bill of Rights; 4th U.S. President, 1809-1817)

        Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize [sic], every expanded prospect. (James Madison, in a letter to William Bradford, April 1, 1774, as quoted by Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 37.)

        Benjamin Franklin
        (1706-1790; American statesman, diplomat, scientist, and printer)

        [Benjamin] Franklin drank deep of the Protestant ethic and then, discomforted by church constraints, became a freethinker. All his life he kept Sundays free for reading, but would visit any church to hear a great speaker, no doubt recognizing a talent he himself did not possess. With typical honesty and humor he wrote out his creed in 1790, the year he died: “I believe in one God, Creator of the universe…. That the most acceptable service we can render Him is doing good to His other children…. As to Jesus … I have … some doubts as to his divinity; though it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an opportunity of knowing the truth with less trouble.” (Alice J. Hall, “Philosopher of Dissent: Benj. Franklin,” National Geographic, Vol. 148, No. 1, July, 1975, p. 94.)

        Thomas Paine
        (1737-1809; author of Common Sense; key American patriotic writer)

        All national institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian or Turkish [Muslim], appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit. I do not mean by this declaration to condemn those who believe otherwise; they have the same right to their belief as I have to mine. But it is necessary to the happiness of man that he be mentally faithful to himself. Infidelity does not consist in believing, or in disbelieving; it consists in professing to believe what he does not believe. It is impossible to calculate the moral mischief, if I may so express it, that mental lying has produced in society. When a man has so far corrupted and prostituted the chastity of his mind as to subscribe his professional belief to things he does not believe, he has prepared himself for the commission of every other crime. He takes up the profession of a priest for the sake of gain, and in order to qualify himself for that trade he begins with a perjury. Can we conceive anything more destructive to morality than this? (Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason, 1794-1795. From Paul Blanshard, ed., Classics of Free Thought, Buffalo, New York: Prometheus Books, 1977, pp. 134-135.)

        John Adams
        (1735-1826; major leader at Constitutional Convention in 1787; 2nd U.S. President , 1797-1801)

        In his youth John Adams (1735-1826) thought to become a minister, but soon realized that his independent opinions would create much difficulty. At the age of twenty-one, therefore, he resolved to become a lawyer, noting that in following law rather than divinity, “I shall have liberty to think for myself without molesting others or being molested myself.” (Edwin S. Gaustad, Faith of Our Fathers: Religion and the New Nation, San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1987, p. 88. The Adams quote is from his letter to Richard Cranch, August 29, 1756.)

        George Washington
        (1732-1799; “Father of His Country”; 1st U.S. President, 1789-1797)

        Following a tradition transmitted from Cicero, through Machiavelli, to their own contemporaries like Paine and Jefferson, the less pious men of the time saw in religion a necessary and assured support of civil society. Although guided in their own conduct by secular traditions, they felt that only religion could unite the masses and induce their submission to custom and law. So they joined their orthodox countrymen in attributing to the hero [George Washington] a deep religious devotion. (Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American Symbol, New York: The Free Press, 1987, p. 173.)

        As President, Washington regularly attended Christian services, and he was friendly in his attitude toward Christian values. However, he repeatedly declined the church’s sacraments. Never did he take communion, and when his wife, Martha, did, he waited for her outside the sanctuary…. Even on his deathbed, Washington asked for no ritual, uttered no prayer to Christ, and expressed no wish to be attended by His representative. George Washington’s practice of Christianity was limited and superficial because he was not himself a Christian. In the enlightened tradition of his day, he was a devout Deist–just as many of the clergymen who knew him suspected. (Barry Schwartz, George Washington: The Making of an American Symbol, New York: The Free Press, 1987, pp. 174-175.)

      • So true. any form of community, large or small, simply can’t work without ethics and morals on the part of everyone involved. I agree right and wrong is best taught by the close circle one grows up in. I think example is the best teacher, but by no means foolproof. Neither is punishment. I have been accused of being “Utopian” for believing that humans, who are created in God’s image, are capable of manifesting a beautiful reality if we get our heads out of our a****. But how to make it happen? Legislating morality doesn’t work. It just shoves filth under the rug. This revolution has to start with renewal of the heart and soul. I don’t know what to do about the recalcitrant. That was one of the questions I was getting at in my article. What we’re doing no obviously isn’t working.

    • Thank you for your comment JP. I agree about the local focus. In fact, being aware of talents in our area and trading goods and services locally is something we can start doing more of now. Then as now, assessing the heart condition of strangers needs to be done on a case by case basis, imo. By being hospitable some have unwittingly entertained angels and that’s not something I’d want to miss out on.

  2. Well if the choice in rebuilding our government is actually left up to us, and not by the Allied Nations/Foreign Government, I’m sure of one lesson that will carry forth is the effects of out-sourcing our work. Although, it will be difficult to maintain control while nations like China have bought so much of our current debt that we are indebted to them. So do we really believe that all of our debts and mistakes with the Federal Reserve, China, etc.. will be forgiven and forgotten once our economy finally crashes? Will we be able to restore the Old Timey America that took pride in OUR products and OUR craftsmanship from OUR people? Or will international debt collectors come for the only thing we have left: our land? Just food for thought.

    • village idiot says:

      Well, L.A. Mike, here’s the way I see it. If We the People are in charge, and someone comes here to take our land, they are going to have a tussle on their hands. Unless we are totally disarmed, and I mean nuclear here, no nation will attempt to do that. One wonders why Obama is trying to eliminate over 80% of our nuclear armaments? Not trying for a new conspiracy theory, but it makes no sense for us to disarm while Iran and No. Korea, not to mention China and Russia, are rapidly increasing their nuclear capabilities.

      • L.A Mike & Village Idiot: On the topic of US land and foreigners, I heard a theory back in the 90s that public lands are already being held as collateral for foreign debt. I have never researched this, has anybody else? Certainly foreign “persons” already own large swaths of American real estate. And the stark reality is that regulations drastically restrict what we can do on our private property. So, while being ready to protect our land from an obvious enemy, it’s surreptiously being taken anyway.

        • Taken where? It’s not like they can dig it up and carry it home. Best case they acclimate and become good neighbors. Worse case you shut them out until they give up and go home,

          • lol – Taken in the sense of a 5th Amendment legal “takings” — a play on words…where government regulations cause significant dimunition of property value and the right to do what one wants on his/her land.

  3. I think we will end up with some form of a Cormac MaCarthy ending. Without being able to perpetuate the agricultural machine of today, most people will endure only by living off of others. I don’t expect strong communities. I expect a lot of predation. There may be a few fortresses out there, but they will be more like gulags after year two.

    I guess it depends on how far things go. If it is just economic collapse, that won’t be too bad, but if it leads to civil unrest and war, the outlook for our survival is minimal. As it is, I don’t see us getting out of what’s coming without global thermonuclear war fomenting. Just too many fanatics and power mongers with their fingers on buttons. All it will take is one button getting pushed.

    • Hi Benjammin. Thanks for bringing Cormac McCarthy to my attention. Sometimes I am pitifully unaware common culture. I have heard of the title “No Country for Old Men,” but never pursued it. Just to save some research, what is the end of which he speaks? This quote from him below expresses part of what I was getting at in my post. It’s a hard question. Is there an answer?

      “If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?”
      ― Cormac McCarthy, No Country for Old Men

    • Hi Karena: I have lived in and near small rural communities (pop. 280 or less) for quite a few years. Re the grocery store – there won’t be much to sell or steal after a week. When Mount St. Helens blew, the shelves at Safeway were already half bare after three days of trucks being unable to get through. As far as the character of rural people: On the light side, many of my rural acquaintances are more survival oriented than city folks as part of their natural lives. They work hard at one or two jobs and/or own one or two businesses. They hunt, fish, garden, bake, and know how to fix stuff, and will shoot people who come to loot their supplies when the shtf. As self-reliant as they seem, they are also heavily dependent on fossil fuels for everything that supports life, and a good number of them work for some kind of government agency or have incomes tied to govt. funds and grants. Who knows what they will do when their backs are up against the wall? On the dark side is a significant rural population — and I would agree with your 75% number, even more in some places — who are on personal assistance of some kind, many on disability, many addicted to something legal or illegal. Some of them will probably allow themselves to be herded into shelters in cities. Some will be taken in by family and friends. Others, esp. those reliant on legal or illegal substances to maintain, may commit suicide. Some will become looters and thieves. Once a few of them get shot, they will probably slink to cities with easier pickings, (after they steal some gas). People escaping the cities with either good or nefarious motives will have to deal with them along the way. My question really is — after all these birth pangs are over, what’s the plan?

  4. I’m also thinking a “local community” will emerge with outsiders being excluded unless they have some great skill like drs, dentist, etc. In a community where there are four generations of families who have lived in this rural area and married into surrounding families it will be tight knit. I’ve often thought this about the “local” children going to school in the “local” church where the community hires a teacher and everyone in the group pays into the salary. When I see photos of the school children from the 40’s and 50’s on display it makes me think we will go back to that.

    Any thoughts on what will happen in a small rural areas STSHTF and the SS, welfare, disability and food stamps stop? We have a small locally owned grocery store, dollar general and post office. I’m sure looters will clean those out quickly since law enforcement will be stretched thin. I would say that 75% of the town residents are on some kind of government assistance. I’ve wondered if they would even bother coming out of town where we live or just move on to the bigger cities within 15 miles to find what they need at Wal-Mart and other more visible targets.

    • karena,
      Although people seemed to be concerned (overly IMHO) about people from the cities coming into the rural areas looking for resources, if you look at the history of such events, most unprepared people generally head into the cities. It’s a knee jerk reaction of sorts, but seems to be prevalent in most scenarios. True country folk who have their own means of production, gardens, livestock, bees, fruit trees, etc, generally also have a relationship with others of like mind and situation, so a natural bartering and support structure seems to exist. Most country transplants unless they’ve gotten into the self reliance lifestyle and gone out of their way to join the rural community still have a tendency to think of the resources as being available in the cities, since this is where all of the retail outlets from Wal-Mart to the large malls, the better restaurants, etc. are located, and in this case without some preparation and forethought is the place to which they will naturally tend to migrate,

      • village idiot says:

        Yes and no, Ohio Prepper. Some history indeed shows people headed into the cities looking for jobs and resources. The Great Depression here in the US saw this kind of movement of people, as soup kitchens were set up to feed the hungry, and the government tended to be more active in the larger cities.

        A hyperinflationary event with a currency collapse might be different. I think the hyperinflation in Germany after WWI saw numerous examples of people in cities raiding the countryside looking for resources, and a big increase in property crimes. And if I understand ferfal, a former resident of Argentina who runs a blog, it was not unusual for gangs to head out into the countryside to loot, kidnap and rape after the currency collapsed there a few years ago. Same for Zimbabwe, where government agents and provocateurs, encouraged attacks on white farms in rural areas. I’m very concerned that we have the same type people in our government who would encourage just such attacks. There is a racial element in this country who are encouraged to think; by the public schools, the government, and the media; that all their problems and troubles are caused by the white man or the rich man, and that nothing is their fault. Given our D-OJ, and other agencies of which I’m sure you are familiar, I have no confidence in them, and consider them capable of unleashing evil of the worst kind. I’ll take my tinfoil hat off now.

        • Ohio Prepper & Village Idiot: The scenario re Post WWI Germany and recent situations is quite interesting in that it kills two birds with one stone, as far as the elitists’ goals. Gangs causing trouble in the city can be removed and recruited to attack rural freedom lovers. In order to predict how such a strategy would play out in the modern US requires analysis of numerous factors. For one thing, urbanized Americans are seriously detached from — thus scared and off balance — in a rural setting, unless they have been sensitized to country living somehow. They are completely afraid of wild animals, and if the grid is down, they won’t know how to live. They would have to go through a training program, which is maybe what happened in the instances you cite, V.I.

        • To further VI’s point, in Greece as in Spain young people who left to find jobs in the cities years ago are returning to their family homes in the country to try and make a living by farming.

          • Hunker-Down says:

            2-3 days ago Glenn Beck said they are currently selling their heirloom gold to buy food, inflation is so bad.

      • Ohio Prepper, Oh gosh, I hope you are right. I’ll hold on to that with all my might and sleep better nights.

        And – BTW – the jerk that lives on our drive, his house just went pending – so pray hard that the house sale goes through for him, and we get a another nice country person in his place – then this area will truely be heaven!

      • Hunker-Down says:

        When the gangs from the city start raiding the countryside, they will probably be on motorbikes due to fuel supply issues.
        My question is; will a .223 stop a motorbike?

        • village idiot says:

          Hunker-Down, I like a heavier weapon than a .223 to penetrate an engine block, even one on a motorcycle. A 12 ga. with slugs will do a number on a motorcycle. Do like cos does and have 1 slug followed by 1 load of buckshot. Stop the bike with the slug, stop the thug with the buckshot. Sounds like a plan.

          • Hunker-Down says:

            village idiot,

            We have one of those and the ‘stuff’ to assemble as you described. I would like to make a stop before the twelve can get out there, thus the question. I will increase the stock on the tools you describe. Today was set aside to practice with those tools, but its raining. I’ll have to be satisfied with just taking the thing apart and reassembling it. Thanks.

        • Hunker-Down,
          Why waste a perfectly good motor cycle? The .223 will definitely take out the driver, and over time will give your group a stash of parts for transportation and small engines for use around the property.

          • Hunker-Down says:

            I’m a lousy shot.

            • H-D,

              Use a shotgun. That will improve your shot considerably. LOL

            • Hunker-Down,
              Lousy shot can be fixed with practice. That’s also why we have 30 round magazines. Also, if your shooting is bad enough that you can’t hit the operator of the machine center mass, then hitting the much smaller engine block could be even more problematic.

            • Hunker-Down says:

              OhioPrepper,

              Considering the mass of both the bike and the rider, I may hit a tire or a helmet or something in-between. lol.

              I really need a 40mm pump shotgun.

            • H-D,

              My dh and I watched a movie called Act of Valor last night. There was a scene will a really cool gun–dh said it was a gatlin gun. One of those would work just fine. I told dh I wanted one to mount on my tank for Christmas.

        • Might not stop a motorbike, but I guarentee it’ll stop the driver!!

  5. If, and this is a big if, we as a “civilization” have actually learned from history and do not allow the “isms” like socialism, communism, collectivism to take hold them we may just survive. It does not take a village, Hillary. If we re-establish the Republic we were Blessed with and simply follow the Constitution to the letter we may be able to live together as men. “I swear by my life and my love of it that I will not live for another, Nor expect another to live for me.”

    Carl

    • mountain lady says:

      Now if we could only find out where Galt’s gulch is for us. I think that is my favorite of all Rand’s writing.

      • If I may Respond. Galts Gulch is where you are, if you truely believe in the principles and values that lead to the creation of this great country and Go Galt. Believe me when I tell you that actually mentally Going Galt is very very difficult. We all have the inherant belief that The United States of America has manifest destiny. We do not. Accepting that is really hard. BUT once you do accept that the current system is totally corrupt and un-redeemable and move away from it, you can be a true patriot.

        Sorry to lecture…Forgive me.

        • mountain lady says:

          Lecture all you want. I always thought the USA had a manifest destiny. Now I do not know, but I still try to find the answers.

          • Hmmm. If the United States has a manifest destiny, than so must every other state. Sounds like the old predestination vs free will discussion on a larger level. As far Manifest Destiny with capital letters is concerned, it has been described as everything from the Will of God to a marketing scheme cooked up by the elites of the day to stimulate investment and cheap labor in the colonies.

          • village idiot says:

            mountain lady, I’ll refer you to the concept of Manifest Destiny as I was taught it long ago. Manifest Destiny referred to the ideal that many Americans leaders, and most American people had in the 1840s that God intended for the United States to expand westward all the way to the Pacific Ocean.

    • This statement is about as anti-Christian as they get – isn’t it?

      “I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine. “

      • mountain lady says:

        Sorry, you just don’t get what that phrase means. If you have not read Atlas Shrugged, you should. I will not try to put into words what that phrase means to me. It is for each person to find it out for himself.

        • That’s okay. A fish that can’t climb a tree is not necessarily stupid. Ignorant of trees maybe, but apparently, it’s too much to ask that we all understand everything in the same way.

  6. It will be survival of the fittest for the first few years since most all of the resources will be gone through nuclear obliteration. I figure nuclear because no nation, that has nuclear weapons, will let itself die without using them. People are sociable so I expect that small communities (agro-cultures) will form. New communities (with new politics) will start new religions since the old religions will be seen as failures. The old politics (constitution?) will also be seen as a failure – as any government created will eventually become too powerful for its own people to control. The question will become – Can we live without government? Can ROL (Rule Of Law) be implemented without big government.

    Right now, the main power source is oil for most all the world. That power source is waning and on its way to scarce status. Oil does not come gushing out of holes any more so no community will be able to live on it. There will be no active nuclear plants – in fact – if one is still in the area, there will be no community. The only power source left is solar energy. The only solar power for the first few years will be from plants. Pine trees have sap that can be burned for light, Maple trees have sap that can be cooked down to sugar. Lots of food plants can be stored, dehydrated, root cellared. Wood from trees will give us warmth on cold days.

    • Natural Gas and Coal, along with oil to a lesser extent is still highly abundant (See ND & PA). Once we stop wasting energy keeping the lights on in Vegas and keeping golf courses and millions of acres of lawns green, and start using resources for the essentials, I think that at least in this country we will have a much better shot at reviving a more modern civilization than many others. Keep in mind also that governing is a social and cultural thing. Places like Russia and much of Europe were dictatorships (monarchies) for much of recorded history, and people tend to fall back in bad situations to what they know. This country has freedom and self determination as a large part of its cultural DNA, and I think we will generally tend to fall back into that trend. This is the reason why transplanting democracy into other countries is so hard. It takes 3 to 5 generations of people living in a democracy, or any other governing method, until it becomes the norm, If major problems happen during that generational education, then it becomes easiest to fall back into “what we know”. In the case of the U.S., what we know is the system we now have. Even the “progressives” won’t want a progressive government if they are not the ones in charge.

      • I think we should all be willing to thoroughly understand how to live well with the essentials then progress to reasonable technologies. Wasting resources is a sign of something else we haven’t dealt with. Greed, entitlement, laziness, just plain thoughtlessness. A dose of hard times tends to put things in perspective.

      • I didn’t know we lived in a democracy. Maybe that’s the problem?

        (jk, know what you meant O.P.)

        • Actually, our country was founded as a Republic, not a Democracy. There is a difference.

          • Encourager,
            Actually there is a big difference. One of my favorite definitions of these two systems is:
            Democracy: Two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to have for dinner.
            Republic: Two wolves and a sheep, voting on what to have for dinner; however, eating sheep is against the law AND the sheep are armed.

    • Hi Michael. Thanks for attempting to answer this question of what might happen. Unfortunately, your assertion about the nations and nukes is very logical. If new politics and religion are to form, I hope it is all based on the Golden Rule, simple and straight up, taken to the most radical levels.

    • “New communities (with new politics) will start new religions since the old religions will be seen as failures. ” ????

      I suppose that is true, if religion is your thing. I denounce all “religions” as I have a relationship with my Savior. Religion is man-made, BTW. So of course, if ‘their’ brand fails, they will make up a new one…but it still won’t work as it is man working, not God. When you get to the end of yourself and have no where else to go, turn to God. He has a plan for your life that is perfect, just for YOU. His plan involves you humbling yourself, confessing your many sins and saying you failed, you can’t save yourself, you need what Jesus has done for you – which is paying the price for your sins that you could not pay and being the way to His Father. Then the Creator of the universe adopts you as His son or daughter as the case may be.

      I don’t need no man made religion!! I’ve got something much better that will never fail me.

      • Jesus tells us not to worry what we will eat or what we will wear. If one is prepared, one need not worry.

        But if the end comes for me and I don’t live through the end of America, I would be better off to die and be with Him than a bunch of murderers, thieves, liars, and hell on earth.

      • UnhookedLiving

        I simply state what has “already happened” and apply that to our situation.

        Example given: ancient Babylonia with the Lions at the gate. We don’t worship lions much these days – in fact we keep them in zoos.
        Ancient Egypt with cat and dog (Jackals) gods. Except for pets we don’t worship cats much anymore.
        Ancient Greece with the first human gods (Apollo, Venus etc) but these gods aren’t thought of much anymore.
        Ancient Rome and their gods (Bacchus – god of merriment, some borrowed from Greek history) which aren’t worshiped much anymore.

        In fact in the mere 8 thousand years, that religious “experts” say that the world (and universe) has been “around” – Christianity has only been a thought for 2 thousand years. The “one true God” idea is very recent concept.

        Encourager,

        I am not going to try to convince you that there is no god but will remind you that “man makes gods – gods don’t make men”. There were no Gods before man got here, no churches, no altars.

        • Hunker-Down says:

          michael c,

          So, where did that piece of dirt we live on come from?

          • You mean the earth? It comes from us. I would never underestimate your “will power” or the power of the minds of all the life forms on this planet to “self create”. The will of all the life forms, past present and future, in the whole universe – create it.

        • Encourager says:

          Oh, yeah….that Big Bang theory. Hows that workin’ for ya? As Hunker Down said, something had to have been here before the Big Bang. A Creator maybe??

          Enuf of this. I am wasting my time and my time is too precious to waste.

  7. Lot’s of different possibilitiess and outcomes. Is it localized, U.S. only Western Civilization etc etc. At least half of the world live in a shtf situation from our perspective, if it is world wide then they won’t be affected to much depending on where their food comes from.
    I think if it will be a rolling collapse and how fast it depends on what happens. If it is a financial system then it will probably start with the Eurozone, and then U.S, South Am Aus, Japan will probably go right after Eurozone or be the start. China will be last be will be affected just as bad, WE and the Eurozone BUY all their crap. From what I understand the loans from China are not backed by land in the US but just by the ‘Faith and Trust” in the name of the US. They may try to get some land but won’t succed.
    Now if some crackpot does let loose EMP’s in the US and Eurozone it will be fast for us and them, I don’t think those radical islamic idiots realize how much food we send them and the rest of the world. After and EMP we will be able to feed ourselves after the shakeout and killing and dying happen. What kind of govt or govenments reemerge will depend on the shape different regions of the country end up in.. I think you will see lots of movement to the middle of the country with more temperate climates and it will look like it was 150 years ago for the most part. All depends on how hard and how fast we go down and how widespread it is worldwide.

    We can speculate all we want but we just won’t know till we get there.
    The main thing is all of us who have prepared will we be able to step up to the challange..

    • George has an important point here–all those folks in the Middle East and East Africa who are out to kill us heathens don’t realize that the U.S. produces 60 percent of the world’s grains. In a world-wide collapse, much of Africa and the Middle East will starve. Actually, given projects in the increase in food staples because of the drought, millions in Africa and the Middle East will starve. It was food shortages four years ago which sparked the Arab Spring.

      What do I think will happen? When there is not enough food, things get ugly. Famine breeds disease, contagion. The collapse of infrastructure breeds disease, contagion.

      If you want to hear my hair-brained idea, I think the U.S will default. Then we will let loose some novel strain of the flu in China–and then sell them the vaccine. It has always struck me as odd that the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918 started in Fort Riley, Kansas.

      • The US does not produce 60 percent of the world’s grains – it 2010 for example it produced less than 10% of the world’s total wheat crop (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_wheat_production_statistics). The EU alone produced more than twice as much wheat as the US.

        • Hunker-Down says:

          Lexington, Bam Bam:

          This chart tells a different story;
          http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s1374.pdf

          • Ummm…just so I’m not missing anything, different from what?

            That chart says the US’ percentage of world production of the listed crops is (2010):

            Wheat 9.3%
            Coarse Grains 31.4%
            Rice 1.6%
            Oilseeds 22.3%
            Cotton 12.0%

            The first three items relate to grain production, and I think it’s obvious that the US does not account for 60% (or anything close to it) of the world’s total production.

            • Good points lexington , but the one thing the charts do show is that the US is by % of production to export the leading exporter of food in the world. A lot of other countries may produce more than we do but they consume it and don’t export. When I look at the middle eastern countries they produce very little and import a large amount and that may just well come from the US. In my opinion we can survive a lot better without their oid than they can without our food exports.

            • Hunker-Down says:

              You’re right, I didn’t take the time to convert the tonnage to percentages.

            • Okay, I must have misread the figure. The article I was reading talked about the amount of grain the U.S. exports. The point of the article was that the U.S. exports such a large percentage of the worlds grains, that with the drought here in the U.S. there will be food shortages abroad. That’s why the U.N and the WHO are calling on the U.S. to suspend the requirement that ethanol be used in gasoline.

            • I am not crazy. Here’s an article that talks about U.S. exports as a percentage of the world food supply. Look under the exports table.

              http://www.answers.com/topic/food-supply-and-the-global-food-market

            • Bam Bam just to clarify the chart to which you refer to below, “Total” refers to the total of all the countries listed, not just the US. In 2000 for example all the countries listed exported about US $291 billion in agricultural products, which is about 65% of the $447.5 billion world total. However the US’ share of that $291 billion was only $45 billion.

              The chart isn’t clearly labelled but if you give it another look I think you’ll see my math adds up.

          • George,

            not necessarily disagreeing with you, but if we are now talking about “exports” rather than “production” then the goalposts have been moved. Country A could produce 100 tonnes of wheat and export 0 tons, while country B produces 1 tonne and exports all of it. By that measure Country B is winning the export war even though it’s total production is only 1% of Country A!

            I also think you need to take into account circumstances. The US’ large percentage of “gross grains” production probably reflects its dominance in corn (maize) production – which is heavily subsidized by the American taxpayer. Most of that corn isn’t being used to feed people, it’s being used to produce ethanol (in the US) and to feed livestock outside it. Both of these are bad bargains, but that’s another story.

            I agree that a decline in US production is going to have global implications – in fact because of the current drought the UN is urging the US to divert corn production from ethanol to food (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8808b144-e240-11e1-8e9d-00144feab49a.html#axzz25fYRBqp9), which I personally think is eminently sensible- but those implications aren’t on par with saying the US produces 65% of the world’s total grains!

      • RE: “…those folks in the Middle East and East Africa who are out to kill us heathens don’t realize that the U.S. produces 60 percent of the world’s grains.” They probably know how much of their oil is used to produce the food we export to them, don’t you think?

    • Hi George, thanks for describing your take on things. It will be interesting to see how it all shakes out.

      • Anyone interested in a more in depth look at American agriculture should read Michael Pollan’s “The Omnivore’s Dilemma”. I’m just in the first few chapters and although it’s not an easy read I’m so interested I can barely put it down.

  8. I agree,Carl. It worked fairly well for a couple hundred years. The main problem was that the government got in the way of governing…. The thing with governments arekind of like problems in all churches. They are full of people!!

  9. Encourager says:

    “Do you really believe our present problems — the ones that have us prepping — are all somebody else’s fault, and that we have no culpability in the current scenario?”

    It is our own fault. Why? Because we have mostly become a people of apathy. If it doesn’t affect us personally, we just don’t care. We don’t vote; we don’t care that immoral, self-serving politicians keep getting re-elected; we might make a stink if that neighbor who cheated us or was rude to us got himself elected to the local township board, then we might care. We look the other way when we see someone shoplifting; we break the law by speeding, by not stopping completely at stop signs, by drinking and driving or texting and driving; when the clerk gives us too much change, we don’t speak up and give it back but snicker “their loss, my gain!”; we look the other way when our brother beats his wife…again; we cheat on our spouses; don’t send any child support, even when our kids go hungry; we don’t look in on our elderly neighbor to see if we can help in any way; etc, etc.

    Now, I know that not ALL of us are apathetic. But when the majority of society is apathetic; when there is no morality; when we allow people to call good evil and evil good; when society as a whole is a cesspool ~~ it is hard to change anything. Is it too late? Maybe it is. Maybe we just need to let the SHTF, pick up the pieces and start over. Start over with the Constitution, minus the Amendments to it; we can always reinstate the ones that are morally correct.

    I don’t wish this on anyone. I know the Bible says the world (people) will become more and more evil, with hardened hearts, with fathers against sons, neighbor against neighbor. Sure don’t want to live like this. But God, above all, rules. Let His Will be done.

    • Hi Encourager. Thank you. I see the sheep being separated from the goats in the not so distant future.

    • Encourager,

      I would like to see something here in America akin to Israel and cottage cheese. The voice of the people in Israel was heard loud and clear–all because one person got angry enough to blog on the price of cottage cheese. One man started a revolt that ended up with a mega corporation backing down.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottage_cheese_boycott

    • You say we are amoral. Freedom must mean freedom. Your views should not dicate someone else’s life. We have the most prisoners on the planet. And a lot of them for stupid things like smoking weed. If you legalized weed you just freed our prison budget up by 50%

      What is morally correct? Does your morals come from the bible? If so is this the same bible that says if you rape a virgin woman you need to pay her father a fine and marry your rape victim? That slaves most stay loyal to their masters. The bible condradicts itself.

      We must have freedom. How come a person that murders someone can serve only 30, 60, or 90 DAYS and we have pot heads in prison for years? These non-violent offenders are then raped or beaten in jail and come out to exact revenge on society that put them there.

      Yes we should have morals but they should be taught by parents to seek peace, understanding, and compromise. Not to condemn people that are different and have different morales sexually, environmentally (they may have a messy house while yours is spotless); or socially. Practice what your religion teaches but don’t change laws to force others to practice your beliefs.

      • Whoa Foxy! I never, never said YOU had to accept my morals or even the morals put down in the Bible. How about the New Testament? How about “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind…and love your neighbor as yourself.”

        Sometimes freedom is another person’s slavery. And sometimes freedom is nothing more than permission to do whatever you want, regardless of who gets hurt…and sometimes freedom is not free.

        And I DO NOT practice ‘religion’; I thought I made that pretty clear. I never suggested taking away your choice of what to believe or do…God gave us free will, to choose; why would I do otherwise? There is a way that seems wise to a man but leads to death.

        • Sorry Encourager for my misunderstanding of what you wrote. I’ve been really busy lately trying to organize the house and preps.

          I’ve never read the bible I go to evilbible.com when I want to look something up from it. I’m agnostic. Yes we should have morales no they should not come from the bible.

          Again I am sorry if I offended you.

          • Encourager says:

            Wow…Foxy, you sure jump to conclusions. I don’t take offense. So no need to apologize. You make your choices and I will make mine.

  10. Texanadian says:

    Any long term disruption of the power grid, either by an EMP or natural disaster can have serious implications for life as we know it. If this disaster effects more than half of the country – say everything east of the Mississippi then the disruption of supply routes, supplies and the flow of information will be seriously impeded. Without outside help arriving or some form of government intervention I feel there would be wide spread rioting and looting. If the eastern states were without power how long would it be before the western states could mobilize to bring assistance. The wider spread the damage the longer the response time. My experience is the veneer of civilization is very thin. Societal collapse would probably occur within 3 weeks.

    • Then what do you think will happen?

      • Unhooked,

        I am not Texan. But I have an answer. My answer is riots. When the food in folk’s frig starts to go bad and they realize they are on their own, it will be each man for himself. I started prepping because I see the food riots that occurred in North Africa and the Middle East happening here. The masses do not know how to stretch a dollar. The masses do not know how to bake their own bread, make soups to pressure can, extend food with fillers like rice and oatmeal. The masses don’t even know how to cook using real ingredients. The masses don’t have real food stocked in their pantries. When they run out of food, they will break into houses looking to steal others’ food. And then they will get shot.

        • Riots followed quickly by martial law. I agree with Texanadian that “the veneer of civilization is very thin.”

          • What worries me is ‘WHO’ will show up to ‘help’ us…the UN? Mexico? China??

            I can’t help but think of what Jesus said – “How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that it will not be winter …when you flee.” I think these verses would apply to a terrible time as we have been talking about, when the food has run out, hunger has set in, hope is gone.

  11. robert in mid michigan says:

    the biggest part of the rebuild in my opinion is to return to the constitution and expand it even further in what the government does not have the rite to do. charity is not the province of the government but of each of us. get ride of teh fiat currency i dont care if its backed by iron or copper gold or silver it has to have a solid backing.
    we need to put limits on the government and allow the people to decide thier own fate. no work no food charity from others will carry those that actually need help.

    • I think we need to have citizen politicians. One term, regular pay, well guarded condos for them to live in when they are not in their home state. It would be much easier to heavily guard one or two complexes than a bunch of individuals. Make their homes earth sheltered, and they’ll be even safer.

      AND – in this modern day and age, when we can count votes almost as quickly as they are cast – we need to get rid of our outdated electorial system. When it took days or weeks to get to the State Capital to vote, the electorial system was reasonable.

      • Michele,
        I absolutely concur with your first paragraph. Citizen legislators were I think the intent of the founding fathers; however, I absolutely disagree with your second paragraph on elimination of the Electoral College. It was not implemented to account for slow voting tallies, but like the senate (which became dysfunctional after the 17th amendment) was there as a check and balance between the large states (population wise) and the small ones. If we eliminate the electoral system, then we become a democracy based on popular vote (note that a democracy is not a republic) and national candidates only have to concentrate on perhaps the 10 or 15 largest population states, and simply ignore the others. If you live in a lightly populated state, you not only have fewer representatives, but are likely to get squashed by the large population states on any legislation.

        As an example, California has a current population of 37,691,912 and 53 electoral votes (and representatives). Wyoming has a population of 568,158 and 1 electoral vote (and representative). With 66 times the population, California only has 53 times the electoral vote, which gives a little better chance for the small population states to have some influence. Remember the popular vote is akin to democracy, and democracy is best defined as two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner. The smaller states would become sheep very quickly without the senate and the Electoral College.

        • village idiot says:

          Thank you for that, OhioPrepper, that is the best I’ve ever seen the Electoral College explained, and the purpose the founders had in mind when they established it. Government 101.

        • I still disagree with the electorial vote. I think it should be popular vote. That way it has nothing to do with states, it is a one person to one vote ratio.

          I live in a conservative county. There is probably only 2 conservative counties in California – maybe more, but not many. My vote doesn’t count – at all, and I’ve never missed voting in an election since I turned 18.

          • Michele,
            It just dawned on me why you are frustrated when looking at the popular vote vs. the Electoral College vote. The popular vote is still an issue for the presidency, which is in fact the only single national office for which the entire country votes and the only place the Electoral College is used. Your frustration (as is mine and many others) is the use by most states of the winner-takes-all rule. Only two states, Nebraska and Maine, do not follow the winner-takes-all rule and divide their Electoral College votes proportionally. Whether the votes are divided proportionally or all awarded to a single candidate is a choice of the state legislature, and is not the problem per. Se. of the Electoral College system.

    • Hi Robert. If we are able to establish those things you mention — expand the Constitution to further protect liberty, get rid of fiat money, and end the nanny state — what can be done to preserve those things. I mean, we pretty much had them once, so how to stop from repeating the same mistakes?

      • robert in mid michigan says:

        we do our job, to keep the government in check. yeah i know we did that once but no democracy (republic) has stood the test of time because people always start to ask whats in it for me. that being said it needs to be dismanteled and rebuilt from time to time.

        i know for twenty years i went on my merry way living my life and not watching the government. in the last seven i have become very vocal, go to the meetings and pitch my b***h i also encourage others to do the same. if you agree with me fine stand with me if you dont great stand up and make your point let the people decide one way or the other but make your sales pitch listen to the otherside and work together to find a way to make it work. rite now i am working around 60 hours a week but i am also donating around 20 more to my congressional represenatives campaign. vigilance is the only answer i have to that.

      • I believe there is a bit of insanity in every population, that repeat the same mistakes and think they will get a different result every time.

        I think education of our consitution starts and home, then at grade school, high school, and college. Progressiveism has erassed the importance of it over the years through education and replaced it with radicalism.

  12. Hunker-Down says:

    The people who constructed our constitution did it based on their experience with England. Their knowledge of their preceding 200 years gave them the insight to see injustice and how to limit it. In the last 40 years our forefathers reliance on God has been purged from history books by ‘publish or perish’ aesthetic liberal university professors.

    I’ll bet that there is no one under 45 years of age that has the proper exposure to history needed post TSHTF to reconstruct a set of societal rules that would vaguely resemble the magnificent job done by our country’s forefathers. The few that do will probably get their heads loped off by the empty headed sheeple who know nothing about, and could care less about the lessons of history.

    On a local level, communications will travel at the speed it did when the Romans used runners to relay messages, no TV. Food distribution will be at the speed of a mule., no McDonald’s. Fuel will be made at the rate of fermentation, no happy hour.
    Cheers.

    • “The few that do will probably get their heads loped off”.
      Probably true, but they’ll be crawling over a pile of sheeple carcasses to get us, LOL.

    • Hey, watch it there H-D. I am one of those liberal university professors and I could reconstruct history as it actually happened. And I am under 45 years of age. Geesh!

    • village idiot says:

      HD, I would be willing to bet that less than 1% of the people you referred to would know anything about the writings of John Locke, or anything about the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and the Declaration of Right. Or that the later Bill of Rights gave rise to the world’s first Constitutional Monarchy in England. These events would come to have the most influence on our founding fathers. The history being taught in public schools these days bears no resemblance to what I learned a generation ago. Nothing but identity and grievence politics, silly and unconnected events, and plain, outright lies.

  13. Uncle Charlie says:

    Considering that Man has never learned from history, I don’t expect things ever to be better regardless of what happens. For my part, if I was healthy, I wouldn’t stick my head out for a long time. But unfortunately, I don’t have a long time without some level of medication manufacture and sophisticated surgery. So it all sort of moot to me. I can survive for the short term but that’s all.

    • Hi Uncle Charlie — I need to believe they will get better. So it sounds like you are interested in prepping to the degree which your circumstances allow. I guess in reality, we’re all in that boat one way or another.

  14. SurvivorDan says:

    “Do you really believe our present problems — the ones that have us prepping — are all somebody else’s fault, and that we have no culpability in the current scenario? If our opinions and actions are so righteous, what is stopping us from manifesting a better reality right now? Are we preppers helpless victims of circumstance?”

    I have served my country in uniform and out. I always worked and supported my family. Never took welfare and never even collected unemployment. I voted and participated directly in politics. I served for years as a volunteer reserve deputy sheriff. I spent 10 years with search and rescue. I tithe to my church and give to charities.

    Not trying to blow my horn but only wish to preface my answer to the question posed; yes….I don’t believe that I have any culpability in the present crisis. Nor do I believe that preppers even as a single group could effectuate enough change to do any good. And it would mean sacrificing their Opsec which is so important to the nature of this prepping business. That is what prevents us as preppers from “manifesting a better reality right now.”

    Still…thought provoking article. Well done.

    • SurvivorDan… +1. Well said.

    • Thanks for the kind words SurvivorDan, and for your perspective. You have done everything right to the best of your understanding, as a citizen and individual, yet are now in the situation of preparing for the worst. So in my hypothetical scenario that you emerge on the other side of TEOTWAWKI, what, if anything would you do to avoid the same situation? Or is it a Groundhog Day thing?

  15. Thank you all for your thoughtful comments. I’ve been busy with work all day and just now logged on and was able to read some of them. I can’t wait to digest all this later tonight.

  16. SurvivorDan says:

    I only meant to say that preppers can only prepare for disasters, even TEOTWAWKI, and perhaps band together to survive a Collapse and then help to rebuild. But we needn’t take responsibility for preventing the Big Collapse from coming. We are not causing it nor can we prevent it. Not possible. And now we can only resolve to survive and help some others survive. Anonymity is essential to the business of prepping for the Big One.
    People like MD take great risks, sacrificing much of their Opsec, to help the rest of us prepare. Few would risk coming out of their ‘spider hole’ of anonymity to try to halt the inevitable.
    Pessimistic? Perhaps. Pragmatic? Absolutely. .

  17. Estar,

    This is a great post–very thought provoking. I think the best way to predict what will happen after a collapse is to look at history. Rome is a perfect example. The best theory as to why Rome collapsed is that folks got rich and lazy. The young men did not want to serve in the military. So the government hired mercenaries to protect the people. The people got more and more self-indulgent and incompetent.

    • SurvivorDan says:

      “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” Nocluewhosaidit

      Too late to undo another stooopid repeat of mankind’s myopic travails on earth. {too much cough medicine}

    • Bam Bam – Thanks for the positive feedback on the article. Self-indulgence and incompetence are definitely at epidemic proportions in America. I think the fall of any world power is due to a combination of factors with the common link of getting too big for your britches.

  18. I’m not certian the ‘underserved’ will allow the reconstruction of a system they learned to hate from birth. They, the underserved, may ‘want’ much of what the system gave them… its that I am not sure they will want to work… to get what it may offer them in the future. Cruel sounding isn’t it. Bigoted.. ? I also wonder if the future ‘haves’ will be interested in supplying the ‘have nots’ with anything other than good wishes and directions.

    • I don’t think the “undeserved” are going to make it through the crucible, imo.

      • I think we will cap their dumb asses when they break in and try to steal our stores. Sorry, but the “underserved” lack skills and that is why they are poor. We can take the very young and raise them up as our own. The rest will be killed because all they know how to do is take, take, take. They don’t know how to work. When they try to take what is not theirs and to deprive hard working folks of their means to support and feed their families, they will be justly killed.

        Here’s a good quote from Kant.

        “When, however, someone who delights in annoying and vexing peace loving folk receives at last a right good beating, the beating is certainly a bad thing, but everyone approves of it and considers it good in itself even if nothing further results from it; nay, even he who gets the beating must acknowledge, in his reason, that justice has been done to him, because he sees the connection between well-being and well-doing, which reason inevitably holds before him, here put into practice.”

        (Kant, Critique of Practical Reason)

  19. Uncle Charlie says:

    I just finished watching the pilot for the new NBC TV show “Revolution” off the internet which fits right into our discussion. It airs on 9/17. Apparently there is a world wide power outage which our hero knew was about to happen. Fast forward 15 years and we find a peaceful cul-de-sac where everybody is growing corn and getting along wonderfully. The hero’s son and daughter go hunting (exploring) with a bow and we discover that the son is as asthmatic but luckily a “doctor” back at the cul-de-sac gives him a nasty concoction to drink and all is well. All of a sudden a group of strangely armed semi-uniformed men walk into town with a leader who at first blush looks like Obama (maybe it’s just me) who is riding the lone horse (I guess they all didn’t get eaten) . Our hero states that we’ve already paid their Spring taxes (crops), but the captain announces that he is not from the local militia but is acting under orders from General Monroe and that he wants our hero and his brother. In any event he needs to go now and he doesn’t get to ask way, after all it is apparently martial law That’s when his son (recovered from asthma attack) now points a bow at the militia (a scene out of the Patriot). Others back his play and even one has a rifle and is informed that gun possession is a hanging offense. All hell breaks loose and our hero is shot so they take his son instead. Our dying hero tells his daughter to go to Chicago and find his brother. Apparently they are in the close in subburbs of Chicago as it only takes her a couple of days to walk there.

    No explanation of what happened to millions of people, I guess they just died in the interim as scenes from DC looks like the National Geographic series about what the earth looks like after people are gone. It looked more like 100 years than 15. Wrigley field in Chicago was surrounded by vegetation. Before he died our hero gave a friend an amulet looking thing to hold safe. Does this have something to do with the power outage? During the battle, it turns out the army has muzzle loaders and swords. Only the captain has a semi-authomatic handgun which could’ve been a Desert Eagle. I guess that is one way to keep the troops in line and not rebellious.

    To make a long story short, it reminds me of “Lost” with lots of flashbacks where we find the brothers had something to do with the goverment and knew Sargeant Monroe who is now the General. Also, we find that a woman in a farm house has some sort of mysterious power source and can contact someone on the intenet via an acient computer with an old fashioned green screen. Looking more like Lost all the time. The straight story isn’t exciting enough, there always has to be a mystery.

    No automobiles at all, not even old ones with no electronics which could run off of wood like was done in WWII and other sci-fi movies because they really do work. The vechical just needs to be really old or stripped of all it’s electonic components. The richesst person on the planet must have the candle concession because they are burning them like there is no tomorrow which was never done, except perhaps by the rich. when people actually had to use candles tp see after sundown.

    To me it is only entertaining because of the lack of thought that went into it regarding day to day details and assumptions made with no explanation. For example, with all the guns in the US today and all electronic records gone, how did all those guns get rounded up or even surrenderered? Not in our world. I guess that’s why the army is using black power guns since all the hundreds of millions of rounds of ammunition got used up in 15 years. But then they would’ve not been able to have the big sword fight scene at the end of the first episode. Ha! I guess we didn’t see any preppers because they kept a low profile. I supposed it could be a lot worse. No black helicopters etc Apparently, no other countries could get it together either since there were no foreign invaders. At least no zombies, not yet anyway.

  20. Prepping Preacher says:

    there are no “new worlds” to be discovered and populated, no new sources of wealth to be mined… with the world a shrunken to it’s current size, those who survive will have to “restart the engine” and make the best of things as they go… we, like those who were on the verge of sailing from the UK in the 1600’s and 1700’s, are facing an unknown – a complete unknown… there has been only one other occasion in mans’ timeline when this has happened and, as far as i know, there are no records available to refer to… speculation and conjecture is the best anyone can use to offer up possible scenarios… if the information-sharing technologies we currently have become paperweights and doorstops and the other technological advances(electric co’s, waste treatment plants, manufacturing on the whole) are nonexistant, there will likely be return to an earlier era where such things did not exist… imho, it will therefore be in every individual’s best interest to be as capable at self-sufficiency and protection as humanly possible… who knows but what God may again allow a resurgance of the character quality that made the U.S. a once-great nation – rugged individualism…

  21. charlie (NC) says:

    Lurking somewhere in our midst for the last day or so is a lady from NY.
    I don’t know her handle here and I won’t reveal her real name but I sent her here for help. Let me explain. She is a 65 year old retired lady with a vision imparment. She lives alone in NY City in a 15th floor appartment.
    She has no family and she has NEVER traveled outside of NY city in her life.

    She’s looking for a way out. My first contact with her on a different list was when she was seeking advice on communication equipment (radio)
    but it soon became apparent to me and I hope to her that she has no future living in the city. However, that is all she knows or has ever known.
    She needs help and encouragement to find her way into a safer and more hospitable location. She is rightfully scared to death of being in a rural area or small town as it it totally foreign to her. Maybe she’ll speak up.
    If not there must be others in that same situation reading this blog. Hopefully we can lead the way for these folks to escape to a better way of life if that is what they need and want.

    • Charlie, I don’t know that I have any answers for this lady, but my heart goes out to her and I do live in upstate NY. If she reads this and wants to make contact, I’m giving MD permission to give her my email.

      • charlie (NC) says:

        akaGaGa,

        I don’t know if she’ll speak up. She might be overwhealmed at the size of this group so far and she might not even see these messages.
        I and several others advised her to get out of the city but she knows nothing about life outside of NY City. Rural NY and New Hampshire were the two northern areas I advised her to look into. I figured that would be most familiar to her. I also advised her to look at small towns and smaller cities in the southeast.

        I think city folks have a mis conception of the services available and convenience of living in small town America. She’s afraid to live outside the city but wants to try. I’d be afraid to live in the city and there is NO WAY that I’m going to!

        • charlie (NC) says:

          aka, I meant to say thanks for your offer to help. She can certainly relate to you better than she can to a red neck boy like me.

  22. Well done article, and definitely thought-provoking.

    I would add one element: the environment. Considering what the political and religious ramifications may be and how we would re-build that is fine and good, but I do believe the environment/weather will have a big say in how things can play out in any change mankind creates. Whatever we believe as individuals, there IS a change in weather patterns, and that does and will affect all of us, and our ability to maintain and /or rebuild after a TEOTWAWKI….if we are still here.

    Over the last few years, the weather has created carnage in many areas that are even now still struggling to ‘re-build’, and it’s not letting up. Isaac was a cat ONE hurricane, and made Southern Louisiana and other areas even more of a mess. The drought this year has been more far-reaching than in a long time, and we won’t even know the results from it for at least a couple of years…IF there is a return to ‘normal’. The Mississippi River has been so low, ships can’t navigate it to deliver goods and supplies. Who knows if that will ‘right’ itself? Bears are moving more into city areas because of the drought, looking for food. Because of the last 3 mild winters here, there are more insects than some old-timers can remember, including a THIRD round of grasshoppers that are eating everything.

    In my opinion, we will be very busy surviving if/when the economy and/or the government collapses, and a re-build of society will come only when the dust has settled, and after a big die-off and balancing out of population. I agree with whomever said above that it will be “local”, at least firstly.

    But to answer the article’s actual questions, I offer this quote by Albert Einstein (paraphrased): ” A problem cannot be solved by the mind(s) that created it”. Too bad that that’s all we will have.

    I am not feeling well today, so this is probably not written as well as I’d like, but I wanted to add something to this discussion, which is a good one.

    • I hope you’ll feel better tomorrow, MtWoman.

      I often wonder what will happen to the children and older folks in a post SHTF scenario. They are the most vulnerable and most likely to perish. Yet they represent our hopes for the future and a vast reservoir of wisdom and knowledge. Will the survivalist community view them as an asset or a liability. Will compassion be a human quality that transends selfish motivation to survive beyond our short-sighted fears?

      I think that mankind has not really changed very much in the past ten thousand years. We will always fear what we do not understand and greed and the need for power will always guide our actions. After all, power is security and self preservation. It will seem wise to kill or persecute those outside your ‘clan’ than risk the possibility of annihilation.

      To me, sadly, the future in a post SHTF world in North America will resemble more closely the world depicted in “the Book Of Eli” without the hope of the great book depository on Alcatraz.

      I hope that I’m wrong. I hope that humans will rise up to be the best that they can be and finally learn from the mistakes of the past.

      However, my mind keeps going back to that old story about the beaver and the scorpion trying to co-operate in crossing a river. The beaver asked the scorpion for assurance that the scorpion would not sting him if he carried him on his back while crossing. The beaver was assured. However, half way across, the scorpion fatally stung the beaver. As the beaver succumbed to the poison he cried out, “You’ve killed us both, why?” The scorpion replied, “I can’t help it, it’s just in my nature!”

      Can we change our nature? Hope springs eternal.

      • Watchdog….thanks. And you make some good points here….

      • Hunker-Down says:

        How can we learn from the mistakes of the past? They are not on our ipad or Facebook. Oh, I forgot, I ain’t got no ipad or Facebook account. Guess I’ll just have to get one of those revisionist history books from our public school system.

      • Well, I don’t want to go gettin’ all religious on ya, Watchdog, but the only time I’ve ever seen someone truly change their nature was by turning to God, myself included.

        That’s a hope you can count on.

      • Thanks for sharing your thoughts Watchdog. I have to agree with your assessment of human nature and your hope. I like the old Indian story about the grandpa who tells his grandson about the two fighting wolves inside us, and evil one and a good one. The grandson asks which one wins, to which grandpa replies — the one you feed. At every moment each one of us gets to decide which wolf to feed. I guess we tend to feed them both more or less.

        • Grandpa is not right – neither wolf ever loses. The Ying cannot be (exist) without the Yang. Either wolf can win the day, if you yell at your neighbor for blowing grass into your yard – the bad wolf wins. If you help your other neighbor – then the good wolf wins. But you still need both to survive – you cannot live without either one.

          • Michael C, I respectfully disagree. We have many examples of people who fed the good wolf; Mother Teresa, Jesus, Buddah and Ghandi come to mind. I’m not saying the bad wolf didn’t exist in them, but they effectively pushed it into a corner, didn’t let it out and never fed it. The good wolf in them grew on the wonderful diet it enjoyed. Those individuals led very enriched lives and were loved by millions!!
            The path to feeding the good wolf is a relatively easy one, though hard to stay on. One must first recognize that most people are basically decent in their own right. Even Adoph Hilter had his good points, ie. he loved Germany with a passion and he was ever faithful to Eva Braun. Of course, his bad points were astronomically overwhelming. Don’t get me wrong, Hilter was evil incarnate.
            My point is this, every person should step back from a situation to determine the motives behind the actions or speech of the other person. Even if I wrong you, you think about why I wronged you and I think about you being wronged by me. We might come out of a tense predicament with a whole new prespective and maybe a newfound respect for one another. It ain’t the easiest path, but it’s the best one.
            So we feed the good wolf and find out I wronged you because I couldn’t pay back what I owed you because to do so would cause my babies to go hungry. We talk and work out an equitable deal we can both live with. We’re both happy. We fed the good wolf.
            Or, we feed the bad wolf and you take me to court to get what’s coming to you. Then another neighbor realizes that’s the way you want to handle the little matter of what you owe him. He takes you to court. Now I’m angry at you, you’re angry at me and the other neighbor, and the other neighbor is angry at you. We fed the bad wolf.
            All this takes is one person to smile and understand that stuff happens. I’m on this path. Lawd knows it’s tough and I’ve fallen from it occasionally, but it is very rewarding in the end.

            • @Michael C…The Ying cannot be (exist) without the Yang. …you still need both to survive.” Along the same reasoning, I wonder how there can be heaven if there is no concept of evil. But still, I like Survivor’s striving for good. How do you know you need evil to survive if you have not tried unconditional love?

    • Hope you are feeling better very soon. Hugs.

    • Thank you Mt Woman. Interesting quote by Einstein. Perhaps an antidote is to be transformed by the renewing of ours mind, which is possible because it says it in the Bible. As long as we have a mind and a heart, growth is possible. I have to sweeten my dooms day views with a dose of optimism.

  23. Interesting post! How to bring in a new and better system in a Post-SHTF era really has to do with restoring aspects of the Constitution, but more important than that, restoring government to that which was biblically ordained by God. Most atheist Libertarians and freedom lovers will wince at such a statement. I have written about this in my own blog:

    http://survivebeyondearth.blogspot.com/2012/08/more-biblical-guidance-on-appropriate.html

    I am not advocating the restoration of “religion” per say. I am, however, advocating a government built upon the principles set forth by God’s word. I strongly believe that our world (and our country – the USA) is in the mess that that it is in due to our “falling away” from God’s will and His word. He has allowed us to fall due to all of our collective transgressions!

    As for those who would strongly advocate a strict return to ONLY the US Constitution as the founders would have advocated, I have little faith that this would be the ONLY solution. Sure, I would say that we should restore the Constitution, but most importantly, we need to put a much stronger emphasis upon following God’s word, which clearing spells out the fact that government should be limited.

    For those wondering what my concerns are about ONLY a return to the Constitution, should read my this post in my blog:

    http://survivebeyondearth.blogspot.com/2012/08/why-us-constitution-cannot-save-you.html

    The above blog entry exposes the MYTH that our founding fathers were God-fearing Christians. Certainly, they each had good points about them, and yes, they did refer to God’s name at times, but some of the statements they made were clearly anti-Christian!

    So what am I advocating? I do advocate the restoration of the US Constitution, but I urge atheistic Constitutionalists to put the HIGHEST priority upon God’s word. If we do this, then a system of God-ordained LIMITED government would return.

    Blessings,

    Jason

    • Thanks for posting this Jason. Your blog is very thought provoking and I like the design of your book cover too.

      • Thanks very much for your kind and thoughtful words!

        If inclined, I am on twitter as well. FYI…:
        https://twitter.com/JasonReinhardt7

        BTW, in my book, I discuss SIMPLE living in an urban environment. That appears to be your theme in your website. Too many people overcomplicate nearly every function in their life, only to be worse off than they were before!

        Best Regards,

        Jason

        • I look forward to reading it Jason. I started off in big cities, as a kid, but to me surviving simply in a rural area is MUCH easier and its basically what my book is about. It will be interesting to read ideas for an urban environment.

          • Actually, one critical aspect that I cover is the issue of “personal privacy.” In an urban environment, this is somewhat easier than in a truly rural area! But, nonetheless, what I teach can be applied in principle to those in rural areas as well. Should you or anyone you know ever decide to move back into an urban area, then my book is of even greater use. I can only teach what I know.

            As for the “spiritual aspects”, I do not get into “religion” but I do focus on conservative interpretations of Scripture which apply to any and all – rural or urban.

            As I see it, “survival” must be approached at all levels – spiritual, mental, and physical…that is the order of importance.

            Blessings,

            Jason

  24. village idiot says:

    Estar, very good and thought-provoking article. What we have to realize is that the country and world we live in today was established in a tradition from the past that is rapidly being diminished. Belief in God has reached an all-time low in Western Europe and the US, so whatever system takes hold will likely be based on a political system, not a religious one. If the country were to break apart, then I suppose it’s possible that some areas might have a religious component. I don’t expect that to be the case though. I noticed the Democrat Party took a reference to God out of its platform, so more proof of what I referred to above. More stuff to think about, I guess.

  25. I AM SO EXCITED! My first web page is up. OK, so it’s just one little page with no advertisements or links and only one article, but it’s up.

    http://www.selfreliantgranny.com

  26. You know one scenario I can see happening is the one in the movie
    The Postman with Kevin Costner. Yeah I know a lot of people thought it was a bad movie but I liked it. I can see some smaller spread out cities hunkering down and creating their own security zones to protect themselves from roving bands, militias etc. Eventually when some of the worse gangs are taken care of then larger groups and communities reach out and start communication and trade that then expands. I think what we have left of society will try to get back to what we had , how fast and what form will most likely depend on what level of technology we loose and what can be brought back and how fast. I do think Big national govt will be gone or severly limited and states and regions will form more smaller less invasive ones, which might be tough to get to but better in the end.

    • I like the Postman too, and kind of figured the small communities banding together was probably the way it would be after TEOTWAWKI.

      And I think you are right, it might be a little better to have smaller states. It scares me that the powers that be think they have the right to take away all the rights and possessions of its citizens without due process anymore and many of the other things that made this country so wonderful. I hope some sanity eventually comes back to the Feds, but I somehow doubt it, and it saddens me, I love this country.

  27. Hobbes, a brighter fellow than myself considered a time of lawlessness:

    “Whatsoever therefore is consequent to a time of Warre, where every man is Enemy to every man; the same is consequent to the time, wherein men live without other security, than what their own strength, and their own invention shall furnish them withall. In such condition, there is no place for Industry; because the fruit thereof is uncertain; and consequently no Culture of the Earth; no Navigation, nor use of the commodities that may be imported by Sea; no commodious Building; no Instruments of moving, and removing such things as require much force; no Knowledge of the face of the Earth; no account of Time; no Arts; no Letters; no Society; and which is worst of all, continuall feare, and danger of violent death; And the life of man, solitary, poore, nasty, brutish, and short.”

    I’d say he’s very likely to be right on the money. Not bad for a fuzzy tiger – wish his spelling were better though.

    • Both Locke and Hobbes are some of my favorite philosophers. On on the best quotes by Hobbes describes life in a state of nature. Hobbes thinks that all human beings are essentially equal: “Even the strongest must at some time sleep, and even the weakest can prevail with a dagger in the night.”

    • I’m no expert on this, but as far as I can tell, Hobbes believed people to be intrinsically selfish and evil and felt the role of government is to protect us from ourselves and each other. Did our founding fathers agree with this rather pessimistic view of mankind? Well, they weren’t stupid. But, instead of focusing on the half empty glass, they banked on the idea that responsible liberty was more useful than oppression in bringing out the best in people and moving society forward.

      • Unhooked,

        No, Hobbes believes that we are rational self-interested agents–not that we are selfish. Hobbes thought that we agree to civil society in order to escape life in a state of nature, which would be “nasty, brutish and short”. We agree to conventional morality because we are better off abiding by the rules of society than risking decent back into a state of nature.

        It was said that Hobbes’ mother went into labor with him when she saw the Spanish Armada sailing up the British Channel. He lived during a time when England’s fate as a nation was not assured. He recommended a monarchy with absolute power to subvert rebellion. And he thought people would agree to a an absolute monarch because the only other option (in his mind) was anarchy where it is every man for himself. It was either an absolute monarch or total chaos.

        The core problem with Hobbes’ theory lies in the claim of absolute duality–either we give a monarch absolute power or we collapse into chaos. He didn’t see any middle of the road options.

        On another interesting note, if Hobbes had been born in any other country, he would have been burned at the stake. Galileo was brought before the Church for supposing the sun was at the center of the universe. Hobbes questioned the divine right of kings and argued that morality is a matter of rational self-interest (and NOT a series of commands handed down from God). He went so far as to give an account of the origins of civil society based to a large degree on rational self-interest and evolutionary theory. It was only because the Catholic Church wouldn’t grant Henry VIII a divorce that Hobbes wasn’t burned at the stake–when the Church wouldn’t let Henry divorce Catherine so he could marry Catherine’s sister, he kicked the Catholic Church out of England and started his own brand of Christianity–the Church of England. Interestingly, it is far from clear what we would have had the Enlightenment thinkers especially Locke and Mill without freedom of thought. Heck, even Descartes got called before the Church for suggesting that we can do science in good faith because science studies God’s creation.

        • One more thought: our founding fathers borrowed from Hobbes via Locke and Mill. Hobbes did take a negative look at human nature. That is why our founding fathers wanted a system of checks and balances, and why they gave citizens ultimate authority via jury nullification. We are given a trial by our peers. It doesn’t matter what all the fancy legislators say–if the people think a law is unjust, they can find the accused innocent by means of jury nullification.

          • village idiot says:

            I’m not trying to nitpick, but Mill wasn’t born until 1806, and had no influence on the founding fathers. As for Hobbes, I remember reading The Leviathan back in 1973 or so, and to me he justified the suppression of the people by writing a strong defense of absolute monarchy. He used native Americans as an example of the chaos and war that existed in the state of nature, which all resulted from the lack of a commonwealth or monarchy. In the social contract he envisioned, free men in a state of chaos gave up their natural rights to a monarch, and once the monarchy existed, it was absolute with no chance of change. That’s a very simplistic version, Bam Bam, but what stuck with me.

            In many ways, Locke completely rejected the thought of Hobbes, though giving Hobbes credit for the natural rights of man. One can’t look at Locke without looking at the Glorious Revolution of 1688 and its aftermath. The Bill of Rights is almost like a prelude to our Declaration of Independence, and one thing that stuck out to me in the Bill of Rights was a new condition placed on the king which prevented the removal of judges for anything other than bad behavior.

            Locke made the case for private property, for the overthrow and replacement of a sovereign who breaks the social contract with the people, and placed a limit on the power of government, along with a system of checks and balances.

            One of my favorite passages from the Two Treatises is, “The legislature cannot transfer the power of making laws to any other hands, for it being but a delegated power from the people, they who have it cannot pass it over to others”.

            Locke is my favorite philosopher, and to me the intellectual father of our country. Boring to most, but I find this fascinating, Bam Bam.

          • Jury nullification only works when there’s a trial. It has no effect when the president has a kill list that he shortens when the mood strikes.

  28. Hey, all. Since we are talking history and the destruction of civilizations, has anyone read about the nebra star disk? Here is an interesting link:

    http://circa71.wordpress.com/2011/03/

    The disk has been carbon dated and belongs to the European bronze age. The disk appears to be a celestial map. If so, this would rewrite our understanding of bronze age civilization and its technology. It does not seem unreasonable to suppose that whatever people invented and employed this technology belonged to a great civilization. The interesting question is that if there was such a civilization in bronze age Europe, what happened to them?

    Much of the ancient history we all learned is incomplete. I keep expecting folks to discover that the pyramids in Egypt were actually built as a power source–not an unreasonable supposition given that the pyramids were likely built on the banks of the Nile.

  29. Off topic just a bit, but there’s a system just off the coast of LA/TX that has a 50 percent chance of developing into a tropical storm in the next day or two.

    Oh, and Leslie is now a hurricane and Michael is curving back toward the east coast.

    http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/

  30. evans/hunter says:

    i “see” that at 2021 should be a economic great depression. at 2031….10 years later : a major global conflict should begin ; ]this is akin to 1901=e g-d….1911=the major global conflict. 1929=e g-d….1939= a major global conflict. 2001 was BAD….2011was WORSE…..2021 should be, IF THE “TREND’ CONTINUES, worser. post 2001 ain’t no progression to “paradise”…therefore it is the other one. the apocalypse etc. THE SITUATION IS OFF COURSE THAT A NEXT GLOBAL CONFLICT WILL BE A VERY-SOPHISTICATED FUTURISTIC ONE etc….a la The Terminator etc. The post 2008+2009+2011 etc economic recoveries will be THE FALSE RECOVERY of-legends. i reckon it will be THE DECONTAMINATION of enviroment & specie etc etc.

  31. Update: Both Leslie and Michael are now hurricanes. Leslie appears to be wandering harmlessly in the Atlantic. Hurricane Micheal is expected to curve back toward the east coast. And we might have a system in the gulf in the next few days–right off the coast of Texas by the La. state line. Those folks don’t need any more rain–there’s already too much standing water and that is creating a breading environment for mosquitoes. That means more West Nile infections.

  32. I would say it will be more of an “Out of The Ashes,” type scenario. Those with character & leadership will rise to the top (or perish trying) & will establish sectors, communities or redoubts against all of the bottom feeders (read: liberals, slimebags, Illegals, entitlement trash, etc.) that will roam the countryside trying to literally feed off those trying to put their lives back together.

    Will the USA recover? Doubt it…America has lost it’s will to survive as a country…always looking for the easy life, a free ride, etc. Only certain types (like preppers, former military, self-reliant individualist, etc.) who have the will to survive will see it through.

    Personally, I will be happy defending my area, raising/hunting food, riding horses, bartering with others who are of like mind & exterminating the vermin who are taking up valuable air.

    As for parties trying to re-establish the same old form of government…I will watch these self-servers very closely, because taxes are sure to follow. Might come down to states seceding & establishing their own militias (have a few ideas on that) IOT protect their turf & then the people of that state deciding what type of government they want.

    “IF” the national level ever got re-established, then it should be very limited, with state citizen part-time representation, at the state’s cost. If federal taxes were needed & voted upon “By The People” of each individual state, then the state should be responsible for collecting them & sending their fair share to the Federal government for the specific purpose that they were collected for…not what the citizen part-time representation decided, so no rampant expenditures or bail outs could occur.

    It will be very interesting if/when this happens…kind of exciting re-building the country & not making the same old mistakes that have led us up to even discussing this subject.

    Either way, it will be a time to get dog mean & woodsman tough, both inside & out.

  33. Encourager says:

    Hey, I know this is way off subject, but I need help. My dog had a seizure this morning; as far as I know it is her second one, the first being about two years ago. My vet was pretty unconcerned at the time (2 years ago). I learned the hard way not to touch her…she bit me the first time. She does not evacuate her bladder or bowels but foams at the mouth, when it stops she tries to stand but falls down, looks blank-eyed. We allowed her about 10 minutes to recover but stood nearby talking softly to her. After it was over, she wanted to be right next to me. She was okay within the hour, back to her normal, goofy self. She is 4 years old, a Labradoodle.

    Should we be concerned? The vet said tests were very expensive, if she only has one rarely, not to worry about them. I am worried about them. Thanks, Pack, for your advise.

    • My mother had a pom that had seizures, but he was much older. They put him on some med (sorry, I don’t know what) and that helped quite a bit.

      Hope your goofy pup is okay. I’ve had two labs and loved them to death.

  34. Southern Blonde says:

    Encourager:

    My son’s husky had a seizure during a hot July summer, and my son grabbed her and put her inside, thinking that the heat got to her. Six months later, she had three seizures in the span of an hour. He took her to the vet office, and they put her on anti-seizure medication for humans. No big tests were done—the vet gave her this medication and told him to come back tomorrow. She had another one the next day and my son took her back to the vet. The vet adjusted the medication, and now one year later she is seizure free. She will be on medication the rest of her life, but it is not expensive. My son does not have a lot of money for huge vet bills, but there were no extensive and expensive tests. He did have to monitor the dog to ensure the medicine worked. The only side effect from the medication is that it makes them a little sleepy for about 3 weeks until they get used to it. I hope this helps….

    • Thank you, everyone! I am just going to watch her carefully. If these seizures happen again, and more often – closer together, I will take her in for some meds. Whew, I hope she doesn’t have anymore, I felt so helpless as there was nothing I could do as it was going on. She seems fine today.

  35. The system started going this way in the earlier 1900s. When the federal reserves was put into play, when gold was confiscated from the people. I don’t blame current generations. It was the silent generation that agreed to this and caused this. I understand most of them didn’t know how to read and write or that is the impression I get from that generation. They had women very opressed.

    By allowing social security to be withdrawn from our pay they used that step to withdraw taxes directly from us. Government should not be allowed to directly tax people no ifs ands or buts about it. Freedom must mean freedom. Not allowing your religious views to determine what should be legal or illegal. If something I do soesn’t affect you or anybody else than why do you have the right to tell me what happens to my body. You can say this about sex, abortions, smoking, sugar, salt, drugs. If what I do doesn’t affect you why should your religious views dicate what I can do with my life.

    We must not vote for politians because they share our religious beliefs but because they share our beliefs for freedom. Our Taxes should not go to forgein aid unless they want to report back the profits from the federal reserves bank that loans these countries money. Why take from our poor to give to their rich. No corporate welfare. Why are we putting mom and pops businesses out of business to have tax payers support corporations. Any drugs that are developed using grant money from the tax payers need to be sold at cost to us. Though I don’t even know if we should have grants. I don’t support property taxes for schools. I rather schools and local government as well as federal and state government be supported by sales tax and tariffs. I do not support extra taxes for taboo items like smoking and drinking.

    We need a small government not a huge government. Government should enforce contracts. We need a small army not one where we have people stationed in every country. Our public welfare needs to wean people off and teach budgeting skills. I do believe it is the job of churches and charties to help those that are less fortunate not government not the tax payers. We should go back to being tribes not nuclear families.

    We should be educated about natural cures/healthy foods. We should communicate more in person and rely less on internet. We should seek inner peace and compromise. Education should be the parents responsiblity. Feeding the people if some one truly can’t feed themselves soup kitchens or food pantries. I’m agnostic. I blame the master minds that have been trying for hundreds of years to have the fall of the united states as well have done the same to Europe (or at least their fathers, grandfathers, and previous generations). I blame the congressmen back in the early 1900s that waited til there peers left and signed into law the federal reserve acts and the president that signed it into law. That the great depression was a scientific experiment.

    We must learn to think for our selves. We must learn to communicate. We must learn to be resourceful. People use to have war gardens don’t know if I am remembering that correctly. We must not police the world. I know my views may differ from others it’s just my point of view.

    • Thanks for sharing your ideas.

    • I agree on a lot of what you say. Thanks for sharing, we all need less government. Only thing about abortions it takes someone’s life, so I don’t believe it is “a woman’s” body to do as she pleases when there is two bodies to consider.

      • Personally I would never have an abortion unless medically needed too ie ectopic pregnancy. But I do not believe I have the right to determine what is best for every woman either. Why force women to have kids they don’t want? I rather abort a unwanted fetus than for an innocent baby or child to be beaten and hurt. I would never wish the hurt of abandonment or abuse on a child.

        Though if we want to ban abortion shouldn’t we ban jacking off? Million of half cells die each time it happens. What about periods should we ban them as well because they too kill half cells?

        How about the woman who has a sponetanious abortion or miscarriage? Will she be thrown in jail for child endangerment, neglect, and abuse? When we classify something unborn having more rights or superseding rights to those borns we make all women of child bearing age criminals and men must once again protect us from ourselves. And yes women have been arrested for having miscarriages some after admitting to considering abortion early in the pregnancy some for snorting coke while pregnant convicted of infanticide. No I do not believe abortion should be outlaw because once you do you are saying women that are of child bearing age are inferior to the rest of the population.

  36. Whew. Took my niece to an appointment yesterday. She had been in a car accident, hit from behind at a stop, hard enough to chip bones in her neck. Now she is terrified to drive long distances (read – across town)… Unfortunately, she is a sheeple. She is able to work but would rather the gobermint takes care of her. Living on food stamps, child support and alimony (for two more years); yet has all the newest clothes, gets mani-pedi care every few weeks, buys food to go from fancy restaurants instead of cooking. Well, she saw our new gate going up and asked why. So we had a brief chat about coming hard times. She came out and asked if things really get that bad, can she come live in my basement? I told her only if she had something to contribute; that I expected her NOT to come empty-handed, looking for us to support/pamper her as that won’t happen. She would have to be on security patrol, clean up animal poop, pull weeds, help with harvest, help build fences, etc. She became a bit pale. She has a compulsive, non-disciplined son with hydrocephaly who pretty much runs wild (he is 8). Seriously, I broke out in a sweat just thinking of the chaos. I love her and her son but… what a choice to make, huh? If it is an EMP, no worries. They live an hour by car, by expressway from us. Can’t see them hiking here.

    • That’s a tough one. I mean, what do you do about longtime friends and family that you love, but that are incompetent or a liability for one reason or another. Other people’s undisciplined kids are a huge hassle.

    • OOPS! That was suppose to read ‘microcephaly’ not hydrocephaly. Stupid auto correct!!!

  37. If there is a complete collapse , I can see things getting very feudal for awhile . Good news is ……..that typically doesn’t last very long and its in the best interest of the people and remaining authority of an area or nation to move past that as fast as possible and rebuild /organize . In a civil war situation , the winner usually makes a ” purge ” of those deemed disloyal or possible problem for the fledgling nation . This even happened after our revolution …….many Torries were sent packing weather they were actually involved in the conflict or not …….they were simply deported .

  38. Uncle Charlie says:

    The Big Bang theory and God are NOT mutually exclusive, except for Stephen Hawkings perhaps.

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