Questions and Answers With The Wolf Pack : Seeking Gun Advise

Question from Anonymous

I have a question for the Wolf Pack gun gurus. We are thinking about adding to our small collection of arms. Both my dh and I have 9 mm handguns. I have a Glock and he has a Springfield. We already have a couple of Ruger 10/22s and some shotguns. We have a good supply of ammo for the 9mm and .22 LR. And we’ve been steadily building 00 buck for our shotguns.

We already have two long guns, one 30.06 and one Russian sniper rifle. We only have a couple of boxes of ammo for these. My daughter is a good shot with both of these. But my dh and I find them difficult to shoot.

I am posting under “Anonymous” because I don’t exactly want to advertise what we have. But I feel it is necessary background information for the question my dh and I want to ask.

We are thinking about getting a couple of fancy rifles. My dh wants an AR. He shot a friend’s AR and was pleased with the accuracy and range. What do you all recommend? I am leaning toward a Kel Tec Sub 2000, primarily because we have a lot of 9 mm already. I like the idea of having one of each.

Now, here’s where our lack of knowledge comes in. I imagine that the Kel Tec would be good for defending our homestead at a range of 100 yards or less but that the AR would be good for longer range shooting.

Our primary concern is dealing with looters after an economic collapse. We want to be able to defend our home. Do you all think an AR and a Kel Tec Sub 2000 would complement each other? What would you advise?

Comments

  1. If your going to buy two long guns, i would buy a keltec with glock grip, and an AR for longer range. In my own circumstance, there would never be a need or an opportunity to take a shot further than 100 yards so i would but two 9mm carbines, weather it be keltec or berreta, i would try and make my 9mm rifles and pistols be of the type that they could share magazines. I dont where you are or what the circumstances surrounding your home or BOL are, but i live on the outskirts of a very small town and the only way i could take a shot further than 100 yards would be to shoot down the road.

    • I agree with BC. If you are going to get more long guns, those would be my pick. I have a friend that likes both the Kel-Tec folding rifles, one in 9mm and the CU-16C in 223.

      Your problem with your current long guns my be the length of the stock. Most people actually shoot rifles with shorter stocks better. Since my wife is short, I’ve been working on this for a number of years. I can shoot a standard rifle fine, in a shirt. But for hunting up here I am wearing an additional layer or 2, so the shorter stocks work very well for us.

      My only personal issue with the Sub 2000 is physical; I can’t get my chubby cheek down far enough on the stock to use the “iron” sights. I’m okay with the red dot my friend has put on his. Getting one for yourself, to use with your Glock makes sense. There is also a rifle called the “Just Right” Carbine that is build along the style of an AR and uses Glock mags.

      • JP,

        Yes, I think that’s it–the length of the stock. And they are very heavy. The 30.06 was my dh’s father’s gun and the Mosin Nagant is really old as well. My dh has keep them up in perfect shape. But they have big, heavy and difficult to shoot.

        • Anin:

          The guns you are looking at are good, but I think you might want to look at something in a larger caliber before you spend the money. I’m not sure what brand/model the 30-06 is, but you should look for a youth length stock. If it is a Remington, they make them both at the factory and aftermarker. I’d go with the factory because they use the “R3″ recoil pad. It is a rebranded Limb Saver pad. IMO the best on the market for doing what they are supposed to do. I have them on every rifle I can put one on. Let someone know (or me) know what the make and model is and we should be able to help.

    • I believe the 22LR will be the most common round available and easy to carry.

  2. Spend your $$$ on range time and ammo not guns. You already possess much more than most people have. Handguns are for concealment. Shotguns and rifles (dependent on range) are for hunting/defense. A 30.06 should take care of business out to 500+ yards. The Nagant with optic is an excellent rifle with the right ammo.
    The Keltec advantage is a small package with a little longer range. Only if you are proficient with your existing arms would I purchase new weapons. Practice and ammo make safety.

    • Enzo Pamronan says:

      Hear! Hear!

      Ammo first. Then maybe a course at Front Sight or Gunsite. Remember each new gun in a different caliber requires stocking adequate ammo for it.

      ARs are overrated, they shoot a pipsqueak round (a “mouse phart” round to quote Col Cooper). Many preppers, as are many anti-gunners, are bowled over by the bada&& looks. Your plain ol’ 30-30 lever action puts much more knockdown power on the target. Also, when calm returns (and it will) you will be called upon to answer for shooting up the countryside. “How, Mrs. Jones, were you able to determine that poor Mr. Smith was a threat to you when he was over 200 yards away?”

      9mm is plenty adequate for self-defense. I would buy one more. And stock up on the best defense ammo you can find that functions well in your gun.

      • Agreed. But the million dollar question: how much ammo is enough? We are working on getting 10,000 both .22 LR and 9 mm. And we would like 2000 00 Buck.

        • Thomas The Tinker says:

          Anonymous… Ammunition is a Commodity. With or without a SHingTF situation it is a dynamic liquid asset. Store it dry and cool. Don’t discount what a fella said about cutting down your own birdshot… old cryons work well. Take notice of what most LEO load Dept. SGs with. Also take a look at your choice of ‘slugs’ and some of the heavier turkey and goose shells in 2 3/4″.. B, BB, BBB etc.

      • Interesting that one gentleman says the AR is overrated and is a “pipsqeak”(mouse phart) round, then goes on to say the 9mm is plenty adequate. The 9mm is another ‘pipsqueak mouse phart’ round.(Also according to Col Cooper).
        Be that as it may, the AR-15 or the Ruger Mini 14, have light recoil and are easy to shoot. I disagree that you have to spend over a thousand dollars to get an adequate one. I built mine for under $400 and it’s seen over 5,000 rounds so far with nary a hiccup. Extremely accurate, too.
        The .30-06 and the Mosin Nagant are extremely viable rounds for long distance. I have 2 Garands and a Mosin. Great guns. If you really don’t feel you can get comfortable with the two rifles you have, then, by all means, go to a .223/5.56 caliber. A .30-.30 lever action is also a good brush gun. And for real long range and penetration, I use a 300 Winchester Mag with 3-9x scope.
        Why do I have so many different calibers? The right tool for the job. Why does a golfer have so many clubs? I’ve yet to see a golfer run around with just a putter and a driver.

        Anyway, your first consideration should be what you feel comfortable with, both price-wise and shooting-wise.

        • Enzo Pamronan says:

          Rifle rounds and handgun rounds are two different animals and have entirely different performance profiles.

          Almost all handgun rounds perform the same, the statistics on lethality and stop probability are the same for 32 to 45 caliber. All are severly lacking when compared to rifle rounds. Choose whichever strikes your fancy and it will perform about the same as all the others.

          Rifle rounds show far greater variability in performance. More variability but all still markedly superior to pistol rounds.

          I have been in the “gun business” since the mid-70’s including years in uniform on the streets and years selling gear. Anecdote, fashion, what they see on
          tv, and what they think will make them look “bad” drive most sales.Not evaluation and logic.

        • Hey, all I know is that someone else can test for themselves how effective they are – not me!

    • 2knives,

      I am proficient with everything except the long guns. They are just too long and heavy for me. Our immediate concern is to get something that I can shoot that has a longer range than my Glock and the 870. But I don’t think I need anything that goes out more than 100 yards. I would rather hunker down and let the danger pass than take shots from someone that far away.

      • Lots of advice. The 9MM carbines, like you mentioned seem to me to meet YOUR needs. One not to discount is the Hi-Point carbine. At $300, this is a bargain. Easy to find. Kel-Tec, good luck finding one. Beretta, Just Right, same story, find one, pay a lot.

        Now some will disparage the Hi-Point. Most of those that do, have never fired one.

        Here’s the deal with that:

        1. Ugly
        2. Reliable
        3. Uses easy to find, cheap magazines.
        4. Cheap.
        5. Keep it oiled, it will rust.
        6. Not too easy to clean, learning curve.
        7. Accurate.
        8. Did I mention cheap and ugly?

        • JPD,
          I concur on the Hi-Point and would be interested in either the Sub2K or the Hi-Point if I could find one. You state n part, “Easy to find”, and although the make them only an hour from here, they are impossible to find. When I read your #4, I would change the word from Cheap to Inexpensive, and at an MSRP of $320 they are indeed a good gun.
          As for the company and its products, I have a friend who bought a 9mm handgun about 20 years ago and it was a heavy clunky thing. He recently (about 18 months ago) bought another 9mm handgun from them, and it is a modern polymer lower, reliable and accurate handgun. Hi-Point has come a long way, and for those on a short budget, can fill your needs in the “Bullets” area of the 3B’s.

    • I agree with getting more ammo and range time – solid advise. I’m not in total agreement with the mouse phart of a 5.56 round, as the wounds created are pretty devastating, but that debate opens a whole new can of worms, doesn’t it? :-)

  3. I would suggest you take a good looong look at something a little bigger than your block, If I was seriously looking at a defensive rifle I would chose one that would do everything I wanted, PENETRATION, ACCURACY,RATE OF FIRE,RELIABILITY you cannot beat a good 7.62 x 51(308) long gun military style rifle such as a H.K. 91(for example) and another in .223 (another mil-spec rifle) for yourself I would hesitate to shoot inside because of room and noise which marks your position. Can you tell me that you’re not going to leave your house AT ALL during times of depression(economic) no you cannot, I cannot see how a mean looking rifle in a pistol caliber will be of much good. Sorry if my rant gets on your nerves but your question is a good one that deserves a good,fair,and honest answer.

    • Well, I suggest you test these proponents of 9mm rifles,I shot one for years 9mm uzi was the bomb! So I guess I know something! Go out were you shoot, mark off 100 yd.s from a old car, Then shoot at same car on the body and tell me how you did-any penetrate? Remember Tyler Smith? you know the idiot that’s going to get preppers for they’re property, he used body armor (albeit homemade) didn’t he?

      • Another thing you can carry 5 – 223s for every 3 9mm rounds not much but when you figure that in hundreds it adds up.

    • Ronald,

      I appreciate your feedback. We do have a lot of research to do before buying anything.

  4. I agree that you have a good start in the weapons category, I can understand you may want an AR, lots of good choices, I would not go with a a semi for the 9mm, it will go through a lot of ammo quick, limited range, I would pick up the AR of your choice and then get a ranch rifle as your secondary semi, and both in the same ammo choice, .223 has good range and little recoil.

  5. DH says to tell you that the AR will have good accuracy and stopping power out to 300+ yards (and DH can shoot his out to 500 yards) and will penetrate 1/4 cold rolled steel at 200 yards. They are reliable guns and the lack of recoil will help with accuracy.

    Be careful not to buy the $500 (Bushmaster, etc.) knock offs. To get a good one, you’ll probably have to spend $1,000+, but since you are looking for defending your homestead, and preferably don’t want them in close enough to shoot with your 9mm, the AR with a range of 300 to 500 yards is the way to go.

    Go with the AR and one that will take both .223 and .556.

    • NWGhostrider says:

      Just in addition to DW, your shot guns are about the best defense gun gun you will have out to 100 yards, so I would not worry about getting a Kel-Tec, just get more 00 buck shot.

      • Enzo Pamronan says:

        +++1!

      • Please tell me – what are you shooting in your shotgun that give you the impression that it is “the best defense gun you will have out to 100 yards”? While I love my Mossy 500 better than dirt, I would never claim it as a 100 yard gun, but perhaps I have not found the correct ammo in these last 60 years.

        • DrKronk,

          I was supposing the Kel Tec would be good up to 100 yards out and that the AR would have a much longer range.

          • I own a keltec sub2k and they are just what you say you are looking for. I’ve found them to be reliable, light weight, and have great warranty. Tests show that +P+ ammo in 9mm have close to the same power as 45 cal.

        • Nightshiftsucks says:

          Hickok 45 on youtube was shooting shotgun slugs out to 230 yards.

      • Msgtretired says:

        Yes where pray tell does 1 find his magical 100 yd ammo for a shotgun?

        • Thomas The Tinker says:

          The first three “Magical 100 yard ammo(s) for a shotgun” that come to mind are…

          1#… Brenneke 12ga. KO Slug. 437 grs. ranges out to over 60 yards with standard brass dot sights. 100+ yards with a set of express rifle sights.

          2#… Brenneke 12 ga. “Black Magic”. 430 grs. ranges to 100 yards with standard brass dot sights. 100+ yards with a set of express rifle sights.

          #3… Brenneke 12 ga. “Red Magic”. 437 grs. ranges to 80+ yards with standard brass dot sights. 100+ yards with express rifle sights.

          12 gauge = 18.53mm. 20 gauge = 15.6mm
          Take your shotgun to an IDPA 3 gun match and you will see more than a few shooters that use the SG on the rifle courses as they have no trouble at all putting a slug on target at ‘close’ rifle ranges. My favorite is the 20 guage KO Slug out of my Mossy. At TDI I run my Mossy 590A1 14″ and place my KO Slugs center mass with little trouble. Its all a matter of practice…. sight picture and trigger management…. IMHO

        • There are many reports of 00 buck being able to still be effective at 100 yards. I have some DDupleks slugs that are awesome, but difficult to get. Check their web sight.

  6. Rider of Rohan says:

    Given your circumstances, and your husband’s favorable impression of the AR, I would go with it. And a small 9mm carbine that complements your other weapons would be great for you. Two great choices IMHO. Just be sure you have plenty of am-mo for your other weapons before adding new ones. They don’t make good clubs.

    • Rider – I’ll bet they would make good clubs – but I’d rather not let anyone get that close :-)

      • Rider of Rohan says:

        Yep, if you’re using them for clubs, you’re totally screwed. Might add a bayonet, though that wouldn’t be a whole lot better. Remember the old adage, “never bring a knife, or sword, to a gun fight”. I get that picture in my mind of the bad guy performing all the sword tricks right before Harrison Ford guns him down in the first “Indiana Jones” movie. LMAO.

  7. insadjuster says:

    You pose a very good question. I can understand the preference for the pistol caliber carbines, but like Ronald’s comment, penetration and accuracy, and rate of rife are definitely concerns. Regarding the penetration aspect, what if the looter / assailant is wearing easily obtainable soft body armor? You might knock him down, but he is not out for the count. If you knock him down but there is no penetration, you have to get too close to the threat to eliminate it, exposing you or your family members to unneeded danger. I like the AK and AR platforms and both are easily obtainable and dependable. I have a couple AK’s and have become proficient with them because most of our enemies use them. I have a couple of AR’s because our guys use them (well, they have full auto M4’s and we have semi). Ammo for both are plentiful. Since you already have an ’06 and a russian “sniper”, I kind of have a compromise to offer. You have your long range pretty much taken care of as well as your short range. Have you thought about an AR in the 6.8SPC caliber? Basically the bullet performs as a .243. It has a flatter trajectory than the 5.56 or .223 cartridge. While .223 and 5.56mm will get you out to 500 yards, the 6.8 will get you out to about 800 yards. A 6.8 AR with collapsible stock would work good for short, medium, and long range shots. I once heard that your pistol was to fight your way back to your rifle, that you should not have set down anyway. While the pistols are great for very short range shooting – realistically 15 yards or less, you will need something comfortable to shoot that will allow you to have sustained shooting capabilities at medium to long distances. I personally think the 6.8 SPC fits the bill. The only issue about 6.8 is that there is no surplus military ammo out at this time for it. You will have to pay decent money for the ammo, but I think the trade off is worth it. You could reload your used brass and save money there – across all calibers you shoot. On another note, you mentioned that you and your husband found the russian rifle uncomfortable. There are several aftermarket stocks for the russian rifles. You may look into one that gives you more comfort when shooting. I found a stock for mine that has a detachable box magazine and has an adjustable cheek weld and length of pull. I’m not an expert, but that’s my 2 cents worth.

    • insadjuster,

      That’s it. I want a medium range rifle that is accurate and can fire shots rapidly.

      • how about a sks? they hold 10 rounds ,and you can get a aftermarket synthetic stock that uses ak mags.It shoots the ruskie 7.62×39 which is a good hog/deer round in my area.They are kinda expensive for what they used to be,but so are cigs and gas.

        • I stopped at a gunstore friday. I had to go to the big city to take a friend to an appointment. I saw a nice ria 45 auto and a bolt action 243 with a 3 to 9 scope on it and a mossy 500 shortbarrell. If I had the money I would have loved to buy the 3 guns,they would have good spots in my survival arsenal. With 2000 dollars I would have been able to buy all 3 guns with plenty of ammo for every gun. I was wondering if soft body armor would stop a fmj 30-06 round at 22 yards? I am not knowing.

  8. well-armed rooikat says:

    I’d recommend one of the many 16″ barrel ARs, or a 16″ Saiga .223. Both light, both accurate.
    For a 9mm carbine, maybe a Marlin Camp 9, or a Ruger PC9. Both of those are the bee’s knees; the Ruger is probably a bit more reliable.
    A nice 10/22 would wrap it all up. Plus, a 10/22’s action is very similar to the PC9, so practice would be a wee bit cheaper.

  9. Enzo Pamronan says:

    I oufitted a couple of private security teams back in the day. One with the commercial semi-auto Uzi and one with MP5-clone HK 94. Both looked way cool, both were pleasant, even fun, to shoot. But check the Ballistics By The Inch website and you will see that longer barrels do not gain you any ballistic performance with lnger barrels in 9mm. You just get bulkier, heavier guns giving you the same performance as your 9mm pistol.

    Stock up on 00 Buck, maybe start accumulating slugs, add a 12 gauge with a ghost ring rifle sight. That will get you farther.

  10. I would never presume to tell someone else what arms to buy. I will say: you do not have enough ammo. Invest in reloading. I started with “Lee Loaders” and a rubber mallet. With a scale, you can load quality loads for bolt action rifles. For semi autos and levers you need better equipment. You might consider casting lead bullets for handguns.

    • I second the mallet. I started with a Lee Loader and on the 3rd round tried to load my thumb. Since I was living at home and Dad didn’t have a mallet, I used a 16oz ball peen hammer. Stopped reloading until I got an RCBS press (which I still have after 40 years).

  11. I,m not a fan of the AR platform or the 223 , its a personal choice . For a more “fancy ” rifle , I would go for the ones that require minimal maintenance . You cant go wrong with an AK , get a good one , another rifle I would suggest is the FN-FAL , shop around , there are as many variations of the FAL as there are the AK , some are very heavy and some are light , both can be had at a reasonable price , both are reliable is bad conditions . The AK is famous for being filthy and neglected and still function , the FAL is good as well , it was called ” the right arm of the free world ” for a reason , almost all the NATO countries used a version of it for decades , and a 308 is a good powerful round .

    • I was wondering when someone would come up with this suggestion. I like the SKS myself. 7.62X39 is a great round. While I don’t really consider it accurate out past a couple of hundred yards ( or I’m not ) for anything further that 30.6 they have is a 3-400 yard gun all day long.

      • Thank you , the 7.62×39 was never designed for long range , either was the AK , both were designed with the very painful lessons the Russians learned from WW2 , they were meant for close in or house to house combat , which is what the Russians found themselves in, more often than not . If you use either in its role that it was designed for , you will be pleased . Its like complaining that your PF-9 sucks at 100 yards ( if it will even shoot that far ) , when the weapon was designed for ranges of under 30 yards . The SKS is a fun weapon , I have the Ruger Mini 30 , that is a good close in gun , the mini gets a bad rap from the mistakes of earlier models , but now they are fine , I shoot mine mine almost every week , not a problem , I shoot old school cowboy , which means ” If I cant see it with my naked eye , I dont need to be shooting at it ” And ” if its too far for iron sights , I probably dont need to be shooting at it either ” lol .

      • If I’m not mistaken , I think the SKS actually saw combat in the last months of WW2 .

        • You’re not mistaken. It did see action, first against the Germans, then against the Japanese. However, very limited action, as so few had been made by the end of the war.

          I also agree with the AK/SKS/Mini-30 option. I’ve seen AKs so full of gunk an AR would choke, and still keep firing. I used to teach a class to deploying troops where, after shooting the OPFOR AKs for a couple of hundred rounds of blanks, we’d take them apart, grap a handful of sand to clean them, knotted bootlace down the barrel and some motor oil from a dipstick to lube, then shoot of a couple more mags of blanks. Try that with an AR! Also, there are two aftermarket accessoried for the AK I highly recommend to tame any perceived recoil issues – a buffer, and a recoil pad for AKs, both available from Amazon. With a shoulder injury, recoil is now a big issue for me, and I have trouble with bare metal butt plates now.

          • Thank you , I understand about shoulder injuries , I blew mine out one time , and its one of those things that take forever to get back to full use , its one of those parts of the body that get incessant use , even when you baby it .

  12. j.r. guerra in s. tx. says:

    My concern with the 9mm carbine is not the design but the function. Instead of that, I would find a .357 lever carbine. Ammunition is very common and much more versatile than the 9mm (which is why I would go that route). I understand wanting to stick to the ammunition you already have, but in this case, think it is worth it. I also agree with JP in MT – short stocked firearms do seem to shoot more accurately for me as well. It tucks in tighter and maybe that is why that is so. ??? Also easier to shoot when wearing heavier clothing.

    Fwiw, I’ve been pretty happy with the Hi-Point 9mm carbine I’ve owned for quite a while (long before Kel-Tec and others were available) – ugly as all get out, but it is reliable, light and points very naturally for me, the sights line up great for my build. Its not a primary firearm though, its for fun.

    Good luck with your choice.

    • Enzo Pamronan says:

      +1 on the 357 Magnum carbine. Out of an 18″ barrel 158 grain magnum loads are making over 1800 FPS. For a 158 grain 35 caliber slug that is equal to a 30-30 out to 125 yards.

      A couple of advantages of lever actions. Te, t\Onhey are extremely “user frindly,” very comfortable to use and to control. Two, they are almost invisible, no antagonistic profiles for your neighbors. “But, Enzo, they are not combat proven!” I sincerely doubt we will be seeing large-scale field operations in our neighborhoods or retreats, more like guerrilla skirmishes. The currently fashionable techniques of shooting at your targets while advancing on them is going to be viewed as aggressive pursuit when the courts open again. Can you defend chasing down your subjects while shooting at them? Can you defend shooting at a subject 200 yards or more away and then penetrating ten houses with a round that misses its target?

      Society has a “normalcy bias” otherwise described as “revert to the mean.” Complete TEOTWAWKI is far less likely than short-, or even medium-, term problems following which law, order, and prosecution can be expected to resume.

  13. There is a lot to be said for having a long gun and side arm duo in the same pistol caliber when considering logistics, especially when they both use the same mags. Combine that with the fact that many of the 9mm defensive rounds available today, when fired through a longer barreled carbine, will give astonishing results. The Hornaday Critical Duty (NOT Critical Defense) for instance, in the 9mm, 135 gr +P round gives you 1110 FPS, 369 ft. lbs., out of a 4 inch barrel – just imagine what it would do out of a 16″ barrel ! It is designed to penetrate just about any imaginable cover (it has passed ALL the FBI penetration tests) you may encounter. If I were to be primarily in an urban environment, where there are few long shots (say 100 yards+), the carbine/pistol combo using the same mags could very well be my go to weapon set up. Add this to the fact that you can carry much more ammo, there’s less recoil than all but perhaps .223 (so that shooters of all sizes will have no problem controlling the weapon) and the simplicity of operation of the standard 9mm carbine as compared to a AR15 platform, it does have a lot going for it. One other factor is appearance – most people who see an AR15, the ‘black’ gun, have negative connotations, whereas the more traditional 9mm carbine (where the mag is hidden in the grip) is much less alarming. Depending on the nature of the ‘event’, this could well mean the difference between receiving unwanted attention and being able to slide by, virtually unnoticed. Keep in mind: your objective is to survive, not pick fights with anyone you see. Good luck no matter which weapons you chose!

    • MacTex,

      These are some of the things I was considering. The Kel Tec would use the same ammo and mags as my Glock. And we already have 4000 rounds 9 mm stocked up.

      • I love my Kal-Tec 2000. I have owned mine for about 5 years. It is the 9mm and easily switches with all Glock magazines. Easy to shoot. My only complaint is it gets dirtier than most everything else I own. Definitely not as easy to clean as a Glock!

        I love shooting it with a 30 round magazine.

  14. You need a battle rifle. I have an AR and love it, but if I had to choose one SHTF rifle it would be an AK.
    I would sell the 30-06 and get either an AK or an AR. Either of those will be a lot cheaper to stockpile ammo for and a lot easier for you to shoot recoil-wise.

  15. Msgtretired says:

    Guess I will defend the AR-15. It is the @$$hole weapon everyone has one so should you. When SHTF and all thes weapons begin being used and abused they are going to start breaking down. The most availble parts are going to be AR-15. The most availble ammo is going to be .223……MY suggestion 3 cheap AR-15 $700 will get you a fine one. And buy ammo monthly like you pay for insurance. Stop paying into a 401k and buy ammo that’s what I did 4 years ago. This country is doomed all the signs are there. $17trillion in debt and a military stripped of it’s rights to show you are a christian. FORCED to buy insurance. FORCED to have a smart meter. 2nd amendment under attack daily. 4th amendment is gone. I served 23 years and had a Bible everywhere I went. If I was still in I’d be being busted weekly until they forced me out or sent to Leavenworth. I am 46 years old get a pension at age 60 national debt by then will be over $32trillon. SO EVERY PATRIOT SHOUDL BE BUYING AR-15. So we can share ammo and parts just as our military does.

  16. Ohio Surveyor says:

    Right now there are at least 100 conflicts/wars all over the world. Everyone of them has one thing in common….those people are using the AK-47…and most of the time they are using them on both sides of the conflict. since 1947 the AK is the go to rifle, and ammo is cheep.

    • That , and even though its a ” mid range ” cartridge , its still a 30 cal. projectile going downrange vs. a 22 .

    • Msgtretired says:

      You can go all over the world been there done that. I am prepareing for the economic collapse of AMERICA. The most common weapons are AR-15 and probably Glocks. When all of the unprepared people die wating and begging for their govt to do something or place them in FEMA camps. I am preparing with my local militia to survive and rebuild the Constitutional REPUBLIC . If you are no prepping with at least 16 people you are failing. It takes 16 people to run a 24 hour operation. If you are not in survival mode 24/7 you will fail. You need 16 people so each person can have down time R and R , share chores so it does’nt get old. And continual training you need to know the guy or gal to your left and tights job too.

      • You also have to consider the fact that this government has made more enemies around the world , with its constant interference , than you can count on your fingers and toes , that any civil war we have here will be a prime opportunity for some pay back from other countries . It is not far fetched an idea that China , Russia , or a host of other nations not happy with our government , to do the exact same thing we do in other countries . Which is to supply arms and perhaps even ” advisors ” to the side fighting the current government , it would be an easy matter for them , especially when you consider the joke of a border we have with Mexico . You can depend on the fact that there are elements from other countries out to do us harm , already here and waiting , thanks to the lax security we have with Mexico .

    • The day of the (cheap) AK in the USA is over! With the import restrictions on guns, parts and ammo now is not the time to try and start from scratch with an AK.

      Every mom and pop machine shop behind every rock in this country makes mil spec AR parts and that makes the AR a smarter choice for anyone just arriving at that fork in the road.

      I wish it wasn’t so, but I am convinced we are unlikely to see floods of AKs again in our lifetimes.

      • Rider of Rohan says:

        Yep, I couldn’t agree more, SheepDog. And soon, very soon I believe, we will see even more restrictions on imported guns of every variety. If one is depending on them, now is the time to stock up, or better yet, change gears. I decided to change gears in Jan. 2009, and got rid of all my Warsaw Pact toys.

      • Actually , cheap is kind of a relative term these days , I have seen plenty of AKs for under $1000 still to be had , but like you say , this may change depending . But yeah , the days of getting a top end one for 3 -5 hundred are pretty much gone .

  17. Please don’t underestimate the effectiveness of the 10/22’s you have, particularly with 25 round Ruger magazines and CCI Velocitors. Head shots can be made quickly, effectively, and efficiently at normal CQB ranges. They are one gun everyone should own.

    The Keltec is available in a configuration that accepts Glock magazines. One caliber, one magazine, two guns. I own several and can attest to their effectiveness and versatility. I would consider trading the second 9mm for another 9mm Glock, for the sake of simplification and interchangeability. You are now stocking ammunition and magazines in a single caliber for three guns.

    The 7.62x54R is an excellent round. I would sell the 06 and purchase a second Nagant and 880 rounds of ammunition in sealed battle packs. You now have two matching, highly effective long range weapons and a good supply of interchangeable ammunition for both. OR, trade them both for a used AR platform rifle, several magazines, and as much ammunition as you can find on sale (your attacker(s), adversaries will more than likely be using AR style weapons. Their ammunition will work for you as well). Battlefield pickups are always welcome additions, however, you must prevail in the encounter in order to ‘pick them up.’ Good training with a good Instructor and practice should be high on your list of things to do.

    Add a Knoxx Spec-Ops LOP adjustable, recoil reducing stock to one of your shotguns, and everyone in the family will be able to use it effectively. Purchase a used field length barrel with interchangeable choke tubes to add even more versatility. Learn to make ‘Cut Shells’ (search YouTube) from standard field loads, and you will be able to create dual purpose shells. Low brass 7-1/2 or 8 field loads are available in bricks of 100 rounds at Walmart for about $25.00.

    You should make a conscious effort to limit the number of calibers/gauges/magazines you have to purchase and inventory. The fewer, the better.

    I would not want to be the poor soul up against a trained individual in CQB who was armed with a 10/22 and who understands tactics and the concept of shot placement. It is rarely the hardware, and most often the skill of the operator that determines the outcome in a force on force encounter.

    I wish you the best of luck in your decision making. Fair winds and following seas, my friend.

    • My dh will never sell the 30.06. It was his dad’s rifle and he grew up shooting it. It has a really nice scope on it–Leupold VX-III 6.5 20×50 mm LR and he had a mount designed so they didn’t have to drill into the rifle. We are considering getting a newer carbine that we can put the scope on.

      • I would also never give up the 06. There is more to fire arms then the 223/5.56/9mm/40 cal nwo rounds. Some people may get to shoot an animal that weighs more then 50 lbs.I would not discount the 357 or 44 mag for survival.Read up on Elmer Kieth. He killed elk with the 44 magnum,he never killed one with a 9 mm or 223.

  18. Consider the AR that is in 9mm for you, and the regular 5.56 AR for him. You will have some common parts, and accessories for one rifle will usually work on the other one as well.

    • Thomas:

      Having both a 223 and a 9mm AR I can tell you that there is some commonality in external parts but not enough to justify the expense. The rifles are very expensive (most are over $1000) and magazines commonality makes much more sense, at least to me. I tried to buy an AR that uses Glock magazines a couple of years ago. Olympic was the only one that made one then, and it was on a 2 year back order. The others didn’t use common AR parts.

  19. Chuck Findlay says:

    I have a Marlin Camp-9, it’s a good gun, I think it’s important to have a rifle / handgun combo that shoots the same round. And while a 9-mm rifle will not turn the 9-mm handgun round into a rifle round, it’s easier to shoot a rifle accurately then it is a 4 inch handgun. It’s worth you having a 9-mm rifle as you already have the handguns.

    As far as shooting people 500 yards away as numerous preppers seem to think they need to do. It’s all BS talking. The US Government spends billions of dollars to make sure it will survive anything that’s going to come along. There will always be legal ramification of shooting someone as the government is not going away. You will NEVER be able to make the case that the person hundreds of yards away was a threat to your life and therefore you had to kill him. Even a 100-yard shot is going to be the same way. Any shot like this will be murder and you will go to jail. Ask yourself how well your survival plans are going to work out when you are in jail.

    You will probably be able to sell a 50 feet kill shot, but not much beyond that.

    People please quit taking Rawles and his Patriots book as a way of determining what will happen. Read FerFal’s book for a real idea of what did happen when a country goes down the money hole that we are likely heading for.

    And I agree that you need much more ammo,

    If you insist in the idea that you need or want a long range rifle, get a bolt action as it’s less expensive then an AR, and a bolt action is very accurate and deadly at long range, more so then an AR. Do some research into snipers of WWII, a sniper could (and did) keep a whole company tied down. A full auto gun will not do that. In fact WWII sniper when caught was not killed right away, he was beaten, and abused because he was seen as an assassin as he was able to kill people way beyond the ability of a normal solder.

    I have a Bolt action 223 Remington rifle (and a single-shot handgun) and both will do well as a sniper rifle if I ever needed them for that roll. Right now I use them to control the local woodchucks.

    If you have a bolt action 223 rifle and were any kind of shot with it you would easily be able to score hits on a persons head at 200 yards. But honestly I don’t see that as a realistic thing to prep for.

    Buy a 9-mm rifle and lots of ammo, never stop buying ammo. It’s as good as gold.

  20. If you don’t mind another caliber, you might consider a Winchester Model 73 Trapper (or Rossi/Umberti knock-off). Short barreled and chambered in .357, it holds 10 rounds, kick is minimal and works like a dream. Out to 100 yards, with self-defense loads, it will knock down just about any human. Brings out your inner John Wayne(tte)! My dw uses one. Deadly.

  21. Western_Reservist says:

    some advice from an “old-timer” of 70 God-given Summers:

    Q: What are both your visions like? Are one of you 20/20 and not the other? Problems with “glare” at night? The list goes on the older one gets.

    Eyesight and age changes a whole lot–believe you me!

    A: Figure out if you are both AOK with “iron sights” or need help with optics or even “red-dot” sights or even lasers as time and years wear on.

    reason I say this: 30 years ago I scoffed at shooters using anything other than military iron sights. now I am humbled by age and poorer eyesight.

    point being: some of the firearms I bought 30 years ago (and I still own) have no ‘reasonable’ ability to add/mount optics.

    play the “long” game. buy something which you are able to adapt as life, age, and experience befalls you. choose firearms that can adapt to your needs.

    I know of very few people whose eyesight gets better with age (altho there are exceptions, of course.)

    my vote: consider rifles with a quick and easy platform which allows “cheaters” for aiming and target acquisition.

    cheers!

    • Western_Reservist,

      I am so grateful to the Pack’s recommendations. It never occurred to me to think “long term” with guns. I have so much to take into consideration. Thank you.

  22. You really have all the weapons you need for Home defense.

    9mm in a long rifle is just that. it’s Pistol ammo in a long rifle and the 9 just doesn’t cut it. I’ve seen 9mm bounce off skulls.
    Your 30.06 and russian made is plenty for long range. In WWI the 1908 was know to kill at a 1000 yards 1908 springfield. But you will get 200-500 Yards easy with the correct ammo and scope.
    What your DH has is weapon envy. the AR looks bad BUT it’s up to you now the weapon to be bad.You both should find out why you can’t shoot well with the 30.06 and Russian cause you just might spend a $1000 bucks and find out you have the same problem. So fix your problem first with the weapons you have. Buy Great scopes, and a new composit stocks (most likely), Sling all your rifles and Shot guns if you have more then one shot
    gun cut one barrel down . For your Pistols I rec. 8 Mags per weapon. I also rec. have at least 1 – 2 thousand rounds per cal.
    If you don’t have good security you’ll not need a another 200 yard weapon or a spray and pray AR. You’ll be fighting in your hall ways and around corners of your homestead.So make sure all your pistols have Lasers all your shot guns lasers and flashlight attachments and pick up a couple of flack jackets from keep shooting.com . and low light glass’s. Also to do now when at home keep your pistol on you at all times if you don’t carry conceled Your best defense is having your weapon on you when you need it not in some draw.

  23. Thomas The Tinker says:

    Commonality.. commonality.. common…. ality!

    Keep it simple and keep the list short. Lotta the ‘Packers’ above have the right idea. The most common ‘battle rifles’ in the closets of America are in 5.56/223 and 7.62×39. The Most common pistol cal. is 9mm and the majority of launchers for the 9mm are made by Glock. I didn’t start to stock much else until I had my short list filled and knew how to put them to the designed use. Now…. I loves a wheel gun and a partner rifle… Mine are Rugers and leverguns.

    • This is your answer!

      You guys need to both be using the same mags/ammo for your pistols and your rifles/carbines

      In this country the most common is 9 mm and .223/5.56×45 for ammo and AR15 / STANAG, Glock 17 (All Glock 9mm’s will take a G17 mag) for magazines.

      SD

  24. Neophyte Troglodyte says:

    I would buy one or two M4 style AR15s, and a 9mm upper receiver for both. Then you could use either 5.56 or 9mm as the tactical situation or supplies warrant.

    • DOn’t forget to get a 9mm bolt with your lupper; and the magazine well adapter, and the new mags, and have a took to remove the magazine release to insert the mag well adaper.

      Yep, it’s not that easy. Plus the upper w/bolt will run you about $600. the adapter is another $50, and the mags run $25-30 each.

      That’s one of the main reason’s I recommend one of the newer rifles that use the same magazines as you pistol.

  25. Chuck Findlay says:

    I agree a revolver and lever gun is a good combo to have. I love my S&W (and Dan Wesson) revolver and my Marlin 357 Mag lever gun.

    But being they already have 2 9 mm pistols the 9 mm rifle is also a good way to go next.

  26. I don’t claim to be an expert or anything, but I did notice you referenced the 00 buckshot for the shotgun. I don’t know if you stock any other shells for it but it might be a good idea. Remember that a shotgun can do more than defend your home, it can also put supper on the table.

  27. I usually don’t post much, but since no one else has posted my recommendation, here we go:

    Rifles: You and DH can’t shoot your 30-06 or the Russian very well and don’t do well with long guns, so you shouldn’t get large caliber or heavy rifles, no FN-FAL or 6.8 ARs, or AKs, or more Mosins, or any other heavy long rifles. As you look at pistol caliber rifles or small rifle caliber rifles, you really have two that are military grade or have a long history, and are common cartridges available anywhere, that those are the .38/357 lever guns, and the AR in 223/5.56. The 9mm long guns do not have enough history of durability, nor are they common enough to ensure a supply of repair parts after the SHTF or guns/parts are banned.

    The AR in the M-4 configuration is used by men and women of every size and shape in the military, fires a mildly kicking bullet that will kill anything if you hit it right, has common parts that are readily available, is the best selling most common gun in the US, and if there ever is another war on US soil, will be the gun and caliber scavanged from the battle field. Solution: Buy 2 ARs in 223/5.56 and buy a common parts kit for both. 1000 rounds of 5.56 is currently available from AIM for about $410. + $15 shipping. Take some classes, get proficient. ARs are great for the close range and mid-range, and you’ll probably never need to shoot farther than that. Also, if you both have the same rifle, you’d both know the trigger pull and manual of arms on each others rifles in case you had to use them.

    Pistols: Glocks and Springfields are great, however in my house, we consolidate the primary guns, so we both have Glocks. That way the same parts kit will repair either of our pistols. Also, you’d both know the trigger pull and manual of arms on each others pistols in case you had to use them. I’d recommend consolidating. And get training. The pistol will probably be the only gun you will ever use in any event short of war or total collapse, make sure you know how to carry it, draw it, and shoot it.

    If you absolutely must have the same ammo for both guns, then I’d recommend 38/356 S&W wheel guns and Winchester or Marlin lever action rifles. Both have a long history of servicability and death dealing…

    But why limit yourself to 1800’s technology? Get 2 ARs and 2 Glocks, because the enemy will be armed with modern weapons, so you should be too.

  28. Oops, that should be “38/357 S&W wheel guns”

  29. (What I hope is a humorous response.)
    Dance with the one who brung you… nothin’ wrong with an ’06 or a 12 gauge up to 100 yards- after that, forget a 12.
    Already got a 9mm, and as already stated, ‘commonality compatability and cooperation’ of weapons type and ammunition is a serious advantage in any language. 9mm handgun and SUB 2K, good choices up to 100 yards. For ‘battlefield replenishment’, it’s doubtful you’d ever beat the .223, though the AK is right beside it, along with 9mm and .45 with the .40 quite a few steps behind.
    For simplicity of use and reliability, but giving it up in the ‘super accuracy’ department, the AK is impossible to beat. It’s a working man’s weapon hands down. For those who like to tinker with their toys, have decent accuracy and an American idea, the .223 is the way to go (though AKs can now be had in .223 caliber).
    This sounds more like a case of ‘wantitis’ and prepping as the reason for the symptoms.
    All the above are good suggestions… from the .357 rifle/pistol, to the 9mm/SUB2K, to the AK and the AR and even the .22.
    My suggestion: If you can justify the purchase, get what you really want the first time and you won’t be second guessing your choice (as much). Be sure you can find lots of ammo for them and stock up, buy your ‘practice’ ammo on the way to the range so as not to deplete stockpiles.

  30. Think long term for weapons, ammo, parts and mags.

    Think long term for your abilities.

    Right now both can be answered with Glock 9mm’s (All Glock 9mm’s will take G17 mags) and AR15 pattern weapons. Both are of a high enough quality to last a long time and are accurate and dependable given you buy build a good quality AR.

    They both have readily available parts, mags and ammo are easily worked on by you or others if you have the parts.

    They are also light and easy to use which will likely be more important 20-30 years from now, but should be considered now.

    The AR is also Lego like in its flexibility and will readily take optics once you decide your eyes are old enough to need them. It can be built short for easy handling or set up for surgical accuracy and at times you can do both at the same time. :)

    Keep you other weapons for family fun and specific situations they are useful in, but get something you can share mags/ammo between you when needed.

    As mentioned above commonality is crucial! Use what is common in your part of the world and have commonality among any one you are likely to stand beside in a fight.

    SD

  31. Rob in Ontario says:

    I agree with most of what was said above, the 30’06 is a great long range rifle I would suggest putting a bi-pod on it if its to heavy for you that way it steadies you for those long shots, the Russian rifle is good also for same reasons . Instead of an AR no one suggested an SKS , these are cheap well built rifles that use 7.62×39 round same as AK , you can install a plastic stock to lighten it and modifiy it to accept 20 round Magazines, I’m sure you could find 30 round

  32. Deadman Walking says:

    For self defense, I’d go with the AR platform but in many states the .223 is too small to use on game animals. The US Military went to the .308 round after many healthy young men found they could not handle the kick of the 30-06 and to lessen the kick further I’d recommend a semi-automatic to take up some of the recoil. They make an AR-10 that shoots .308 but my choice would be a FN-FAL. The .308 will take everything from deer to moose to bear to two legged critters.

    • Deadman Walking,

      We went to the gun store today. My dh really liked the AR 10 and the idea of .308. He already has the scope to put on it.

    • Plus the FAL has a gas adjusting screw to let you regulate recoil , and for different temperature conditions . I think its the only one that has that .

  33. I don’t know but have heard the 4th generation glocks will not work with older generation mags if release is on left.

  34. Chuck Findlay says:

    Kinda related to this post but then not really.

    A few days ago a customer invited me to go shooting with him at a local indoor range. He offered to pay for the range time.

    It was a 15-stall 50 foot indoor modern range. It was busy, we got there at 10:00 AM and did not shoot till 11:15 there is glass windows so you can see people shooting. What amazed me (and I see this every time I go to a public range) is the poor ability people have as to be able to shoot a gun and hit a target with any kind of group.

    At 25 foot many people shooting anything bigger then a 380 shoots a group measured in the area of a foot or so. And the few people that were shooting handguns at 50 feet were missing the person shaped target 1/2 of the time. Lots of expensive guns being shot and hitting nothing but air.I would be ashamed of missing a target that much.

    I really like my 9.5 inch Ruger 32 Mag handgun and was easily able to do head shots (all 6 rounds) at 50 foot. The guy I went with was commenting that he would not want to use the Ruger in a gun battle as it’s single action and slow to reload. My response is that you don’t need 14 shots if you hit the person the first time. And the shotgun would (or lever 357 Mag) be the first choice for midnight noises around the home.

    One good thing is that out of the 100 or so people at the range there were a lot more woman shooting. I would guess there were 20 woman there with their man. And they all were enjoying shooting. And shooting no better then their men folk.

    There were guys with AR, AK and 10-22s and these people were shooting much better with the rifles, but handgun shooters really suck.

    But I’m a member of an outdoor range and most of the guys at the outdoor range are hunters and can shoot very well. but the public indoor range really shows you how people can’t really use a gun right.

    I noticed is how much people at the indoor range would point the barrel of the guns at other people without thinking about it. At the outdoor range I’m a member of you get 2 warnings about this, the third time you get kicked out and have your membership taken away.

    Another thing I noticed that everyone shooting were white, no other races were shooting. I asked my friend about this (he’s a member at this range) and he says it’s always like this.

    • I hear what your saying , but fact is , handguns are not as easy to shoot accurately for a beginner , they just are not as stable a platform as a rifle is , I noticed that pistol grip rifles are also not shot as accurately as traditional rifles by beginners . I have been shooting all my life , and have a friend that had been in the military …….what does the military use ? pistol grip rifles . He kept trying to tell me to tuck my arm under to stabilize the rifle instead of the cowboy way I use , he didnt understand that traditional rifle doesn’t need that , as the whole arm and wrist are one unit and one continuous contact point , as opposed to the palm of your hard and shoulder being two separate contact points . I’m a birder as far as hunting goes , that means that I shoot the cowboy way , which is your always moving , your arms are relaxed , and you shoot in a relaxed natural way , I’m very accurate with that , you cant be a flack cannon , hunting a moving target like birds or shoot from horseback and be ridged . He didnt get that . I’m not into long range shooting , it’s too static , I dont have the patience for it , its just not enjoyable shooting for me . Just sayin . I have to give people credit for the fact that they ARE at the range practicing , yes they may suck , but they know they suck , thats why they are there , everybody starts somewhere , and seeing your improvement is part of the thrill of shooting . I fear for all the folks that dont go to the range and get surprised by the sound , and recoil , the first time they pull the trigger , which will most likely be when they need the gun to save their life ……..that scares me , but you and I both know there are a lot of people out there that are going to do just that .

  35. I wasn’t going to add anything after reading all the above comments, but dang it, I just can’t keep my mouth shut! Your Springfield and Moisin are excellent rifles for longer ranges, agreed. I’m not a Glock fan, but if you like it, that works fine for the short ranges. Your shotgun does well for short to medium (100 yards with the right loads). My input is get an AK/SKS/Saiga/Ruger Mini-30 or two for everything in between. The 7.62×39 round is very effective at intermediate ranges, 100-400 yards. Beyond that, I couldn’t see a target without optics, so I wouldn’t take a shot with those types of rifles. Adding a recoil buffer (it’s a little rubber peice that goes inside the receiver) and/or a recoil pad would take all the “bite” out of any perceived recoil. Both are available on Amazon. I am NOT an AR fan, although I have to give the nod to the AR’s better accuracy beyond 200 yards. I’ve carried M4s overseas several times, and my biggest fear was that something would happen at a critical moment and the weapon would fail (it only did once, but that was enough for me). I am even less a fan of 5.56. If you do decide on an AR, try to find one in a different caliber (I think someone suggested 6.8 SPC, but they’re also available in many others, including 7.62×39). As for the Keltec Sub 2000, in combination with your Glock it’s an excellent carbine. It’s fairly easy to keep a good grouping at 75 yards, and hit consistently a man sized silouette at 100. Sights are OK, and it’s not really hard to shoot (cleaning is a different matter). I sold mine recently to a buddy who wanted it to go with his Glock. Lots of advantages already covered, but the downside is of course that it still only shoots the 9mm round, with all of it’s pros and cons. If you can live with that, then by all means go for it.

    To digress a bit (OK, a lot), a few people mentioned that body armor could be worn by a potential threat. Let me address this for a bit, as someone who’s shot a body armor wearing bad guys, worn body armor myself, and been shot while wearing armor. Soft body armor, the most “common” type, will probably stop most if not all pistol rounds and most shotgun rounds, depending on it’s rating. It will NOT stop rifle rounds. The wearer will still have to deal with a significant amount of energy transfering to their body, but not the penetration of the bullet. This may knock them down, make them stumble, or some other effect. It may, if you hit them just right, still kill/disable them, but I wouldn’t bet on it. They may still be capable of being a threat, depending on how determined they are to do you harm after being hit (most folks would call it a day, but some are just to stubborn to get the hint). Soft body armor WILL NOT STOP RIFLE ROUNDS. If you think a threat would be wearing soft armor, the Sub 2000 would not be a good choice based on that alone. Level IV armor (adding hard plates) will most probably stop rifle rounds, with a few exceptions. Even so, getting hit while wearing it is still no fun (although better than getting hit while NOT wearing it!) This is what I was wearing, and I was hit twice by a Moisin (7.62x54R), both times in the chest plate. The first knocked me down, the second hit while I was scrambling for cover, rolling me over. Before there was a third, my team found and handled the shooter. I ended up with bruises, and was able to continue the mission (in a very foul mood). This type of armor is what the “good guys” should be wearing, but anyone can order it online. The Keltec would have had a lot less effect, and to be honest, the AR wouldn’t have had much more going for it. So, if people wearing body armor is a real threat for where you’re at, you will either need a much bigger gun, or possible consider moving. Better yet, forget about getting another gun and get yourselves body armor as well. Check out Gunbroker.com for ideas if that’s what you decide.

  36. With all due respect to previous posters, I can only speak to my own experience.

    I have a Glock17 and really like it. Reliable.
    I have the Sub2000 and think it is nifty, although I don’t like the operation of it. It feels stiff for my older fingers. I think I need more time at the range focusing just on using it.
    And I love love my AR for accuracy at distances over 200 yards. It is easy to operate with very very little kick. I am extremely accurate with it and became comfortable with it almost right away.

    I think having the three of them make sense, as it is good to have a longer folding gun that shoots the same ammo as the glock. But if I had to choose between the sub 2000 and my AR, the AR would be my top choice.

  37. Chuck Findlay says:

    It';s nice to have lots of guns and ammo to play with, but really it’s just important to have a gun and ammo to use if needed.

    We all argue as to what is best and what is not so good. But honestly no one wants to get shot by even a 22 long rifle. The fact that you have a few guns (any gun) and are willing to use it will likely give bad guys reasons to move on.

    Post shtf a hospital or medical care may be hard to come by or out of reach to pay for and i suspect people will not want to risk it.

    A Ruger 10-22 with a few 30-round mags is not that expensive and will make an effective low cost home protection gun. No one is going to shrug off 10 to 15 22 bullets being shot into them..

    So buy all the guns you want to have (this has been my MO for 30+ years) but once you have a few guns don’t think you must have more to survive. Many people during the depression did well with single shot 22s and shotguns.

  38. Another factor to what you buy is the simple question of ” what are you preparing for ? , what do you think is going to happen and your role in that ”
    once you can honestly answer that question , it will give you a direction .
    I look at two possibilities , the most immediate in my mind , would be civil unrest , the economy fails and your simply protecting your home . This to me would be a short term SHTF , as the powers that be will eventually regain control of the situation , their means are up for speculation , but I do absolutely believe that the government fully intends to stay in power . That said , the other possibility , and the more serious one , is civil war . That is a long term SHTF , and one that will require a great deal more thought .

  39. AR’s and AK’s for that matter are relatively plentiful and inexpensive; although the ammunition is as hard to get as any other right now.
    The SUB2K OTOH is hard to find, at least around here. I’m looking at something similar in 9mm to maintain fewer cartridges, but in the end it comes down to your personal situation. The 9mm will work OK for suppressive fire up to perhaps 100 yards, as will the .22. The AR and AK will work accurately beyond that; however, you already have several stand-off rifles for the long distance.
    What I think you need to do is evaluate your location and terrain and determine the type of defense in which you may be required to engage, and choose accordingly.
    In all cases where you have stand alone firearms (i.e., no duplicates) you should have the requisite spare parts and knowledge to maintain them.

  40. Moran b eeghuzzar says:

    Let us know when you accidentally shoot each other, a neighbor or friend. In the meantime…what about aliens?

  41. Moran b eeghuzzar says:

    Awww! Were you buying each other Valentines day prezzies?

  42. Backwoods Prepper says:

    Well to put in my 2 pennies. I would get rid of the Springfield and get another Glock why? Because everybody has one, commonality of parts. I would save my $ and purchase 2 keltec SU16C’s in .223 caliber. Do not put that big scope on a battle rifle you will not be able to use it effectively at close range. Leave it on th ’06 that’s what it’s for. Now you will have sidearms. Battle rifle, CQB shotty. As far as the 06 and what I assume is a Mosin Nagant these are your reach out and touch them weapons pull them out take them to a range and get some instruction on using them better. In other words find out why you are not comfortable with them.

  43. For the very serious prepper and for those of us who can afford a full auto weapon, do so.
    They are legal to own in most states, require a rigorous background check, about a years wait to have the paperwork approved by the ATF, and $15-$25K. Civilians can legally own automatic weapons that have been registered with the ATF prior to May, 1986. Dealers with special licenses, law enforcement personal, and the military can have automatic weapons after that date.
    It was mentioned above that a good plan for survival will need at least 16 people who will share militarily and civilian responsibilities.
    Ideally one of those 16 should have access to a full auto weapon. There are not many things more unnerving than having someone fire at you with an automatic weapon. Just the sound alone is enough to send the bad guy scurrying away. My choice is an AR15 converted to full auto prior to the 1986 deadline. They are less expensive then a military M-16, and, you can still purchase (for the time being) all the full auto parts EXCEPT the receiver, without government approval at a price not much more then semi auto AR-15 parts.
    The down side, aside from the fact you will need to triple your ammo supply, is the government will know exactly where these weapons are and may be knocking at your door to retrieve them if THEIR need arises.

  44. patrulje says:

    Because you obviously are not getting a lot of response on this post I will add my 2 cents.
    The KISS principal applies to logistics as well, standardization of weapons, calibers and ammo will pay dividends in the long run.
    I would suggest getting a “battle” rifles, something for engagements out to 300m, this can be an AR, SKS/AK or M1/FAL etc. Get at least 2 and stock up on common spare parts, magazines and ammo. Which one is based upon your individual situation (physical ability/price range/engagement area). ARs and FALs are great for build it yourself projects, which can reduce the price and make you skilled at repairing you chosen weapon.
    Consider trading the Springfield for another Glock or the other way around. There may occur a situation where the ability to pass magazines between people is critical. After an engagement the US Army teaches LACE (Liquid, Ammo, Casualties, Equipment). This is where, among other things, you cross load between individuals because different soldiers may have expended different amounts. If you all use the same weapon and magazine it is much easier. This applies to the sniper rifles as well, I would recommend deciding which better suits your needs and get another of the same rifle.
    Pistol caliber carbines are great for close in work, choose one that uses a round that you already stock. 9mm or .357 etc.
    I have and enjoy a Keltec SUB2000, it is easy to shoot accurately out 100 yards and has magazines compatible with my Glock 9mm. Another big advantage of the SUB2000 is the ability to fold it to conceal it under a coat or in a bag. It can be readied for fire much quicker than an AR or other takedown rifle. The KELTEC owners group has a thread where to find SUB2000s with prices.
    Also remember that two is one and one is none. I once saw an negligent discharge go thru a weapons rack right before a patrol. We were able to take the upper from one M4 and the lower from another to assemble a single functional one.
    All that being said, weapons without training are just expensive toys. Get as much range time as possible now, because on the job training after SHTF is not very forgiving.
    j.
    CSM (ret)

  45. A lot of comment’s have put down the AR15 for close up work but they are used everyday in CQB situations. A good AR15 carbine with a collapsable stock would be Good for close up are For that reach out and touch someone shot. I can tell you from experience that I can hit a Target at 600 yard with open sight with my AR15. Keep the 9mm round for your Pistols and get something that would be good for a Dual purpose role like the AR15 in 5.56 / 223. Also yes the 30-06 round is a great round but is a Heavy hitter on you Shoulder. I don’t know How the GI’s In WW II did it in a Combat Roll. Know the 308 is a More forgiving round as far as prolonged shooting go’s in my opinion & I Shoot a lot. Hope this Helps Some.

  46. Sideliner 1950 says:

    Re: “I can tell you from experience that I can hit a Target at 600 yard with open sight with my AR15.”

    At least according to what I see, either everybody went on vacation all at once or your comment (quoted above) put an end to the discussion. I’d like to know what that target was, and whether or not it survived.