Urban Prepper Basics for Catastrophe Survival in the City and Urban Areas

Even if you are fortunate enough to have a retreat out in the country getting to your safe-haven maybe impossible during an urban upheaval. Roads blocked by wrecked and fuel-less vehicles will stop most people who are bugging out in their tracks. Maybe you were born lucky and can make it out safely before the balloon bursts, then what?

People in rural areas will start shooting if threatened by mobs of refugees fleeing the city. Don’t expect to be welcomed with arms outstretched. Most country folks don’t trust outsiders; you will likely be greeted with a load of buckshot and not the cup of fresh coffee and meaningful conversation you had hoped for.

After the cities are in ruins, criminal gangs will start to migrate into surrounding rural areas (especially known farming areas) where they will continue their business of stealing, raping and terrorizing in more fruitful territory (when selecting a rural retreat location get as far away from urban areas and main roads as possible).

If you can’t or won’t get out of your urban location NOW at least start making plans to survive the best that you can where you are. It won’t be easy, but it can be done.

Food for urban preppersprepper food storage for city survival

You should store enough food to last at least six months – more than one year would be ideal, but probably impossible for most urbanites because of limited storage space. This means enough food to live on without leaving home. Food staples include rice, beans, honey, wheat, sugar, tea, coffee, salt, pepper, baking soda, cooking oil etc. Also canned soups, meats, fruits and vegetables should be included for verity. The food storage calculator is an excellent tool for approximating needed qualities of foods and is a great help here.

Also see my recent article – “How To Get a Family of Four Prepped for The Coming Collapse – In The Quickest and Easiest Way Possible” for a full list of supplies and gear.

Sprouting seeds for fresh greens is a very important urban survival skill that will keep you supplied with fresh greens even in the winter. Sprouts are germinated seeds of vegetables, nuts, grains and legumes. Sprouts are nutritious, inexpensive and high in protein. Sprouts should be included in your survival food plans. All that is needed is a couple of quart mason jars, a squire of nylon window screen, rubber bands and viable seed stock.

If you decide to include whole grains in your diet, you will need a grain mill. All chosen grain mills should have changeable heads so you can use both steel and stone heads for grinding depending on the product being milled. Some people suggest that steel burred grinders cause heat that could damage the nutrient content of the grain. Don’t buy into that. Hand grinding doesn’t cause enough heat to cause damage.

Next you will need something to cook on. I recommend one of the Coleman multi fuel camp stoves. I have a Coleman Exponent Multi-Fuel Stove which burns both unleaded gasoline or kerosene. These stoves are small, light weight and very energy-efficient.

Remember, when using stoves like the Coleman camp stoves indoors the fumes must be vented to the outside, if not carbon monoxide can build up and kill you, especially in a small or confined area. In most cases an open window near the cooking area will suffice for ventilation – read and follow the instructions in the provided owners manual.

My top recommendation for outdoor cooking (cooking outdoors my attract unwanted attention) is the EcoZoom rocket stove – click on the link to read my full review.

If you don’t have one already go by your local shopping center and pick up a Stanley Aladdin narrow-mouth thermos bottle. You will use the thermos as an energy-efficient appliance for cooking. Don’t get a wide-mouthed thermos; if you intend to use it for cooking, these are less efficient at holding heat.

It is best to use a different bottle for cooking then your everyday thermos. Coffee smell for instance, tends to leach into whatever you are cooking, even if the bottle has been cleaned.

Thermos cooking is in no way difficult or complicated, all you need is some simple directions.

Water for urban preppers

Without a source of clean drinking water most of us will die within three to seven days, depending on individual health, weather conditions and workload. The problem with water is it’s difficult to store enough to last through an extended emergency and living in an urban apartment makes it nearly impossible.

Collecting rain water on the roofs of buildings could be a solution in areas that receive an ample amount rainfall. Use plastic sheeting, tarps etc, to funnel water into clean trash cans, buckets, “kiddie pools” or other suitable containers.

When I lived in an apartment building years ago, I bought several “kiddie pools” just for this purpose. They can be stored neatly stacked one inside the other and slid under the bed out-of-the-way until needed.

Some urban areas have lakes or streams near by but these will be polluted and contaminated – a running water source is better but still no guarantee of cleanliness. Never drink directly from the source; there is no way of knowing if the water is contaminated (it mostly will be) without proper testing. Don’t take chances; invest in a good water filter to be sure. The best filters filter out Bacteria, Organic Chemicals and Protozoa (Giardia) Viruses.

Shelter for urban preppers

I hated living in an apartment. I felt like I had no privacy what-so-ever, I could hear every word, whimper, moan or scream through the walls, ceiling and floor. I am sure everyone in the building felt the same way. If you are stuck in a large city an apartment is likely the situation you will need to deal with despite its limitations.

There are a few things you can do to make your place more secure. The first thing I did was replace the front door with a steel security door with dead bolt and peephole (same color and look of the old door). I hid the old door in the closet and replaced it when I moved. I also replaced the door leading into the bedroom with the same type door, lock and peephole set up for an instant safe-room (safer) inside the apartment.

Don’t forget smoke and carbon monoxide. Keep at least two fully charged fire extinguishers on hand at all times. Also the magnetic break door and window alarms work well when used to guard the windows and doors leading into the apartment.

If you are above the second floor an escape ladder or rope should be put back in case of fire. A proper mask should also be considered.

When we pay rent we are always faced with the possibility of eviction. If possible keep the rent paid up at least six months. If you have no other way of paying in advance, borrowing the money from the bank will keep you sheltered during hard times. I hate debt but this is on area where it could be to your advantage depending on your personal circumstances and how you work the situation.

Going mobile could be an option for the city survivor, but fuel will likely become a problem post collapse. Like everything else in life we must weigh the good against the bad and make our choices based on that knowledge. If you’re interested in this, some great information can be found here.

Weapons for urban preppers

Defense in the city will likely be a short-range engagement. For urban areas, I recommend a good pump-action 12 gauge shotgun and a handgun. The Mossberg 500/590 or Remington 870 are both excellent choices. For versatility put back a verity of shot-shell loads as well as buckshot and rifled slugs.

Handguns should be at least .38 caliber or above. I like both revolvers and semi-automatic handguns, in skilled hands both can be effective. Stay with what you know and practice. If you have had little or no training in this area seek out a competent instructor and become qualified. If you are fortunate enough to live in a state that issues concealed carry permits, you should apply for yours as soon as possible.

My favorite foraging tool in urban areas is the Savage Model 42.

Wild Game for urban preppers

In urban area you’ll mostly have a choice of small game such as rabbit and squirrel but what most people fail to realize is that the outskirts of most urban areas harbor a good number of whitetail deer. The trouble is that everyone will be hunting, so the numbers of wild game my be depleted quickly and let’s not overlook the danger of going out to hunt in those area…

Small game can be taken with traps, air rifles, slingshots or ever killed with a club or rock. When I lived on a lot in a small city, I shoot squirrels that found their way into my back lot with a .22 caliber rifle loaded with CB caps, (down-loaded .22 rimfire ammo) the little rounds are very quiet and can take most small animals out to about ten yards.

Deer can easily be snared or shot.

Most cities have an abundant pigeon population. It is a simple matter to follow the flock to their roost at dusk. Shinning a light into their eyes they tend to set still where they can be caught or killed with little trouble. Air guns and sling shots work well.

Without a doubt the most abundant source of meat in any urban environment is the common rat. They have thrived under even the most challenging circumstances. It is almost a certainty if there are human survivors after any catastrophe rats will be in abundance but likely infested with parasites and other things that could make you sick, and therefore should be used only as a last resort to avoid death from starvation. Like most small animals they can be trapped in homemade box traps or shot.

Gardening for urban preppers

Don’t expect to support yourself entirely from a city garden, at least not at first. I have raised tomatoes in a window box and hanging baskets on the terrace. Perhaps in time large community gardens would spring up that could be worked by groups of urban survivors.

During the first months preceding a total collapse, gardens will need to be hidden and out of sight. A lot of vegetables (especially among most city dwellers who think vegetables come from the supermarket) are easily mistaken for weeds and are not all that difficult to keep hidden from passers-by.

The first rule of avoiding detection is to never plant your crops using the traditional roll method. The three sisters gardening method comes to mind, some North American Indian tribes used this technique to grow corn, beans and squash to great effect and it acts as a natural camouflage.

When it comes to survival gardening, obviously we must start with seed – it is a necessity to have a source of viable seed on hand. Look for non-hybrid (“heirloom”) varieties, you want to be sure the seed saved from year to year will breed true and continue to do so. Hybrid varieties for the most part are unpredictable and seem to only do well during the first year of planting.

Most garden varieties should be included in your stock. Include such vegetables as: artichoke, asparagus, beans, beets, broccoli, cabbage, carrots, cauliflower, celery, chives, corn, cucumber, eggplant, garlic, gourds, kale, leeks, lettuce, mustard green, onions, parsley, parsnips, peanuts, peas, peppers, pumpkin, radishes, soybeans, spinach, squash, sunflowers, Swiss chard, tomatoes, turnip, watermelon, zucchini etc; In general put back seeds that grow well in your area and of foods you like to eat.

Conclusion

Even in the most populated areas after the rioting, burning and looting subsides there will be survivors. The most difficult part is surviving the first few months after the crash, and then the rebuilding can begin.

Please share your thoughts and urban survival tips for city preppers in the comments section below…

About M.D. Creekmore

M.D. Creekmore is the owner and editor of TheSurvivalistBlog.net. He is the author of four prepper related books and is regarded as one of the nations top survival and emergency preparedness experts. Read more about him here.

Comments

  1. mom of three says:

    Make room and can water, if you don’t have room for large 1 gallon of water. You can save the box it came in can 12 quarts, and put the box under your bed, you can store quite a bit that way.

  2. another excellent article. Thanks MD.

    • Red C,

      You’re welcome and thank you.

      • MD, where I live cooking odors will be a problem. How is the rocket stove in limiting cooking odors? What about rocket stoves made with brick?

        Anyone have experience with cob ovens; smoke and odors?

        • Jesse Mathewson says:

          Odors will always be a problem, mask them, start a compost pile, if and when shtf add human waste. It will be midly unpleasant for you, but will mask odors

  3. I own my own home in the suburbs. I’d love to live on more land in a more rural area…but at the moment that’s just not feasible for me.

    With that said, I am actively building up a solid supply of long term food stores which I’ve dehydrated/mylar bagged/bucketed myself as well as a pretty decent amount of stored potable water as well as filtration.

    In other words my situation isn’t ideal but I’m making it work and feel pretty damn confident in what I’ve built up over time. I have a pretty damn small house as well so if I can it, anyone can.

    • Matt,
      Good attitude. It’s been my experience that the only one who can’t, is the one who won’t try. Where there’s a real will to survive, there’s a way.

  4. Jesse Mathewson says:

    We are fortunate, living next door to three others with similar mindsets, easily allowing defensive parameters- cameras will be functional on all houses soon. All houses have between 1000- 5500 potable water stored, rain water/plant watering water- 2500-15000 per house. All of us have gardens, corrugated steel fencing (8 feet) with extensive experience and knowledge and training in multiple areas.

    While all of us detest urban living, jobs/education/medical currently this is what it is. However, we have multiple BOLs, from 20 minutes through 3 hrs driving – with decent road availability…we also have multiple exfils and comms setup ham/etc.,

    Could easily setup a Warsaw block approach/eg., blocking and defending…however, are also capable of exfilling when needed. As well as having multiple other assets that can offer support during exfil if needed.

    Plans within plans within plans – it pays in dividends…just saying. One never knows.

    • Jesse,
      German military strategist Helmuth von Moltke is quoted as saying:
      “No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.”, and since the real world often gets in the way of the best laid plans of mice and men, LOL.
      It’s always best to have multiple plans and be flexible, because when the manure hits the rotating impellor, it quite often flies off in directions on which you hadn’t planned.
      Reality is basically indifferent to our wishes and plans.

  5. patientmomma says:

    When I was an urban apt. dweller, I had food stuffed everywhere; rice and beans inside sofa cushions, pasta inside the sleeper sofa, small cans inside the box springs, etc. Water was the hardest thing to store; I put gal jugs behind the sofa, in the bottom of every closet, in the bathrooms and down in the common storage area. Each apartment had a 6’x6’ cage they could store stuff in the building basement; but you had to hide stuff so it didn’t attract attention. Every so often I put used cat litter in the back behind a beat up old storage container; and the smell kept the teenagers away. Thinking back, I was probably a 4 month supply of food and a month’s supply of water. Just do what you can…

  6. PrepperDoc says:

    It perplexes me how people would survive in a city area if we had a full breakdown. I basically think it is nearly impossible.

    Lets suppose no food or water of any kind is entering the city. In apartment areas, there may be 500 people living in apartments with a grand total of 2 acres of green grass in the entire place.

    You simply can’t feed 500 people from 2 acres.

    That means that after 2 weeks, you and your wife might be doing fine, but there are 498 others who are starving and desperate — someone among them is likely to begin killing in order to get food. And who would be their target…….???

    Lets suppose you survive that initial onslaught. Now we’re 30-45 days out — 5 people are left alive. The other 495 are rotting. And the roving bands? How are the five of you going to defend yourselves?

    ——-so basically I think survival in a full loss of everything is impossible there———

    In word disaster after disaster, however, people in cities have to some extent survived. So in some manner, food gets in, at least some, and people survive. Everyone gets skinny. The weak get plundered. Society reorganizes, jobs change, some jobs disappear, some new jobs appear. Payment may switch to the expected bullets, gold, silver, food, etc. Stuff that COUNTS. Neighborhoods may organize for security. How you make out in that situation probably depends on your ability to get along, work with others, look tough enough that no one “tries” you….and how well you can defend the others who are important to you, if you have to travel any distance for your way of making a living in those times…..

    • PrepperDoc,

      The population would drop substantially over the first few months from death and many more would leave the area for the surrounding near by rural areas. The key is in surviving those first few months, after that it becomes possible. Not easy but possible… look at history, lots of people have survived war and mass disaster in urban areas so it has been done and can be done.

      • Jesse Mathewson says:

        I agree with MD, history doesnt repeat itself, it does however mirror itself quite often, cities are almost always the beginning of societal break downs/government collapses are felt first in them … however, even a moderately well prepared individual can do quite well. Honestly it comes down to a very simple concept, if you want to survive are you willing to do what others may not…this just means, can those in cities form in groups and meld gangs etc., there is a reason I work hard to build connections both “legal” and in other areas. Take it how you will, I will survive.

        And my family as well, period.

      • Ben Leucking says:

        You harken back to times when city dwellers were not totally dependent on technology and had direct knowledge of basic survival skills. Such is not the case today in cities and most urban/suburban regions. That’s where the big die-off will occur. I will agree with one important point that you made: Rural areas will greet the Golden Horde with buckshot.

      • Chuck Findlay says:

        I agree that in a full blown Mad Max situation a city would be a bad place to be, but then so will the country, but probably not as bad as a city?

        But in an ecnomic shtf the city may very well be the place to be.

        During the 1930’s depression people moved to cities, not away from them.

        A fact of life is that we all need money (SHTF is not going to change that) and in the country there is not a lot of opportunity to make money as there is not many jobs. So in the 30’s people moved to the cities just because there was some jobs and therefore some chance to make money.

        Anything less then total collapse city living may be survivable.

        Back in the 1970’s Tappan may have had it right when he talked about living in a small town. Not too big as to have the problems of a large city, small enough to avoid city problems, but just enough people to offer mutual aid when needed. Getting the balance of people just right is the key.

        In his book (a must read book) FerFal talks about remote farms being very dangerous places as the bad guys had no fear of being discovered doing bad things on remote homesteads. They would stay around for days doing bad things. Rape, beating people to death and it was because there was no one to hear you scream and no one to come help you.

    • Prepared Grammy says:

      I think about all of the dead and rotting bodies that will be in cities. I would imagine that diseases will be awful.

      • Jesse Mathewson says:

        I would definitely suggest stocking old tires if you live in cities, earth filled they are better than sandbags, and for funeral pires. ..they burn quite hot. Also stock desposable clean suits for the body clean up.

        • A burning tire would sure attract a lot of attention. Just something to think about it makes a rather large long burning smoke signal.

          • Jesse Mathewson says:

            Very thick dark smoke, yes I am aware. I look at locking a nrighborhood down and blocking off areas.

            • Chuck Findlay says:

              Stocking up on old tires is going to get a visit from a government do-gooder on a mission to interfere with your life. It will be hard to do for most people.

              Jesse there is a U-Tube video (about 1.5 hours long) called “Garbage Warrior” about a guy trying to build Earth Ships in Arizona and the trouble he had with city hall. I watched a few years ago, you may like it.

    • PrepperDoc,
      You make all excellent points. I haven’t lived in an apartment in 41 years, and haven’t lived urban for 35 years, and have never looked back. Sometimes the long drives when I was working were a hassle and with well and septic you can’t call the city or the landlord when things break; but, all in all we wouldn’t trade it for anything. I guess I was ahead of my time and didn’t know it.
      I’ve been to big cities like New York and Chicago for work or vacations, and I quite honestly couldn’t wait to leave and get back to my boonies.

  7. bout2vomit says:

    In the city water is the main concern. Someone in that situation should utilize google maps aerial view to scope out water sources in the vicinity of where they live, and they should be doing that now. Check for neighborhood swimming pools, canals, aqueducts etc. A Big Berkey or other water purification system should be one of the first purchases a city dweller makes. Food is another issue. Save what you can, and invest in a good edible urban plant book or dictionary, preferably with pictures and last but not least if starving, in the city there will be tons of feral dogs roaming. (Last resort). The rest is basic common sense.

    • Chuck Findlay says:

      I think the water issue is a regional thing. I live in the Toledo Ohio area, you can’t drive 1/2 mile in most directions without finding water. I have a small creek a few hundreds of yards from me that has not run dry in my lifetime.

      Most times of the year too much water is an issue, not a shortage of water. Most all of Ohio and Michigan water is everyplace.

      As long as you have a good filter you will do fine.

  8. I agree with most of your assessments except choice of weapons and paying 6 months in advance. In a world WROL, they would not dare to try to evict someone in that situation.
    A shotgun in an urban area where you may face gangs or multiple attackers may not have range or amount of ammo needed to fight them off. IMHO an AR or AK would be the best choice even though I wouldn’t want to argue with Mr 12ga. The 10/22 would be ideal for small game and even a defensive weapon if needed.
    Love the kiddie pool idea !!!

    • Jesse Mathewson says:

      Absolutely correct, multiple individuals with preferably half or more suppressed and or nv’d up ARs or AKs would be quite good…some unsupressed leave them questioning your numbers, never reveal your strength. Always appear larger than you are.

      • JM, for numbers/diversions use firecrackers with fuses in a hole in a cigarette. Gives a delay and/or a distraction to escape or attack.

        • Jesse Mathewson says:

          Nice trick, thank you!

          • Chuck Findlay says:

            JM, for numbers/diversions use firecrackers with fuses in a hole in a cigarette. Gives a delay and/or a distraction to escape or attack.

            Used in the William Holden movie “Stalag 17” One of the best WWII movies ever, and I think Holden’s best work.

      • Chuck Findlay says:

        Does my Gamo air rifle count as a suppressed gun???

        • Chuck:

          To you mean legally or practically?

          Legally, no. Practically, my .22 cal runs at under 1,000 fps and the most noise is from the action. Tips squirrels, and other small ex-pets overt quite well.

    • MD, the Savage 42 is a great survival gun for the woods and even urban, but only after the gangs are gone. I have a 24V 30/30-20ga that I love. It is also an easy breakdown and can be put in a large backpack for hiking. With caliber inserts is a great survival firearm. I have sewn a rifle shell holder on the padded sling that holds 10 rnds and have the shotgun shell holder on the stock with 5 rnds of various types.

      • Chuck Findlay says:

        I have an old Savage 24 (22 LR over a 20 ga) so old it has no ser number on it. from the 1950’s to early 1960’s?

        It’s a nice gun, but kinda heavy, packing it in a backpack would really weigh it down.

        Not a combat gun, but a good survival gun for hunting.

        • Chuck, definitely heavy, but would want to have it for survival in the woods and with the short lane inserts. Hmmm definitely an apocalyptic gun.

    • Chuck Findlay says:

      In any situation short of WROL government is still going to be there to collect taxes. And you will still owe on all the credit you have ran up.

      Paying apartment rent ahead may work, but I could see a few situations where it would not be a good idea.

      People today have no idea how dangerous fire is, it will get away from them and burn their homes down. Bad enough when it’s a single family home, but an apartment building fire could kill lots of people or at least have you running for your life with just the clothes you have on. Even when it’s dangerous apartment dwellers will use fire for light, heat and to cook. Buildings are going to burn because these people are not going to go outside to cook. Paying ahead could be pointless if the building burns down, all your pre-payment money will be gone.

      My opinion is it would be better to buy a used motorhome (A motorhome = a single family dwelling you could move from one area to another safer area with ease) and pay to park it someplace as a backup rather then paying ahead on an apartment.

      I’ve seen running motorhomes for $2K on Craig’s List so it’s not like it’s a big expense that’s out of reach for most of us.

      As far as a normal home that you still owe money on. Both government and companies (the banks)are going to want to be paid and will throw you out of your home to monetize it by selling it. Paying ahead for taxes is not a bad idea, but paying ahead on a loan won’t work as you can make 6 payments today and in 31-days you will be expected to make the next months payment, and on & on it goes for 30-years.

  9. You know who I worry about if the sh*t goes down? All of our barely confined 3rd level sexual predators on McNeil island released into the general once everybody abandons their jobs. To the north we have a prison.
    I am very excited about learning about the Three Sisters plantings and it sounds so easy. We are in an urban setting and have scattered family within blocks. Two miles away the townies have a spring that was grandfathered to the city as long as the spring exists. A lot of people are unaware that they drive by it everyday. We have creeks all over the place. I think it was your column that talked about raising fish- gold fish- for protein. I have scoped out a whole underground operation some asians have next to their wearhouse. It looks easy to replicate that.
    I think I am having prepper fatigue. I’m just about down to expiration dates ( years to go but you know) and have thought maybe we can get by donating those big cans to North Dakota for the cause. IDK.

    • I wouldn’t worry to much about those sexual predators if I were you. In a WROL situation a lot of criminals are going to find out just how much the laws actually protect THEM from the honest hardworking people out there. It is laws that stop most people from dealing with these types not fear of them. I know personally if i knew you were breaking into houses in my neighborhood right now I would let the law handle it. In a WROL situation I would deal with it myself and trust me I wouldn’t give a damn about their RIGHTS. As far as the sexual predators go they have to be protected in jail from the regular inmates to be able to stay alive so most of them would not last long on the outside. JMHO

    • About the expiration dates – I have a system that keeps us with non-expired food and also allows us to donate to the local food cupboard (which we would do anyway) – I have canned goods and rice etc stored by expiration date; a few months before they expire I donate them (drop them off at a food donation bin at church when no one else is around) and then replace them. That way we can “love your neighbor as yourself.”

    • Buy more ammo !!!

  10. Big tree in MN. says:

    MD. Big puppies, paw prints. Much better than what you had. (cops at the attack, twin towers/911,wall street flashboard and all that red) Thanks for the new header. P.S. Long time reader, first time to comment.

  11. Just a couple of observations on the article. As for stockpiling a years supply of food in a small area i have enough for 4 people at 2000 calories a day for 1 years in beans,rice,wheat, pasta,oatmeal and spices along with #10 cans of veggies and meat for flavor in one closet so it can be done. Not saying everyone should do this just saying it can be done in a smaller space.
    On bugging out to the rural areas. What MD said is exactly right you are not going to be welcomed with open arms . I live in a small mountain community and to be honest we don’t want you here now let alone in a SHTF situation. The locals were you go may seem friendly but that’s because most small areas want the tourist money from buying gas,going to restaurants ect not because they like you. Even you folks that have weekend places are not locals and will not be welcome, trust me I know. The food,water,wildlife in these areas will be considered ours just the same as the food you have in your storage and you wouldn’t let a bunch of strangers forage in your garden because they came into your area. JMHO but if your plan is to bug out to the mountains,desert or forest you might want to think again on it.

    • Jesse Mathewson says:

      I tend to agree with Poorman, with the exception being that if you come from those small towns, areas and or have kept your roots deep by continuing to connect, assist and show your worth. I have talked about having tribe across 32 states/ and more…it has taken well over two decades of hard work, lost blood, gained family to get there. If you are just starting now, I highly recommend that you get out of the typical suburban approach and really get to know those people in and around your BOLs, because and again I agree with poorman, if you dont know them well now…they will forget you entirely when it comes down too it. Trust is not something purchased, shoot, look at the USA and its fsiled foreign policy of buying allies…hasnt worked very well has it…your deed or property title wont mean diddly in TEOTWAWKI or even grid down.

      Build connections, be open with people, you may not like the idea of making friends around you, however, history shows not a single example of “the little town that could all by itself”, even tribal times show melding with other tribes during famine years.

    • bout2vomit says:

      @poorman
      …..The food,water,wildlife in these areas will be considered ours just the same as the food you have in your storage …..

      WOW….it seems kinda arrogant and quite foolish to assume that someone hunting on the land they hold a deed to or the food that they worked for and paid for would be considered “yours.” That sounds thuggish and is really morally no better than the criminal hordes most honest folks rant against. If I own a piece of land “anywhere” its mines and my family’s to do with and hunt as we see fit, weekender or not and about that storage of food you fixin’ to take, well lets just say, “thats a whole heap of taking.” We work too hard to let anyone take anything from us, besides “taking” whats not yours, what you didnt work for is low down, illegal, wrong and likely to get you hurt around these parts. How about “asking” a neighbor for help?

      • Jesse Mathewson says:

        Think hard about what poorman said, he is correct. Besides, a deed will mean only as much as the ability to retain the land itself in a true push scenario.

        • bout2vomit says:

          I have thought about it and the part I find fault with is this:
          Taking something, “food storage” that does not belong to him. He did not work for it, he did not earn it. He has no legal or lawful right to it except in his opinion because it is located in the vicinity of his dwelling its his. The same with the land. If I buy 20 acres, build a house, a storage, a fence, a well and ceptic and can only be there a weekend every two months because I work hard then somehow my property or my right to be there is forfeited. Thats silly on its face and goes against the honest spirit we profess to believe in. Taking what is not yours, no matter what twisted logic you use, is the antithesis of honor, is sinful and there are people, present company included who dont get down like that.
          That action makes the actor no better than the criminals in the inner city who robs and steals from innocents. Rather than robbing a storage, how about shaking a hand, making a friend and working together towards a common goal? (and eating good in the process)

          • Jesse Mathewson says:

            Common goal? Define socialism?

            Voluntary interaction means you should get to know you neighbors and understand YOU are the outsider regardless a piece of paper, especially in grid down – I would definitely suggest not bringing that “i deserve because I ” mentality into a relatively free area/ eg not urban or suburban for certain. – trust me, you may have spent some cash and a few days…but compared to those who have invested their lives… grid down, if they dont know you, as in really know you…be certain you can offer contributions but dont try demanding. ..it doesnt end well these days …there is a reason rural areas have less crime

            • PrepperDoc says:

              What they’re really saying is they don’t believe in property rights.

              That’s extremely valuable information.

              I don’t think I would choose to own property amongst those kinds of people. I don’t want to have to go up against an entire neighborhood of that kind of belief system.

              • Jesse Mathewson says:

                Actually we firmly believe in property rights, however, post major event- unless we know you or you can offer something to add…its simple – my suggestion again is simple. Get to know those around where you live, go so far as too drop a few bucks or trade for services prove yourself as a benefit otherwise you are a stranger in a strange land. Not meant negatively just logic

                • Jesse Mathewson says:

                  There is a reason I have spent the better part of two decades forming a tribe across the states and in several other countries. I do not know when or where, and having outs within easy distance is smart prepping

                  I can fly into India for instance and within half an hour be armed – again simple prepping tips. Trust is built not bought

                  • Chuck Findlay says:

                    No one owns their property, all a deed does is make you the one responsible for paying the government for the right to live there as long as the government lets you.

                    Think I’m wrong?

                    Try this, stop paying the taxes on your property and see how long before the government kicks you off it. If you won’t leave men with guns will come and throw you out. Resist and they will kill you.

                    You don’t own sh*t as far as property…

              • Ben Leucking says:

                Out here we don’t call them “neighborhoods.” If you don’t understand what I just said, you never will.

                • Jesse Mathewson says:

                  Our local family/community is amazing. Even though I am somewhat removed physically due to educational needs by one child and medical for me, job for wife…well…but it still exists and I still contribute and work hard to ensure the ties remain.

                • Well said. And I do understand

              • Let me pose a question to you Doc. From what I gather you live in a rural area and know people around you and you work with each other to get things done. So after the shtf some guy that owns a 1 acre lot down the road from you shows up on HIS PROPERTY that he has never visited with 30 of his friends and family none of who have any skills and none of them have any supplies. You and your neighbors will welcome this group with open arms right? You will say hey go ahead and ruin the water supply because you are to stupid to understand sanitary conditions,go ahead and scare the game away because you can’t hunt or trap.( they will be feeding on your garden and livestock next) it’s ok that you do all these things because hey you own that lot right?

                • You create a red herring.
                  I own 80 acres there and 25 acres there. Your element claims to observe property rights — but your definition of property, quite frankly, is that if I have a cache on my property — you can take it, and you can run me off my own land!

                  Absolutely astonishing. I’m much wiser from having read these responsess.

                  You would have lost a doctor, an engineer, a reloader, a sniper, a gunsmith, mechanic….the list goes on.

                  The people who do things like that are called by various names, but it is the socialists and the maoists who do not believe in property rights. This conversation has been very revealing to me. I’ll know much more whom to watch out for….

                  I’m just utterly astonished, but perhaps I have just been a fool for believing people here were better than that.

                  • Jesse Mathewson says:

                    All we are saying is get to be apart of the local community, it will matter.

                  • but your definition of property, quite frankly, is that if I have a cache on my property — you can take it, and you can run me off my own land!

                    I never said anything about taking any cache you would have on your property. I said that the people in the rural areas will look at the water and wildlife the same as you would look at your supplys.

                    • Ben Leucking says:

                      A fanatic is someone who won’t quite talking and won’t change the subject. That’s also the definition of a bore.

                    • Ben Leucking,
                      I loved your quote; but, you do realize that a fan (as in sports fan) is just short for fanatics don’t you? In the sports case, it seems very appropriate, LOL.

          • bout2vomit
            Rather than robbing a storage, how about shaking a hand, making a friend and working together towards a common goal? (and eating good in the process)

            exactly the point. if YOU do those things you would be part of the community. Let me give an example. many of us up here live on roads through the forest that are not county maintained. these same roads need to be maintained either way,brush needs to be cleared,holes need to be fixed, gully’s need to be repaired, gravel needs to be spread, fire breaks need to be cut. The people that live on these roads band together to either handle these projects or pay for them to be done. We have a group that owns 2 property’s on this road that never come here and when asked to contribute money or labor to help maintain them refuse because they say they don’t need to. So your thinking is that they should have the benefit of access to their property,the protection against fire, storm erosion ect just because they own it and I should supply the labor and money to make sure they do?

            • Ben Leucking says:

              AMEN, brother. I have rancher friends who maintain a 2-track road that goes through BLM land at their own expense, including the cost of replacing 3 foot diameter culverts that get washed out. There is a lot of steep ground and mountain grades, but no other absentee property owners ever help with the cost or labor. What these ranchers have to put up with are city boy weekend “recreationists” who tear up the road with their ATVs and cut through fence lines to increase their enjoyment.

              If SHTF, the first thing these ranchers would do is blow the road to keep these assholes out.

              • Jesse Mathewson says:

                We use well placed angled in 6′ fence stakes- but same idea.

                As for the cache, honestly it depends on overall situation, I detest theft, however is it theft to retrieve gold on “public” land? If there is no address and it is relatively easy to find…someone will eventually take it. If it is not easy to find…

                My caches all have an email/”name” in them –

                Just saying.

      • mom of three says:

        Yikes, we own a lot away from our home, we have the deed to it. How can people, just tell you get out of here we go to our property 3 to 5 days a week during the fall and winter, and in the summer 5 to 7 days. We have several cabins that can only be used for 180 days, for our Canadian friends how will that fly? I guess make sure you are at your property more often. I could not even start to tell a neighbor to get off their property, it sounds like a pretty thug thing to say or do to someone elses property. This is not like the conflicted questions from last Wednesday, on covering someones hiddy hole on goverment land, this is my land…

        • Jesse Mathewson says:

          You are not reading what is being written…become apart of the local community while you are there…DONT BE THE TOURIST

          • Thank you Jesse. they just aren’t understanding the concept.

          • she speaks the truth. People do not need to be there every month in order to have property rights and rights to be left in peace.

            I have learned a LOT from this conversation. I was naive. No longer.

            Good luck, my friends, I will know much better how to approach people who come to me gunshot.

            • I am very upset about the opinions on the land ownership. If I owed land, no matter how often I visited, the land is mine to live on and to hunt on. I can’t believe that the “other neighbors” would somehow not allow me to have access to my own property. That mentality is no better than the roving gang of thugs that steal from others.

              • Terra:

                I understand your feelings, however, I refer you to:

                1) my comments of preconcieved notions, and
                2) suggest you read “Lucifer’s Hammer”.

                Not being mean, but I firmly believe that if you can’t touch it, you may not own it after a SHTF or WROL event. Personally, I plan on it being that way (I hope I’m wrong).

                • Hi J.P.
                  You are one of those that I most admire in reading the daily blogs. Thank you for your response. I do own Lucifer’s Hammer. I think I got it for less than a dollar on my Kindle for PC. Perhaps I need to read this book. Again, thank you for your response. Take care

                  • Terra:

                    Thanks for the compliment. I try not to be confrontational, I just want people to think. It will require a different mind set. I like to think that the people here are open to re-evaluation.

                    • Jesse Mathewson says:

                      While I may be more blunt than others, I also would rather see people live than die. Ive seen death, allot, and honestly, do not endorse the idea of it occurring especially to those around me.

                      This being said, honestly there are some people here who are very resistant to building community.

        • If you are spending that much time on your land then you ARE part of the community

          • Jesse Mathewson says:

            Agreed

          • Maybe or maybe not. Do you know all of your neighbors by name? Do you go into town and buy all your needs and eat at the local eatery? Do you share your lands, allowing locals to hunt and fish or is it all posted no trespassing? Being part of the local community is more that just showing up and occupying the property for a few days a week and not associating with the locals or even treating them as beneath your standards. I have known both types.

      • I have to agree with poorman. I live where I live for a reason. I can not and do not plan on bugging out. We consider the bounty in this area ours and no one will be welcome to come here and harvest it. No one during a SHTF will set back and let others come into their area and kill off the game, etc.. Anyone coming out of the cities for what ever reason (bugging out, scavenging or looting) will be met with resistance.

        • PrepperDoc says:

          Even if they’ve owned property there for decades and pay taxes on it into the local system for all those years?

          I already know your answer. This conversation has been extremely eye-opening to me.

          • Yes to be blunt. If you don’t live here and become part of this community, you are looked at some rich asshole from away. Just because you live in a big city and can afford to come into our area and buy up land that you don’t live on, doesn’t make you a local resident. We detest people who come into the area and buy up large tracks of land or farms. And if you don’t have property here you are going to be looked at as even lower on the totem pole, more than likely as a looter. It’s just like those rich folks buying into the big survival shelters. What make them so sure they are going to be let in when the big one happens. I see a bunch of locally hired security forces locking them out and having a pretty nice setup for themselves and their families. I live just outside of a large national forest and anyone that thinks they are just going to bug out and move into the area will be met with resistance. And I am sure you will find this in most rural areas, where people look on outsiders with skepticism at best.

            • PrepperDoc says:

              I just don’t know what to say.

              But if I DID try to get back to MY PROPERTY, I can see that I would approach it as a sniper.

              These folks here said that you could only keep your property if you could KEEP your property. I have the implements to accomplish that.

              This is incredibly eye-opening

              Wish you folks good luck. You may find that the Scriptures taught what they did, for a reason.

            • PrepperDoc says:

              “We detest people who come into the area and buy up large tracks of land or farms.”

              Class warfare, huh? Is that really where Jesus was? What book of the bible did you find this teaching? Where in the Constitution?

              I’m just stunned.
              A thug is a person who overpowers someone else to take by force what is not theirs…..
              A thief is a person who steals from others what belonged to others.

              I had thought better of this group. I see that I was badly mistaken.

              Lesson learned.

              • Jesse Mathewson says:

                PrepperDoc, you are not looking at this very well. Pick a major disaster, any one of hundreds that could and or likely will affect the lives of urbanites specifically.

                When in history has any animal species simply allowed the wholesale takeover of their “areas” and survived?

                Here in Arizona for instance, we know should something major happen it isnt Mexico we should be worried about, it is California and Colorado these states are already stealing our water, power and slowly but surely moving in too Maricopa county and our state and changing things…

                Its self preservation, rose colored glasses cannot be used for TEOTWAWKI events…if you are not ‘apart’ of the local community, you will be rejected UNLESS YOU CAN OFFER something we do not have or can use that benefits all. Tourists especially will be blocked out.

                • Chuck Findlay says:

                  For once I’m going to be nice (and not give my views on this and agree with Prep Doc). and stay out of this debate..

      • @bout2vomit
        First off I should explain that the whole area around where I live is national forest land and not owned by you or your families unless you want to look at it in the fashion that since it is government land it is owned by all . that said in a true SHTF situation people will “tribe up ” by areas and look to keep strangers out. That is just a fact. You can rant at me all you want but you are saying the same thing I am when you state you will do what you want with your property. If you owned property up here and came to it you wouldn’t let a bunch of strangers come live on it or would you? Prepper Doc you have said that in your area there are families and groups ready to band together for mutual protection and help so again you are saying the same thing as I was you just don’t see it. I guarantee you will try to stop strangers from coming into your area also. look at the book 1 second after,isn’t that exactly what they did when people from the city tried to come into their community? i don’t say I even hold these ideas but they are a fact so I’m sorry if I offended any of your personal beliefs but if and when the balloon goes up a lot of people are going to find that the decisions they think they will make are not the decisions thy will make.

        • poorman et. al.:

          Most of us, from time to time, need to take a good long look at our pre-concieved notions and compare them to reality. I am just as guilty as the next person, but try to work through them.

          If you think that something should be a certain way, check! You may find your thought process or your facts are in error.

          As an example some are relatively harmless – I always thought you could not get less than 1% on your savings – until it happened. Others less so – like not really knowing where your water comes from or where your sewage goes.

          When we try to take modern society rules and customs and put it in a SHTF or WROL situation we have a tendency to let those notions carry over. If we count on them we may end up with a serious problem.

          • I agree JP. I have said numerous time that if and when the SHTF people are going to be forced to make some very hard decisions. The answers they think they will come up with now may be very different when they are faced with them. i tend to take a realistic view of things and understand that that view often conflicts with what I would want it to be.

        • I will not steal another man’s food, unless it is life or death, and then I will replacce it.

          I may not welcome unprepared people with “open arms”….but I will not run them off their own land!!!

          One does not gain by the tragedies of another……but by building people up so that they grow and become assets to a community.

          Some people here clearly believe they are entitled to be Judge Jury and (effectively) Executioner. I’m just delighted that I learned this. I’m a darn good shot — well over half a mile if I have to, and I have comms skills way beyond most. I will be far, far better prepared to deal with people who think that fairness and honesty goes out the window when troubles come along.

          Just wait till you get a good case of diverticulitis….

          • Well good for you Doc but you are not the only one with skills. Some of us mountain boys shoot pretty well also and we already know our area. Sorry if I burst your bubble about everyone getting together after SHTF holding hands and singing kum- by- ya but I don’t like to put on rose colored glass’s . facts are facts if and when this happens it will go down as I stated no matter what your beliefs or opinions are. As of now I am just done with this cionversation

  12. I have actually talked to SEVERAL people who have stated that would not want to be around if TSHTF. I asked them why & several just said it would be too hard but a MAN said because he wouldn’t be able to buy new clothes. I am like WHAT????? You call yourself a MAN?

    • Jesse Mathewson says:

      Humans will die off quickly, this is a good thing for those who are relatively prepared or capable of adapting.

  13. Babycatcher says:

    Thank you for the new header. Sorry it’s been such a pain! Love them Wolfies!

  14. in a apartment building or the like I think keeping a low profile would be a must. Lock the door and don’t plan on opening it for a few weeks. No lights at night, no noise. Let the neighbors think you left. I would recommend a door club on all your doors too.
    Quick Amazon search for door club will show what I’m referring to. Drill a small hole in the floor and drop in a door stop. Very simple works very well. Will make trying to kick the door in extremely time consuming. They are installed on all my doors at home.

  15. Very good article, M.D.
    After already living in major cities, I could see just how the mass of shocked people would be scavenging for anything they could find.
    Today, I can still see the same thing happening in our small southern town between the lakes and mountains, maybe just less of volume of trash parasites to deal with.
    Like Jesse M. in some ways, I’ve been able to get to know a good amount of others that are in level-headed tribes already.
    Some I was invited to come shooting with, and it paid off for more than just trigger time.
    ” Look, even if you don’t want to team up with us now, it’s good for the others to meet and know safe & reliable outsiders as Friends of ours……….” And I took that as a complement.
    One thing I have shared with these few was http://www.thesurvivalistblog.net as a good source of information in their areas of concerns.
    That said, We have already “bugged out” and sold all properties we owned in major cities.
    What I am working on is a form of a net of “safe sites” that I can go to for whatever reason during a time of need and build a Friendship with those surrounding folks.
    Besides that, improving our own Fort: LIVINGROOM is a never-ending saga for us……..there’s always something to do.
    I’ve babbled enough, Thank you for putting up with me.

  16. Canadian Prepper has some pretty logical video’s on you tube about gangs after shtf. I agree with him in that a feudal system would eventually evolve after a long term event WROL. You need to know your neighbors and help them out when you can, build an alliance now.

    • Very revealing.

      I plan to stay right where I am — I’m quite well able to survive, organize my area, and defend against anything short of a tank — and I might just best one of those, also! But it is now clear to me that others here plan to plunder anything of mine on various properties that I own. Very revealing! I’m delighted that I learned that, it will give much much better insight into human nature…..

      Just remember — the people who cannot live by God’s law or by Constitutional law — both of which include property rights — are going to be very, very dangerous people when they get in a bad spot. You will not be safe with them.

      • And after several decades of practicing medicine, EVERYONE gets into a bad spot at one time or another…….

      • Jesse Mathewson says:

        Nobody is saying plunder rape and pillage, just get to know and be apart of the local community

        • PrepperDoc says:

          I didn’t hear rape but I heard a lot of other stuff that was distincttly unpleasant. I had hoped I had misunderstood it, but others interpreted it exactly as I had. It was an eye-opening experience, sir.

        • PrepperDoc says:

          I heard both plunder & pillage. Their definitions are similar (had to look them up). While it is always a good idea to know the people around you, some of the land I own was owned by my GRANDFATHER and is hundreds of miles from me. Impractical for me to visit often at all.

          there is nothing in the Constitution or in the Bible that places a requirement on getting to know your neighbor to be protected from thieves, bullies and thugs. I have good sized set of rifles that will possibly do the job however.

          I am so disappointed with the people who took those distinctly criminal viewpoints, that I just don’t know what to say. Some on this very site have advocated outright execution for anyone who did…..exactly what others on this conversation are openly advocating! What are these two groups of people going to do when they meet up with each other? I guess I know what the result will be, unfortunately.

          Oh well. I get to work with the highest and the lowest in our society as a result of working in a hospital. I volunteer and take care of the homeless at no cost. But the animosity, the class hatred, the thuggery openly espoused on this conversation has been extremely eye opening. Makes me all the more certain that I’m staying right where I am….and I will have a very very jaundiced view of the claims that wounded people brought to me make…..they may well be some of the type here who have no compunction abut the laws of God or the Constiution. I’m not sure exactly what my duty to them would be……that will be a hard one, since I can no longer trust even the people on this site.

          So sad.

          Oh well. Good Luck, folks!

          • Eloquently said Doc. I am very surprised by the responses. I had NO idea this was even an issue. I just assumed that neighbors would respect our right to our own land.

          • bout2vomit says:

            @prepper doc
            Keep your head up and stand in your truth because you are in a good place morally. The beauty and blessing of forums such as this is it allows you a glimpse into the various facets of our own flawed human psyches. We may not agree with the position of others but the position of others can be a tool to groom our own growth and posture us in a manner to repel other situations we neglected to factor into our own mental preps. Stealing, robbing and all manners of thuggery are abhorrent to those of us who have risen beyond such, however to those who haven’t that type of behavior is part and parcel with their own SHTF plan….except it, and align your own SHTF plan with countermeasures. The most important part is for us to rise on all levels and try to change a few minds in the process. Keep up the good work!

          • Jesse Mathewson says:

            So what you are saying is communities should open their doors and share with everyone, even if they are not apart of their communities?

            That is defined as socialism, your resistance to seeing the core, which is people stating the necessity of being apart of the community …that is stunning.

            • You don’t want to be “apart” of the community! That means you want to be away from, parted from the community. What you mean is to be ” a part” of the community: one part of the whole, together. Apart means to be separated, a part means to be one of a group or a whole. Check your spelling, please!

              • Maybe he just failed to hit the space bar, geez!

                • KDK,

                  Maybe he just failed to hit the space bar, geez!

                  Or didn’t take the time to proofread. I’m sometimes rightfully accused of being a grammar, spelling and math Nazi; but, if you had business cards printed up that stated:
                  KDK The rapist
                  When they should have read
                  KDK Therapist
                  I suspect you would send them back for a correction.

                  • The ‘apart’ vs ‘a part’ was driving me crazy when I was reading it too. I was hoping that Ohio Prepper would chime in. Glad he did.

                    • Jesse Mathewson says:

                      I wish I could say it was a simple typo, sadly, I definitely need a proofreading editor 🙂

                    • Terra,

                      I was hoping that Ohio Prepper would chime in

                      Only after KDK & PL C said something.
                      I’m getting a bad rep here and I’m trying to restrain myself.

      • We are not talking about taking something from someone else. But, we won’t have others come in and take from us. Just as an example, during a bad storm in the past people could not get gas in the nearest city and started coming out to our area to buy up gas for their generators. Our local store put up a sign stating they would only sell to locals as they came first. They checked IDs for anyone they did not recognize and turned away non-locals. We support our local businesses and during tough times they support us. If one of us is going through a bad time and walk into the local store, the owner will give us what we need on credit and know that we will be back to make good on it as soon as possible. Keep that in mind when its time to bug out. Small towns may not let you purchase supplies if you come into town. During a major balloon going up, our town has plans for shutting down all roads into town to keep people from moving in. They will be told to stay out on the highway and keep moving, that there are no supplies available. Remember, even where you live, strangers are going to start showing up looking to buy, steal or what ever and you better have a plan to keep them out.

        • PrepperDoc says:

          Your claims are false for some of the statemnets I’ve seen here, unless my interpretation of them is really off. The class warfare that I’ve heard was eye opening.

          If you prevent me from using my own property, doesn’t that make you a thief?

          • Jesse Mathewson says:

            The idea that you are owed anything based on taxes paid or a piece of paper will mean nothing if you are not known by a community. Its not a defect to understand that now, simply means you have to be a better neighbor now. Are you that resistant to being a good neighbor?

          • “If you prevent me from using my own property, doesn’t that make you a thief?”

            Not to be pedantic or anything, but I think it makes one an armed robber or murderer. “What’s mine is mine and what’s yours is mine, too, flatlander.” Optional addition: “BANG!”

            Nonetheless, it would be extremely foolish not to accept that the attitude is out there, in some places widely held, and could have highly fatal consequences for those who do not recognize the hazards it creates.

            I can sympathize with the “locals” if a vacation house owner with one untillable acre shows up with 30 utterly unprepared people and no supplies, but that is a pretty extreme scenario which could be met with “we’re sorry but we don’t have enough to help you out. Your property, your friends and family, your responsibility.” Especially since plenty of the locals will be unprepared as well, and therefore in no position to be getting snooty about others’ lack.

            In this crowd, though, a more likely scenario seems to me to be a vacation house aka BOL with some non-trivial supplies in place, and some more arriving in the vehicles, with several people.

            When they arrive, are they going to be greeted with roadblocks and guns, and told that the supplies in their house have already been looted…excuse me: confiscated. For the good of the ‘good neighbor’ community?

            And if the people at the roadblock are so foolish as to let those vehicles turn around without looting them, who would blame the people denied access to their own property for sneaking back later and gunning down every last one of the murderous thugs who preen and call themselves ‘good neighbors’?

            After all, what goes around comes around. That’s just exactly what TEOTWAWKI may include. So before one gets all huffy about people who mind their own business when at their house, maybe one should consider the possibility some may be police or retired military or even just seasoned deer hunters who may view thuggery by so called good neighbors as exactly what it is, and respond accordingly.

            There is something to be said for minding your own business.

            • Agreed. Don’t steal from others. Deeds are written specifically to prove ownership. I have mine.

  17. PrepperDoc says:

    I had a person take valuable land from me once. Their surveyor made an obvious mistake and they claimed land that belonged to my father. He died because of a mistake by a urologist. My dad was very, very ill, and although the urologist blew it, I didn’t do anything about it. My dad died a much more merciful passing that what was within months away from him, and it might have been the graciousness of God.

    I’ve made mistakes — big ones — in my life, and been granted mercy by people who I didn’t even know before then. I learned from it, and I did better.

    When my family inherited the land and realized the other person had “taken” our land — I went and look at the street front land, and the person’s modest home, and knew they didn’t do it willfully, they just had a stupid surveryor. The number of years was large, because my father was too ill to pay attention to all his property, and we let it drop. Based on the laws, we might not have prevailed anyway.

    People who have no graciousness, who would take the property of others willfully, take their life sustenance that they own — I just don’t know what to say about that. I think anyone living with such people…..faces a very bleak future. I have been privileged to live among a completely different kind of thought process, one that is giving and gracious.

    This has been eye opening. Good luck when you are ill.

    • Jesse Mathewson says:

      Apples and oranges / survival versus now – no one said they would steal your land.

      Including myself we have simply tried to help you understand that “claiming” ownership as an unknown versus as a member of a community will make a large difference –

      • PrepperDoc says:

        Ah, Jesse, I wish you were correct, but the record is clear. some of the statements are confusing, but the overall is stark:

        ” Even you folks that have weekend places are not locals and will not be welcome, trust me I know. The food,water,wildlife in these areas will be considered ours just the same as the food you have in your storage ”
        — your food & your land’s holdings — taken

        ” It’s just like those rich folks buying into the big survival shelters. What make them so sure they are going to be let in when the big one happens. I see a bunch of locally hired security forces locking them out and having a pretty nice setup for themselves and their families.”
        — The writer may not have been espousing this blatant THEFT — but it sounded like he was….

        Folks, people are accusing honest PROPERTY OWNERS of being Socialists for merely wanting to be allowed to do what they want with their own property. When in fact the ones claiming their COMMUNITY will take over the PROPERTY of land owners they don’t “like”. Obviously it is the latter people who are the true Socialists/Communists/Thieves. This has happened in Zimbabwe, South Africa, nation after nation. It has happened in Venzuela most recently.

        Those rich (& stupid) people who buy up the big tracts of land—if you don’t respect THEIR rights, how would anyone else trust that you will later respect others’ rights?

        Once you become thieves, there is no end to it. That not biblical, not Christian, and not constitutional. Let the fellow get to his property. You might need the skills that made him RICH at some point…..perhaps he is a chemist, physician, engineer, inventor…..and foolish would be the person who turned him away.

        If you’re going to set yourself up as Above Moses, Above Jefferson, Above Everyone…..eventually someone is going to put a bullet in you and then be Above You.

        It may not seem reasonable, but living the best you can by the laws given to us thousands of years ago, is about the only way that has a really good long term prospect.

        • Jesse Mathewson says:

          Whats unreasonable is not being willing to see others pov, and claiming yours is inspired by God and Constitution (which btw, Jefferson neither signed NOR endorsed)

          • You disagree that theft is illegal in both the Bible and the Constitution?

            • Jesse Mathewson says:

              What is taxation if not theft under the law. Jefferson didnt sign it or endorse it, (the constitution)

              The bible at least the new testament states clearly that property isn’t most important, Paul/epistles state clearly that community is more important.

              If you OT it, wiping out potential threats was endorsed and promoted.

              • Jesse Mathewson says:

                Lets approach this another way, you don’t get to know the community around your bol, they as a group make a “law” that all must have skills/ability/ be known to stay…what would you do?

                • Jesse Mathewson says:

                  Lastly, here in the western usa minus commifornia- ranchers and farmers have had their land stolen by constitutionally elected officials and their laws…we simply do not like that nor do most of us like feds in general/ blm being among the top along with atf and fbi.

                  • PrepperDoc says:

                    You didn’t answer my question did you?

                    I don’t know where you’re getting this community thing, what I read is not one jot or tittle will disappear from the law, Love God first of all, treat others the way you would want to be treated. Don’t be conformed, be transformed into the image of God. (Paraphrase)

                    Well I also don’t like property taxes, I don’t see Jesus saying that you could threaten people to take away their property and call that “community.” Nor is it constitutional to take away property rights on the pretense of some skill required.

                    • Jesse Mathewson says:

                      Stop, when did I say take away anything? Why would I take your property?

                      Ive been quite clear in that regards. And you keep bringing up the constitution, TEOTWAWKI that particular piece of paper along with all million plus laws written under the guide of it wont matter. What will matter is community and whether or not youve earned your place among them, hopefully before so as to avoid the problems that may face you afterwords.

                      I take it youre an OT guy then? Or are you a T.U.L.I.P. man, or a health and wealther, Jehovah Witness, 7th day, Mormon, Christian Scientist, you see where I am going?

                      I will say again theft is wrong just as it would be to assume you have any rights in a community you havent been apart of except as a tourist.

                      Stop over analyzing it, its simple.

                      Every community will be and is different, and yet, humans by and large being the tribal types we are at our core, will be acceptant of tribe, not of outsiders regardless their supposed and honestly unverifiable paper documents. Again…TEOTWAWKI not society as we know it.

                    • PrepperDoc,

                      Nor is it constitutional to take away property rights on the pretense of some skill required.

                      I think your assumption is that we still have a functioning rule of law, and perhaps Jesse is looking at a post SHTF environment where that may no longer be true. It’s a perspective thing I suspect, and while I hate to quote a commy, Mao was correct when he said that power flows from the barrel of a gun.

              • Jesse,

                What is taxation if not theft under the law. Jefferson didnt sign it or endorse it, (the constitution)

                The fact that Jefferson didn’t sign or endorse the document really means nothing in the overall scheme of things; but, the document does it’s level best to make things fair; because the founders understood that direct democracy is a tyranny of the majority. And that is why we have enumerated powers that in theory protect us from each other and the government. It is why for instance we have the Electoral College.
                I’ve heard it said that democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner, where a Republic is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner,; but there is a law against eating sheep and the sheep are armed.
                As for taxation, Article I, Section 8 as well as the 16th Amendment gives the authority to the government to do so. If they have overstepped their bounds, and I think they often do, then it is up to us to vote out the old and vote in the new, and hold their feet to the fire. If anyone thinks that none of these elected officials actually represent their interests, then they may run for the office and do the job themselves.

                • Jesse Mathewson says:

                  OP the good “dr” used his name like that of a god in conjunction with the constitution…I simply corrected his one of many errors on this thread. As for the rest, we will have to agree to disagree. I believe quite differently regarding the efficicacy of said document. Having seen firsthand the affects of its enabling of some at the cost of most. But that is neither here nor there and doubt would get in the way of a good dinner or two should you ever come this direction or I find myself in your neck.

        • ” Even you folks that have weekend places are not locals and will not be welcome, trust me I know. The food,water,wildlife in these areas will be considered ours just the same as the food you have in your storage

          This seems to be the parts of my post you misunderstood Doc. I am saying that the people in these areas look at the water and wildlife the same as you look at your food storage. I never at any time said anything about TAKING your food or supplies
          . I really don’t even know why I am bothering to try and explain this anymore

          • Your wording was ambiguous. You’ve explained that portion but you have many other sentences that bear explaining.

      • For practical purposes, doesn’t denying people access to their own land amount to stealing? Or armed robbery? In a crisis, isn’t it condemning innocent people to death? Death for the crime of having been insufficiently cordial to people who sound like they have a negative interest in the new people in the first place?

        An attitude of “We don’t want you here in the first place but we’ll tolerate you in good times if you spend enough money but in bad times we’ll shoot you if you insist on occupying that property you have a mere deed to” does not provide a great incentive to socialize.

        The chances of government never returning to the land, or of prosecutors never looking at actions people took during the crisis are historically extremely rare. They have happened but I don’t think I’d want to bet twenty five years in prison on that happening. Gunning down families because they insisted on going to their own property doesn’t sit well with a lot of people, including juries. And if one is going to refuse people access to land to which they have a mere deed, one is threatening to kill them if they insist.

        • No one is saying that if they can prove they own the land, they will not be allowed to go to it, but if this is the only time they plan on showing up is when the balloon goes up, they are not going to be made very welcome. The first point is, whether you are in a city or the country, groups of people are going to ban together and lock down their area, neighborhood or city block and just like the national guard after a disaster they are not going to allow anyone in that can not prove they live there. Second, the residents that live there and have planned for such emergency are going to have plans for securing their supplies. Local businesses will be part of this plan and will not be selling to outsiders. You could wind up arriving at your retreat and finding that that is all you have and no way to resupply. Whether you are bugging in or out, It goes back to the basics of having your documents in order so you can prove you should be allowed in, having supplies on hand, having a skill that people need and are therefore want to bring you into the group and most of all spend as much time as you can in your planned area getting to know people. Even if you bug in, if no one knows you and you leave the area, you may not be allowed back in unless you can prove you live there. If you or some one in your area has family coming to join you, someone had better be at the check point to vouch for them and bring them in. These are just common sense issues that we are all going to face if the big one happens and hoards of unprepared people are out scavenging. Roads are going to be blocked off and no one is going to be allowed to just walk or drive into these areas. Many people on this and other sites have already built or joined groups to survive what ever comes and one of the first this these groups are going to do is secure their areas whether it is a small neighborhood, town or just an apartment building. I keep copies of my ID, insurance policies and titles hidden away in my vehicle just incase something happened while we were away and had to prove to the national guard that we live here and should be allowed into the area. Just thoughts that everyone should be thinking about.

          • JAS

            You could wind up arriving at your retreat and finding that that is all you have and no way to resupply.

            OR you could wind up arriving at your retreat and finding that it is now inhabited by others who are armed and won’t let you in.
            This is where knowing the local community comes in; since, they might naturally have an interest in what’s going on, and who’s around.
            Something similar happened to a friend of mine more than 20 years ago. He had a nice A frame cabin on some property in southern Ohio that he used for hunting; but, he had not really spent much time fitting into the neighborhood and getting to know the local folks. A friend built him a large woodstove from heavy 1/2 inch plate steel, and he and some other friends took the stove to his cabin to install it. It took three of them to set it in place, after which they bolted it to the floor and lined it with fire brick and sand. The following weekend when he went to the cabin, the stove was gone. This is a true story, and just something to think about.

        • Correct. Denying people access to their property is a form of armed theft. In my state, that would be a forceful felony, and lethal force can be used in that event.

          If people are going to set themselves up as Judge Jury and Executioner…..some one else is going to conclude that has to stop. It may not be me, it may be someone in your own den…..I would not want to live with those kinds of peoople. People have their own right to chose how they want to live, but when they begin to take away my property……then we have a pro1blem. I’m not taking anything from them — chances are good that I am well supplied in most areas; and may be able to help them in some areas. There is give and take in this world. But not with thieves.

  18. Here’s something to consider.

    Your retreat property is 3-4 miles south of a small town on a two-lane rural road, any entry other than from the north is unrealistically long/complicated. You spend every 3-day weekend there, and a number of other weekends, and have for the last 2 years. When you are there, you are working on your property. You know your 2 closest neighbors enough to wave, but you have really never spoken.

    “It” happens. You head out to your retreat. There is a road block on the north end of town, manned by locals (think older teens), none of them know you. Now what?

    IF this could happen to you, I would suggest that you figure out how you are going to handle this NOW. A shouting match with the people manning the road block, might get you shot by the overwatch person.

    I’m not trying to start another thread or a long discussion, I just want those who MIGHT end up in this position to put aside any pre-conceived notions of “rights” and figure out what you can/will do.

    • PrepperDoc says:

      I refuse to live in a den of thieves.

      That’s no way to live.

      I’m in a position to simply let them steal my property. Which is probably what I will do.

      Do you know when you shoot something from 1000 yards away you have to wait several seconds to even hear the strike? Do you know what the correction is in MOA or MilD is for your rifle? And how it varies with temperature? Angle? Wind?

      Thieves may do well for a while, but they won’t do well forever. There’s an accounting for all of us that comes eventually. Even thousands of years ago they wrote “not to move the ancient Marker. “. To be hospitable to strangers.

      That’s not saying that you have to sacrifice your own family for those who are ill prepared, but you don’t have to worse in their lot in life. And certainly you don’t have to steal from them. Jesus said that to hate a man is equivalent to murder and he wasNt cheerful about what would happen to murders.

      Everybody gets sick. I wish you good luck. What goes around comes around. If you hate the very people could’ve helped you, well I guess you picked how you want to go.

      • Also it is not about being a so called den of thieves. It is about preparing and looking out for your own. If your family is down to one bottle of penicillin and some total stranger shows up completely unprepared and needing it, are you going to put your family at risk and give it to him? Part of being prepared is knowing your area and the people who live there, whether you plan on bugging in or out. If you bug in, are you and your neighbors going to let the masses just over run your neighborhood or are you going to lock it down and only let in the people that can prove they belong there? I hope the answer is the latter.

        • What you are doing is called a “strawman”. You invent an issue — a bottle of penicillin — when the argument is over whether people have the right to pillage my stored belongings on my land, and to prevent me lawful access to my property.

          I’m don’t disagree that it is wise to know the people around you — but that is not a condition of having access to your own property under the laws of this nation, nor in the bible.

          “Looking out for your own” means protecting them from EVIL, not from honest people who merely want to get to their property.

          It is not unreasonable in a time of danger to ask people to explain their reason for going that direction, but when they show you legal ownership…..you become in the wrong if you refuse them access.

          • “It is not unreasonable in a time of danger to ask people to explain their reason for going that direction, but when they show you legal ownership…..you become in the wrong if you refuse them access.”

            I agree. Nothing wrong in theory with blocking access to your town, but threatening people with deadly violence for trying to get to their own property is not reasonable.

            Which is why I would never want to leave a roadblock in the hands of teenagers: they simply do not have the experience or self-restraint an older person should have acquired. They could escalate when an older person would work to de-escalate, especially when people on both sides are obviously going to be under extreme stress.

            • Jesse Mathewson says:

              Some quite nice theories, seems like several of us read allot of fiction, specifically the kind NOT based in fact, historical precedent or reality.

              Humans are animals, generally they do not want to hurt others. However, they are also tribal/pack/pod…call it what you will, if you do not belong, things will not be easy for you.

              You claim to want to learn, and yet when confronted with an alternative to the reality you believe should exist, you react quite vehemently. The term is, cognitive dissonance. The constitution is a piece of paper, the bible a book written, rewritten, individually “interpreted”, almost always differently by different people.

              If you choose to live by its principles understand the primary one…Jesus himself counseled others not on ownership of property and deeds, titles and rhe like but rather the benefit of community.

              For the last time, I do hope you are willing to try and understand, in times of chaos (not anarchy) but the pure chaos that occurs when government invades or vacates- eg TEOTWAWKI etc., tribes will form…if your bol is in a community that you have avoided becoming involved with or being recognized by, a piece of paper may help, but likely will only allow you to prove yourself after the fact.

              PrepperDoc, if you havent noticed, when it comes to medical questions most of us, especially myself prefer you answering – or tell people to talk to a medical professional. Everyone has things they are good at, my personal and professional experience allows me something you do not have. Experience in this area.

              I am not arguing ambiguous moralities in existance, merely stating what will most certainly and already does exist where city folk rarely travel. A sense of community and trust, something earned NOT PURCHASED.

              Please understand, I have shared more with this pack than I have with some tribe members…and yet, every single member of the tribe I have spent so much time on building and networking together…would and have stepped in front of a bullet for, been there for etc., others involved in the tribe.

              This is something that regardless stacks of papers you have will not change. Sure approaches vary, however, the reality is simple. Gain the trust of those around you now and your bol/s and you will survive, act in a stubborn manner and refuse this simple concept and you will write your own ending.

              This is reality, not a matter of whose law etc., wrol / TEOTWAWKI erases the idea of law outside of the very simple process most rural living individuals I know follow –

              A simple code, trust only those who earn it, honor your word, help those in need when able, family/tribe first always.

              Sure it may vary in approach but the principles are similar regardless your location on the globe.

              As always thank you for your medical advice in matters I understand the learned idea regarding “law” and “order” however, look around you.

              In your life who have you been able to trust absolutely, without any compunction. Government and its bully boys, or your tribe?

              If you have a bol, ensure you invest in earning trust within the community surrounding it.

              Otherwise, be ready to prove yourself. Most people I know, dont like thieves or stealing and especially do not want to kill again, however, all of us will do so without a second thought if it means the lives of our family/tribe over those who are not apart of it.

              I hope this makes sense, I have the utmost respect for you, a good man, learned in areas I have the barest hint of knowledge in. Give me the same respect, I have hands on experience from many areas most muricans fear to go, mentally, physically and geographically.

              Thank you for your time and as always, please keep posting. The ability to adapt and change is what allows and promotes survival, not how much money, what papers we have or what we stored away.

              This is my attempt at offering educated, realistic advice. I wont force it on you, I will ask that you at least consider it though.

    • And the other thought is to how are you going to prove you really have property there. Just like during a hurricane or other natural disaster, you better have proof that you own a place in the area or you may not be allowed to proceed. During those times the national guard only lets in people that can prove they have a right to be there. If you can’t prove you live in a storm damaged area you will be turned away, so why wouldn’t locals do the same during bad times when the risk of outside looters will be high. I’m not trying to say a person would not be allowed to go to their property if they can prove they have property in the area, but if the only time you plan to show up is during a major disaster, you should plan on bringing everything you are going to need with you. You have an added bonus of being able to provide medical treatment and that would make letting you through advantageous. Other city preppers with nothing to offer other than using up local resources may not be as well received. Just thoughts for those who plan to bug out to some far off piece of land when it hits. Make sure you have your documents in order and with you and hopefully know at least a few of your neighbors by name. Better yet, spend some time in the area getting to know people and local businesses.

      • Deed. That’s what they are for. And unless some thief has cut my chain, I have the key that opens the lock!

      • JAS & all,

        Better yet, spend some time in the area getting to know people and local businesses.

        Amen. Although I plan to shelter in place, I still have a rather large rural community around me. We talk about a Mutual Assistance Group (MAG) and contracts and documentation, etc; but, I think the community / tribal aspect of life will really win out in a real stressful situation. I actually have two MAGs I belong to. The first that’s rather official and where group members know each other and have the MAG understanding, and the second just consisting of local business people, farmers and neighbors who would come to anyone’s assistance who needs something they can help with. This is however in good times with the ROL intact. If someone shows up at my home at 0300 and they have broken down in their vehicle, and need assistance, I’ll do what I can and if it’s inclement weather, I may let them not only use the phone; but, wait in the house until help arrives; but, I will be prepared meaning armed and with a phone handy. If the person I’m helping turns out to be nefarious, I can hold them and we can wait on the sheriff to come and claim them.
        After a major event where there may b no ROL or a situation where the authorities are stretched to the limit, then I / we may well be on my own, which in the short run everyone really is, and those seeking assistance will have to be treated with more caution.
        In my various firearms classes we teach not only safe and proper handling, etc., we try to build mindset with a simple maxim, that works even in “good” times: When you call 911, keep in mind, that when seconds count, help is only minutes away.
        Be safe my friends; but, be realistic.

  19. Quietly_Will says:

    Very interesting article for some one who lives in the burbs, knows his skill levels and age restrictions, thus my home is my bug in location. Very interesting feed back too. People are going to look out for number one. I have my stash for my defined period that I think I will need it. I have my plan to defend it as well. My stash, my house, land, community, tribe it is all the same, just a matter of degree. Everyone on this site has their stash and plan to defend what they deem important as ROL will be out the window. Movement is going to be on foot and towns are going to barricade. In an event you better have a bike to get home on and you better head that way ASAP or you are just a victim in a traffic jam of sheeple. I have family within a mile of here and because they are in a different neighborhood don’t know that they could get to my house. How are you going to get to your bunker, really. How did folks in Katrina get to theirs? After 911? I don’t think I have read much that shocked me on this site. I don’t have to agree with it all, I’m here for the education I get on “how to”. I test what I read for myself and keep what fits.

    • PrepperDoc says:

      Yes, I understand your point, but to stand up for the rights of the widow, the fatherless—others who are less powerfull, — to speak out for doing what is right — where are we as a Soul if we stand by say “I did not know it.” There’s an answer back in King David’s writings.

      I may not be able to save a man from his lack of preparation, but I will not push him to his grave. Nor will I deny him what is rightfully his. And I will assiduously avoid those who would— they are very, very dangerous people.

      • Jesse Mathewson says:

        Ive simply seen what happens when govs collapse, several times. First its not total chaos, second things become very insular.

        Calling someone with actual experience who is simply trying to help you understand the IMPORTANCE OF BECOMING PART OF THE LOCAL COMMUNITY – “very, very, dangerous”

        Your call. If I am dangerous to someone who obviously is poorly prepared and unwilling to see alternative views. Good.

        I wont apologize for making clear statements that you misconstrued.

        • Odd. Jesse, does this apply to you?
          ” Nor will I deny him what is rightfully his. And I will assiduously avoid those who would— they are very, very dangerous people.”

          Do you condone denying people their own property, their own stored items, access to their land? If not, then it doesn’t apply to you. Did you take offense at something that didn’t apply to you?

          Do you disagree that lawless people are a danger to all around them?

          I doubt that you disagree with that…..

          Here is the entire post Jessee — tell me where you were implicated or where YOUR “clear statement” was misconstrued:

          “Yes, I understand your point, but to stand up for the rights of the widow, the fatherless—others who are less powerfull, — to speak out for doing what is right — where are we as a Soul if we stand by say “I did not know it.” There’s an answer back in King David’s writings.

          I may not be able to save a man from his lack of preparation, but I will not push him to his grave. Nor will I deny him what is rightfully his. And I will assiduously avoid those who would— they are very, very dangerous people.”

          Jesse, all of that is actually TRUE, isn’t it?

      • Not to be sarcastic, nor do I condone stealing what is rightfully someone else’s. All I am stating is that it is going to be a very different world if a really big balloon goes up. People already selling others homes in developments and then never build the development, so just imagine how the people selling big survival shelters may act when there is no ROL. Most people on here have plans for whether they are going to bug in or bug out and I would really like to hear what your plans are if say an EMP happened tomorrow and took out the entire grid. Do you plan on just going on as usual? Are you staying put? Do you have a group that will work together? Where ever you plan to be, do you have plans to secure the area or just let anyone come in? Do you plan to just share what ever you have with who ever shows up? These are thoughts that everyone should be considering well before something big happens. You have a lot to offer a group if you choose, but a lot of those coming out of a city will have nothing to offer and are going to be mostly on their own if they have not made friends in the area. Again, I would really like hearing what your thoughts are on surviving something big.

        • JAS — you didn’t put a name to whomeever you were adressing so I don’t know exactly whether or not you wanted an answer from ME specifically or from others

          You asked a lot of questions. An entire book could be written. To try and answer: “I would really like to hear what your plans are if say an EMP happened tomorrow and took out the entire grid”

          I am pretty well planned out for EMP. If you’ve been reading this or other sites for a while, you might know why I say that.

          I have food,, water, land,, seed, skills(albeit not well honed), fuel, solar, medications, firearms, and everything that goes with them. In my neighborhood there are a wealth of very useful and important skills. My goal will be to save their lives, and perhaps others will be of the same mindset. We can secure our perimeter, respect everyone’s property rights, do the best that we can to make wise decisions that will strike the balance between opposing concerns. In my mind, the Scriptures and the Constitution are important documents that give a lot of guidance while we wait to see what (??!!) comes next, whether good or bad.

          It is likely that the knowledge and skills many have, will save the lives of many people, and that different groups of society will once again flourish. That will probably depend on the CHARACTER and ETHICS that the leaders of those groups possess…..”righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people”

          My 2 cents.

        • JAS,
          If an EMP happened tomorrow, my biggest concern would be very personal. I have a pacemaker, and if that doesn’t survive, then the whole issue for me at least, is moot. Assuming it survives, and I suspect that it well might, then it comes down to layers. If he generator survives, then we will have electricity for as long as the propane holds out, and at that point we would no doubt go into austerity mode and only run the generator a little bit each day, to fill all of our water containers and charge batteries. We have enough food to last the two of us for a long time, first with easy to use cans, then dehydrated that just needs water, and finally down to grinding or sprouting grains. We could continue to feed the chickens for a while and still have fresh eggs. Worse case for water we would have to bucket it up from the creek and then filter and/or boil it; but, we could do OK for at least a while.
          As for people coming here out of the city, I suspect that would take a while, since while we are along a main truck route, we are way out of the city, and although we have no formal agreements with the neighbors, we have all had discussions and have similar attitudes about intruders and trespassers.
          Pretty much any of my neighbors who have working equipment would help out, as I would with them.
          Assuming I survived the initial event, we would survive the aftermath as long as we could.

  20. Of course it is just fiction, but the 2013 National Geographic docu-drama “American Blackout” 2013 offers a glimpse of different ways of dealing with a nationwide calamity.

    The “survivalist” in that (fictional) movie was extremely well prepared ( a good thing) and extremely selfish (not a Christian virtue, you would agree? ) — and he was foolish enough to believe that he and his motley crew could defend a large segment of land with a child as a watchman.

    The starving neighbors asked for food assistance and he ran them off at gunpoint. They of course returned in darkness, overpowered the 12 year old, and took some food…..its fiction of course, but the storyline has them not harm a hair on anyone.

    The survivalist goes after them (greatly outnumbered of course) and nearly gets himself and others killed.

    Of course he should have learned his neighbors in his intended bug out location, and life would have gone better if he had become a part of the community instead of proceeding so selfishly. You can’t defend a property with only 1 or 2 adults….

    So I don’t plan to use my far-off properties as bug out locations — but I still assert that I own that land. And if I’m driven out of my house, I may well head there. And not in a really happy frame of mind! If I, like Ulysses, find vagabonds have taken over my property, it may not go well for them, just as the gluttonous men in Homer’s tale did not end up well.

    Treating others with as much graciousness as you can is a nicer way to live life in my humble opinion. You never know when you might need help. Threatening others, or despising them, or hating them— who have done nothing wrong…..not a good plan at least, in my opinion, anyway….

    • Jesse Mathewson says:

      How many times are you going to twist our words? This is disgusting.

      • You are just wasting time at this point Jesse. Doc refuses to see any other opinion than his own. I have dealt with narrow minded people like this before. He fails to see how his threats to snipe people or refuse them medical treatment go completely against what he is stating himself. i would just let it go if I were you.

        • I haven’t threatened anyone. I have simply stated my abilities and pointed out the consequences of failure to follow the laws.

          Armed thieves— that’s a different matter. As I pointed, out, the laws of my state may well allow for an armed response to such people.

          Please show me which words I have twisted. Actual quotes would be a good way to settle misunderstandings.

          • Hi PrepperDoc, I think most state laws consider armed criminals to be explicitly threatening innocent victims with deadly force.

            I’ve noticed that some people who apparently consider themselves the arbiters of who is a ‘good neighbor’ and who isn’t seem to be conflating ‘property owner who doesn’t live here full time AKA rich a**hole’ with ‘the golden horde from the city demanding handouts’.

            In my book they are totally different. FWIW I also suspect the self-styled ‘good neighbors’ might be surprised about their own popularity among local full time residents if they start gunning down property owners trying to access their own property.

            Be that as it may, we are well advised to be aware that self-righteous murderers may get between us and our BOLs if we bug out too late. That they claim they have the moral and neighborly right to do so really won’t matter much to us when their bullets come through the windshield.

            People who commit armed robbery during TEOTWAWKI are would-be murderers, just as any armed robbers are at any time. Their claiming they are ‘good neighbors’ doesn’t change that.

            I’m glad to see this conversation. It is good to be aware that there are heavily armed would-be criminals out there who feel morally pure about their criminal intentions towards people who have ‘mere deeds’.

            When it gets right down to it though, what they think of themselves or of us doesn’t really matter: They define themselves by their acts.

      • To settle misundersstandings, you might point out exactly (using quotes if possible) which words you believe I have twisted.) The story I told was of a National Geographic movie — not your words. The things that I objected to —

        “Threatening others, or despising them, or hating them” I believe are borne out in the comments of various people above. Taking their land, their strongholds, despising — I believe you would agree those statements have been made, no?

        So explain to me what I have twisted and if I can understand it (you see that I’m not always the brightest!) I’ll gladly apologize. It is a wise man who gains from crititicism.

        • Jesse Mathewson says:

          I stated this, and have not once stated stealing your precious land. …

          Some quite nice theories, seems like several of us read allot of fiction, specifically the kind NOT based in fact, historical precedent or reality.

          Humans are animals, generally they do not want to hurt others. However, they are also tribal/pack/pod…call it what you will, if you do not belong, things will not be easy for you.

          You claim to want to learn, and yet when confronted with an alternative to the reality you believe should exist, you react quite vehemently. The term is, cognitive dissonance. The constitution is a piece of paper, the bible a book written, rewritten, individually “interpreted”, almost always differently by different people.

          If you choose to live by its principles understand the primary one…Jesus himself counseled others not on ownership of property and deeds, titles and rhe like but rather the benefit of community.

          For the last time, I do hope you are willing to try and understand, in times of chaos (not anarchy) but the pure chaos that occurs when government invades or vacates- eg TEOTWAWKI etc., tribes will form…if your bol is in a community that you have avoided becoming involved with or being recognized by, a piece of paper may help, but likely will only allow you to prove yourself after the fact.

          PrepperDoc, if you havent noticed, when it comes to medical questions most of us, especially myself prefer you answering – or tell people to talk to a medical professional. Everyone has things they are good at, my personal and professional experience allows me something you do not have. Experience in this area.

          I am not arguing ambiguous moralities in existance, merely stating what will most certainly and already does exist where city folk rarely travel. A sense of community and trust, something earned NOT PURCHASED.

          Please understand, I have shared more with this pack than I have with some tribe members…and yet, every single member of the tribe I have spent so much time on building and networking together…would and have stepped in front of a bullet for, been there for etc., others involved in the tribe.

          This is something that regardless stacks of papers you have will not change. Sure approaches vary, however, the reality is simple. Gain the trust of those around you now and your bol/s and you will survive, act in a stubborn manner and refuse this simple concept and you will write your own ending.

          This is reality, not a matter of whose law etc., wrol / TEOTWAWKI erases the idea of law outside of the very simple process most rural living individuals I know follow –

          A simple code, trust only those who earn it, honor your word, help those in need when able, family/tribe first always.

          Sure it may vary in approach but the principles are similar regardless your location on the globe.

          As always thank you for your medical advice in matters I understand the learned idea regarding “law” and “order” however, look around you.

          In your life who have you been able to trust absolutely, without any compunction. Government and its bully boys, or your tribe?

          If you have a bol, ensure you invest in earning trust within the community surrounding it.

          Otherwise, be ready to prove yourself. Most people I know, dont like thieves or stealing and especially do not want to kill again, however, all of us will do so without a second thought if it means the lives of our family/tribe over those who are not apart of it.

          I hope this makes sense, I have the utmost respect for you, a good man, learned in areas I have the barest hint of knowledge in. Give me the same respect, I have hands on experience from many areas most muricans fear to go, mentally, physically and geographically.

          Thank you for your time and as always, please keep posting. The ability to adapt and change is what allows and promotes survival, not how much money, what papers we have or what we stored away.

          This is my attempt at offering educated, realistic advice. I wont force it on you, I will ask that you at least consider it though.

          • Jesse Mathewson says:

            And true to form you didnt respond.

            Additionally, instead of being truthful, eg., your family has held land for decades (by default a part of community) you chose to lead us on with half truths.

            Dr. I expected better of you, you have twisted our words, and acted as most east coast types do…in your own interests without actually looking at what is being said.

            I was wrong to think you could offer my tribe anything. Rather we will likely stick with our actice duty emts and field medics. At least they understand reality in grid down situations.

            As for others, grammar nazi as much as you like…the intent is clear.

            I expected more from most. Quite saddening, when modern “men” cannot even be honest and speak straight – a Shoshone chief once said, “white eyes has forked tongue” he was right.

  21. People in rural areas will start shooting if threatened by mobs of refugees fleeing the city. Don’t expect to be welcomed with arms outstretched.

    This is pretty much true. Come by yourself or a very small family group and bring resources or skills, and you my get included. We tell our urban Hunter Education students that if they want to hunt deer on a rural property, you don’t knock on the door the first morning of deer season and expect to get permission. Instead, go months ahead of the season, find the landowner, discuss your plans, and get permission. Then offer to help with chores, or after hunting, offer the landowner some of your properly dressed and processed game. This can go a long way toward getting a reliable hunting property, and I suspect the same thing would work for a prep bug out location.

    when selecting a rural retreat location get as far away from urban areas and main roads as possible)

    I actually live on a rather main two lane road; but, it is well outside of town. The advantage of living where I do (on a major truck route) is that prior to an SHTF event, we never worry about snow storms and the like; because, this road is one of those that gets hit hard and first by the plows and salt trucks.

    Food staples include rice, beans, honey, wheat, sugar, tea, coffee, salt, pepper, baking soda, cooking oil etc.

    Good list; but, all of these need water to prepare, and although you mentioned it, it cannot be stressed too much.

    Next you will need something to cook on. I recommend one of the Coleman multi fuel camp stoves

    We have numerous ways to cook with wood and propane and always have abundant propane on hand; but, I also have one of those Coleman stoves, and always keep a supply of Coleman fuel, K1 kerosene, and unleaded gasoline on hand.

    I recommend a good pump-action 12 gauge shotgun and a handgun. The Mossberg 500/590 or Remington 870 are both excellent choices. For versatility put back a verity of shot-shell loads as well as buckshot and rifled slugs.

    Keep the shot shells and slugs for hunting only. Tests have shown that anything smaller than #4 buck is often ineffective for self defense. Also, the standard 9 pellet 00 Buckshot is being replaced by a better 8 pellet version for self defense. If you’re counting your life on this, get the good stuff.

    Handguns should be at least .38 caliber or above. I like both revolvers and semi-automatic handguns, in skilled hands both can be effective. Stay with what you know and practice

    I assume you mean .38 special, which is actually .357 caliber or the 35 caliber range. Also in that range are the 9mm and the 380 Auto (.355). Newer bullets for these 35 caliber cartridges have proven very effective for self defense; but, the only real defense with any firearm is practicing enough to hit the target when operating under stress.

    My favorite foraging tool in urban areas is the Savage Model 42.

    Urban areas heck!!! They are a great all around versatile long gun with a rifle and shotgun in one package.
    I have the .22 rimfire over .410 shotgun calibers and the .22 WMR over 20 gauge.
    The .22/.410 was the first gun I ever hunted with as a kid.

  22. I am not long on this site. I’m adding to my knowledge I got living all these years in the service, living on my own at 15, working any job I could get, and always asking questions about everything. I have direct contacts with the good Lord. I try to be helpful when I can. I trade skills for things I can’t afford, or for things I have yet to learn to do. Most of what I have read here tonight is a Problem for some people and a thought out planned for action by others. You all are partly wrong, and partly right.
    My long life is the result of working with what I have learned along the side of the road. When you are new to a community you cant just jump in and fit in. Even when just transferring to a new unit I had to introduce myself and learn how that unit did the things I knew how to do already. After I had proven I could do my job their way, I got to start changing things by suggesting an easier but still effective way to do it. Some changes happened but more did not. I learned some better ways to do stuff I had been doing the same way for years. I also learned not to just say no to new ideas. I learned to ask good questions, listen to the answers, ask more questions and make it a team effort to come up with the best way to fix a problem.
    Telling a person they are just wrong means they will never hear the reason you believe they are wrong and you will never listen to why they think you are wrong.
    My outlook to this discussion is in the middle. If you own a new property in a new area, getting to know the area, the neighbors and the local sports teams and fair schedule will open a lot of doors for you. Going to the local church and helping out with the boy scouts will get people used to seeing you and they will say hi to you when you fill up your trucks tank at the store.
    When I started doing the above I went from the “who’s that guy” to He’s that guy from over on bowie street. After a while longer I became Andrew. Now I’m Sauce. They know I can shoot. I can teach others to shoot. I can lay brick. Fix cars and trucks. Do electrical work, Bar B Q most anything, do plumbing, talk forever, listen without judging. and I am always asking more questions. This took a couple of years to happen.
    Now I have moved to my new wife’s home town and I get to do it all over again. Most don’t know that I am a Prepper. Most never will. I used to be a cop. I let people know when the time comes that I don’t break the law. I don’t drink when I shoot or hunt. I applaud common sense.
    Both sides to the argument tonight each have some common sense. But each side has had different life experences. The trick to learn is learning from others mistakes and better ideas. So calm down, sleep on it, and tomorrow use your brains to go over the ideas and come up with what you think you would do and why. then stick with what you think is the right thing to do.
    If this works for you the way it has for me great. If not do it your way.

    • Sauceman,
      I agree with your whole comment and have pretty much done the same thing myself; but, perhaps the most important thing you stated IMHO was:

      listen without judging.

      Along with your other suggestions, that one thing can get you a long way

  23. Here are the cold hard facts that anyone planning on bugging out had better understand. Most small communities in the country look at outsiders as taking their stuff. My family comes from the mountains of WV, VA and KY and they don’t except people coming in to their communities and buying up their lands. When my grandfather died, my father was to inherit his house, but only if he would move into it. He did not and the house was passed on to the next member of the family that would move into it. No one from away was going to buy that house. It would rot first. When I lived and served as a police officer in Maine, I saw many people move there, buy a lobster boat, get a license and start fishing. Their boat was burned to the water within a few weeks, because they were fishing on what was considered private ocean property that belonged to one family or another. I’ve seen out-of-stater’s vehicle destroyed, because the came to Maine and were hunting on what locals considered their private hunting land even though they didn’t own it themselves. If you plan to go buy a piece of property to use as a retreat in some rural community, you had better spend a lot of time there and get to know what you are getting into. Get a feeling about how they feel about outsiders, not just during good times but in bad. When times are tough, you more than likely are not going to be welcomed with open arms in small towns in this country. Many of these communities may never except you as a resident, while others will eventually consider you at least as being OK and work will you.

  24. Not just me, but several others have concluded that the sentence structure chosen by some here indicated they would effectively pose armed theft of others’ property & possessions. Some of the writers then restated their position so as to NOT advocate armed theft.

    That’s good.

    I don’t think anyone disagrees that it is wise to become a part of the community that you plan to bug out to. Can we just get that straight?

    However, it is patently obvious that you may simply be unable to do that in some situations (e.g., my grandfather’s land on which my family has in the past farmed for scores of years, but now only grows trees.

    What has many people (who might be in that exact situation) concerned is the mere hint of the idea that you could effectively lose your property rights for inability to “be part of the community”. What has people (who live in such communities) concerned is the problem of inexperienced, needy refugees arriving at a risk to the pre-existent solid community. These are both reasonable concerns. How to deal with them requires wisdom. And lots of it.

    Property rights are the basis of a free society. If you start chipping away at property rights….then the world changes dramatically. It works both ways. I don’t have a right to demand a bottle of antibiotics from someone because I didn’t prepare well enough myself.

    • PrepperDoc,
      You talk about property rights, and there’s a little historical tidbit that I thought might fit in here.
      Everyone probably knows the phrase, “Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of happiness” from our Declaration of Independence; but, what many do not know, is that the original drafts stated simply, “Life, Liberty, and Property”; but, since there was still a lot of contention over slavery, the phrase was changed, in much the same way that the 3/5’s rule was added for apportionment of the house of representatives.
      So the founders knew well that private property was one of the keys to a free society.

  25. I’ve seen some unusual claims about what is “socialism” in this debate, so I looked it up:

    “a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole”

    I don’t quite get how a suburban family whose home has been burned out, traveling back to land/housing that they personally own in a remote area, wanting to use their own property, causes them to be branded “socialists.”

    In fact, when a “community” (of rural people) begins to declare that THEY have the right to decide who has access to their own land (the “means of production”) then it seems that these people themselves meet the definition of “socialism” no matter how loudly they proclaim a supposed commitment to property rights.

    I don’t have the right to demand your goods.
    You don’t have the right to steal my land.

    Who in their right mind would disagree with those simple points? Yet I have seen those argued against several times here. People are “stunned” that others would believe they have property rights.
    to land they have owned for decades.

    This has been very enlightening. And again, I don’t plan to bug out ANYWHERE. But if you stand between me and my land with a gun in your hand……I don’t think that is a defensible position to take.

    • Jesse Mathewson says:

      If that access is
      1. By a person and group “armed” that we dont know…yes, we will deny passage unless you can offer a benefit. Even if you believe the false notion that somehow pieces of paper entitle you access too the community- you are by definition acting in a socialist manner.
      2. If you are apart of the community and not simply a tourist or rich stubborn person who deigns local communities as beneath him, as you have clearly made a point of being, again, no one will care. Our families safety overrides your perception of entitled rights.

      At no point did I advocate theft of your property, I am simply stating a reality, you are a dr., do I or do I not persuade people regularly to seek out your advice regarding medicine? With very minor exceptions?

      Do me the courtesy of admitting you may in fact be continuing to argue a point that was not ever actually stated? But that you inferred due to a distinct desire to not appear wrong?

      Know your neighbors…GET TO KNOW YOUR NEIGHBORS its simple. I wont steal from you, but if you present a threat and demand your “rights” I guarantee you will not be welcome, regardless your perceived rights or real rights. .. so AGAIN get to know your neighbors.

    • PrepperDoc,

      But if you stand between me and my land with a gun in your hand……I don’t think that is a defensible position to take.

      Actually, I think that would very quickly become a defensible position, as in defend yourself, because I’m taking my land back, LOL.

  26. I guess I would make my stand with Prepper Doc, Penrod, and Ohio Prepper. You folks seem to fit into “My” beliefs, values, and ethics. However, “Where there’s a real will to survive, there’s a way” and “Humans are animals” (quotes from OP and Jessie). Currently, this whole scenario is fiction because it hasn’t happened yet. So, what if?

    What if this “family” trying to get to their legally owned BOL were 12 to 15 members with 5 adult males, 4 of which were veterans of desert combat and the old man, and head of the family, was a 30-year veteran with 3 tours in combat?

    What if, the head of the “family”, being just a little wiser than the 4 members of this arrogant, self-appointed, militant “tribe” on gate guard, spends 3 to 5 minutes trying to reason with them while the other 4 adult males do visual recon and then humbly/almost cowardly the “family” will withdraw back in the direction they came from.

    What if, the family only goes far enough to convince the boys at the gate that they are gone? But, instead, find a reasonably safe place to camp and spend the next 36 hours forming plan A, B, and C. While making improvements, and stockpiling on their BOL, they also hunted and scouted (all this in the pre-SHTF). Then on the 3rd night (when the “tribe” is sure they have run off the “losers”), all 4 gate guards fall down screaming with their left knees blown out (or right shoulders) from suppressed 308s. As many as 6 to 12 “tribal” members will respond, set up a better perimeter security and evacuate the wounded. Everything will seem quiet and about 4 hours later, 2 or more will go down with their left knees blown out. By now the “tribe” is feeling a little chaos and even fear. Security tactics will be completely rewritten and a patrol might even be sent out. If the patrol gets out of sight, they most likely will not return. Now as the arrogance is fading, the feeling of superiority fleeting, fear and even a little panic starting to set in, and no one as yet has been killed although 12 or more of the dominant males are wounded or missing, what do you suppose will happen next?

    Arrogance will not win battles. Size (numbers) do not guarantee superiority. Many weapons with lots and lots of ammo does not guarantee dominance. “No battle plan survives contact with the enemy.”, and since the real world often gets in the way of the best laid plans of mice and men . . .

    PS: The left knee thing may sound familiar to some that remember the news flash (Ruby Ridge was dominating the media at the time). One man caused a “Survivalist Militia” group of over 100 men (and their families I assume) to basically disband and go their separate ways for fear one of them would be next.

    • Jesse Mathewson says:

      The fbi/batf caused ruby ridge, calling us arrogant is your mistake. And sad. I havent called names. Im done with this thread.

      And wont be responding too you for certain

      • Funny, I don’t remember anyone calling Jesse Mathewson arrogant. But if that, and only that, is what you got out of the hypo-thecal, fictional, “what if” scenario, then so be it . . . There is always another view point (or alternate way of seeing things), another side to the coin, and someone a little smarter than given credit for!

      • Im done with this thread.
        And wont be responding too you for certain

        Oh, that’s probably the best/easiest way to get out of a loosing argument.

  27. PrepperDoc says:

    Jesse, I get SO CONFUSED reading your posts. Perhaps you can straighten me out. Here is something you wrote recently, (with my confusion at each point):

    “Jesse Mathewson says:
    February 16, 2017 at 8:13 am
    Stop, when did I say take away anything? Why would I take your property?”
    >> Sounds like he respects property rights

    “Ive been quite clear in that regards. And you keep bringing up the constitution, TEOTWAWKI that particular piece of paper along with all million plus laws written under the guide of it wont matter.”
    >> Sounds like he is a PRAGMATIST, and it isn’t clear at all that he will respect human rights enshrined in our Constitution

    ” What will matter is community and whether or not youve earned your place among them,”
    –Wow — so the COMMUNITY determines my rights? Say it isn’t SO!!

    “I will say again theft is wrong”
    >>Sounds like he’s back to respecting individual property right

    ” just as it would be to assume you have any rights in a community you havent been apart of except as a tourist.”
    >> What is his definition of “tourist”?? I own 85 acres in one rural area where I go only every year or so? Is he saying I have no property rights there???

    “Stop over analyzing it, its simple.”
    >>No, it is terribly confusing. Can’t even figure out your post….

    “Every community will be and is different, and yet, humans by and large being the tribal types we are at our core, will be acceptant of tribe, not of outsiders regardless their supposed and honestly unverifiable paper documents.”
    >> So he’s back to NOT respecting my property rights as proven by Written Deed. I have the deeds all the way back to NINETEEN OH TWO on this particular piece of land…. but he says I don’t have any rights?

    I think it is pretty clear where I might be a bit mystified….

    Straighten me out, my friend.
    The concept of property rights is > 3,000 years old. Where ARE you on this???

    • Jesse Mathewson says:

      You are confusing it.

      Possession is…?

      With no way of verifying who you are, anyone can print up or write up a “deed”.

      We are talking AFTER MAJOR EVENT-

      YOU are ignoring a simple reality, if you are unknown, your claims mean nothing when it is impossible to verify said claims, UNLESS YOU HAVE MADE YOURSELF PART OF THE COMMUNITY THROUGH ACTIONS.

      Money does not trust create nor tribe make. And deeds will be more worthless than the effort to carry them without substantiation.

      My argument remains the same, GET TO KNOW THE NEIGHBORS OR YOU WILL SURELY BE KEPT FROM JOINING.

      On that note. I am done with this thread.

      I believe strongly in property rights, but sir, while you also do, you do not understand the difference in the whys and why nots here.

      Take it how you will. In this area yes, you are the one who has obviously no experience. You are following the Rawles approach, buy your way in…its unrealistic and worse, will get people hurt.

      One last thought. Applied to this /

      When all else fails what does a man have left?

      I was taught ones word, hence my practice over two decades of embracing and forming bonds in areas I do not live currently but may someday need to be.

  28. PrepperDoc says:

    Jesse….here is even MORE confusion — straighten me out, my friend

    “(Jesse)
    If that access is
    1. By a person and group “armed” that we dont know…yes, we will deny passage unless you can offer a benefit. Even if you believe the false notion that somehow pieces of paper entitle you access too the community- you are by definition acting in a socialist manner.”
    >>> WOW!! So having a written DEED to property makes me a SOCIALIST for wanting to access my own property — if YOU don’t conclude I am worthy inyour eyes? Where did you get that as being SOCIALIST. The exact opposite appears to be the case, right? Socialists don’t respect property rights……

    “2. If you are apart of the community and not simply a tourist or rich stubborn person who deigns local communities as beneath him, as you have clearly made a point of being, again, no one will care. Our families safety overrides your perception of entitled rights.”
    >> So is he INSULTING me here, or not? Again, here he is the Socialist, right? He places community over invidividual rights — clearly a socialist position, am I not correct?

    “At no point did I advocate theft of your property,”
    >> Didn’t you JUST do exactly that in the paragraph before? This mode of speaking is foreign to me. Do I own my property or do you get to DECIDE if I own my property?

    ” I am simply stating a reality”
    >> What reality…..that people can take my property by armed force? And are you FOR or AGAINST others taking peoplle”s property by armed force?? Please declare if you are for COMMUNITY RIGHTS or for INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS my friend — one is Socialist the other is Libertarian.

    “Do me the courtesy of admitting you may in fact be continuing to argue a point that was not ever actually stated? But that you inferred due to a distinct desire to not appear wrong?”
    >> Help me out here, my friend— in asking you to explain your diametrically opposite sentences, one right after the other….how am I arguing something that was never stated? WHAT am I arguing and WHAT is it that you never stated?

    “Know your neighbors…GET TO KNOW YOUR NEIGHBORS its simple. I wont steal from you, but if you present a threat and demand your “rights” I guarantee you will not be welcome, regardless your perceived rights or real rights. .. so AGAIN get to know your neighbors.”
    >>YOU won’t steal from me? But your COMMUNITY will determine whether or not I get to go to my property?? How weird is this? Which way is it — community controls the property, or individuals have property rights? You support the first, and claim to observe the 2nd. Impossible, my friend.

    Reply

    • Jesse’s mixed messages are confusing. I still want to know my basic question earlier, will I be denied rights to my own land? I would have my deed in hand…..

      • Terra:

        This is just my opionion (worth every penny you pay for it).

        It is going to depend; I don’t think one person can give you one answer that will be universal.

        In a SHTF or WROL event, things will be in terrible flux. Some people and areas will seem as if nothing is different; either by chance or choice. Other areas will be so chaotic that it will look like cheap fiction at it’s worst.

        I just don’t think there is a simple, universal answer. Sorry.

        • PrepperDoc says:

          JP is correct, but there is more to it.

          Deeds can be verified. They are recorded(copied) into the county record books which exist EXACTLY for the purpose making deeds verifiable. Deeds have seals on them, and many have very complicated and often quite descriptive language. While you could fake one, if a fellow shows up with a deed in hand, and you do NOT have a way to prove that it is a forgery, and you prevent them access to their land…..if the law in that area ever returns, you’ll have to answer for it.

          In smaller counties in some parts, the books are still physical I suspect, whille in my area they are only electronic I once researched a neighbor’s ownings beside my farmland and found he was correct where I was in the error. I wrote the man and apologized.

          The right does not always prevail (obviously) — so having made strong connections in an area is a great idea…..if you can. That would be impossible for me and some of my family’s holdings from over 100 years.

          What I object to is the idea that it is Socialist for me to want to have my own property, and it is “right” for a “community” to “decide” whether I am allowed to go to my land. That’s craziness, and anyone should oppose it whereever it shows up. That’s the way liberty falls.

          My 2 cents worth. I learned a lot from seeing how people on this site deal with “right” and “wrong”……and I am now a wiser person for it….for that I thank those who educated me……in just how people can take away others’ rights…..I will be far, far less trusting of others as a result.

          If you are holding a “bug out location” that is hard for you to maintain weekly involvement with…..this thread is probablly a stark warning to you — there are many people who will deny you access to that propeerty. You might get rid of things that you cannot be certain of even being able to use……and better arrange your alternatives where you are more guaranteed to have REAL RIGHTS.

        • This my exact point. Not that I or anyone in particular would deny someone access to their property, but you need to get to not only be known in the community but also know how they think. I would want to know in advance how the people in a given area act and respect other, before I purchased land there. When I moved here, I rented for 18 months while I got a good lay of the land and knew exactly where I wanted to buy. I personally would not plan on bugging out to an area that I knew opposed anyone coming in. Some areas of the country would welcome you with open arms, while others may not allow you access to your land period, and there are plenty of places like that in this country. People are different that way. From my community stand point, you would not be kept from going to your land (unless you were a clear threat to the safety of the community), but you may not actually be part of the community. It depends on you and what you bring to the table for skills. As I have stated before, a lot of people coming out of the cities are planning on showing up empty handed to an empty piece of land and surviving. Others have stated on these sites that they don’t need to prepare, as they will just take what they need from others by force, and I fear there will be a lot that feel that way if something really bad happens. Hopefully this discussion is all for naught and nothing bad enough to turn us all into animals happens.

      • Terra,
        While we’ve traveled a very circuitous route to get here, I think the answer in general is the same. If you have spent the time to get to know at least the neighboring landowners around your property, assuming some of them are locals, then you have persons who are trusted by the local community to vouch for you. Otherwise, your piece of paper may not mean much, since in a post SHTF WROL scenario, might may indeed make right. Best to make sure at least some of the locals know who you are and then you may not even need that piece of paper. As always YMMV.

        • Thank you Ohio Prepper. I always enjoy your post and your wise wisdom.

          • Jesse Mathewson says:

            OP says it bettet thsn I could apologies for the confusion.

          • @OhioPrepper–You said:
            “Only after KDK & PL C said something.
            I’m getting a bad rep here and I’m trying to restrain myself.”

            Didn’t mean to embarrass you. I called you out, but it was done with admiration.

  29. PrepperDoc says:

    For the record: I come from sharecroppers. The land I own there has been in my family for 75 years.

    It is MY LAND. Whether I live there now or not.

    Anyone trying to take my land by force….well, at some point they will get what they deserve.

    • Curley Bull says:

      My father was a sharecropper also.

      It is MY LAND. Whether I live there now or not.
      Anyone trying to take my land by force….well, at some point they will get what they deserve.

      AMEN!!

      I guess you could say I know the folks at the BOL, I’m kin to some of them.

    • PrepperDoc,
      In that case you may well have an in at the place. If it used to belong to old man smithy who was your grandfather, you being his grandson with firearms and doctoring skills may well fit the bill to be accepted. It still might be a good idea to visit the place once in a while and introduce yourself around the area.

  30. Chuck Findlay says:

    After reading all that junk, I don’t want to read anyone calling me childish for posting my views with any kind of conviction. My post are mild in comparison….

  31. While I agree with a lot of what is stated here, the RULE OF LAW in a major catastrophe will probably be non existent. I agree if it is YOUR LAND, it is YOUR LAND. BUT, the TAKERS in our society as it stands right now, will think it belongs to whoever can HOLD IT. While I am not proposing anything, there are those among us who will be willing to do whatever they deem necessary to survive also. If you make your BOL & 50-60 people are living on it, what do you do? If an EMP hits us, there will be NO LAW ENFORCEMENT, other than what we can enforce. Good luck!

    • KDK: You said
      “there are those among us who will be willing to do whatever they deem necessary to survive also”

      Isn’t that stealing?

      • Terra,

        Isn’t that stealing?

        Actually, depending on the what, the why, and the where, it could just be suicide.

      • Call it what you like & I am not saying it would be me. My favorite post apocalyptic movie the Road Warrior & in it the CRAZIES were the rulers of most of what was left. They were willing to do whatever it took to live. If that means killing, stealing, torturing they didn’t care. Those will be the ones I am referring to.

  32. bout2vomit says:

    @Terra
    I guess the one lesson we can all learn is this : This forum is a microcosm of society at large, with different morals ,values and levels of integrity. We cannot impose our values on others and cannot allow others to impose their wills on us. If you own land and live away from it, come prepared to secure it and have the necessary tools and manpower to do so. People do what people do, and we cant fault people, we can only fault ourselves for not acting upon the information we glean from the actions of others. If nothing else this conversation has unveiled many character traits I dont set horses with.
    p.s. Its the character we exhibit when things are at their worst that exposes our true nature. I’m taking the high road and trusting in the Lord.

    • bout2vomit — Thank you for your thought provoking response to me. I agree with you and I am so glad we had this exchange. I never realized this would even be an issue. My eyes are open and I will now know that these things may happen.

  33. bout2vomit says:

    @Terra
    I guess the one lesson we can all learn is this : This forum is a microcosm of society at large, with different morals ,values and levels of integrity. We cannot impose our values on others and cannot allow others to impose their wills on us. If you own land and live away from it, come prepared to secure it and have the necessary tools and manpower to do so. People do what people do, and we cant fault people, we can only fault ourselves for not acting upon the information we glean from the actions of others. If nothing else this conversation has unveiled many character traits I don’t set horses with. (agree with)
    p.s. Its the character we exhibit when things are at their worst that exposes our true nature and morals. I’m taking the high road and trusting in the Lord.

  34. Got a little testy here what with the grammar & spelling police. Sometimes people try to state what they are thinking but can’t get their thoughts across on paper. Most of what people are saying is we don’t know what will happen or what we will do in certain situations except protect what is ours. I don’t get how someone states what they think MIGHT happen can get twisted into THATS WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO. Once again, GOOD LUCK!

  35. Agree about Mossberg 500/590 or Remington 870. They are popular and it will be easy to find ammo or even spare parts.

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