Vegans surviving, easier or harder?



This guest post is by Susan B

I believe it will be harder for them.

One reason is the body stops producing stomach acids and enzymes required for the digestion of meat after many years of eating a meal free diet, they will throw up the meat when they try eating it, the body has adapted to easier to break down food and does not produce normal acids any longer; should they need to change their diet for survival their bodies will not adapt and most likely they will most likely be some of the first to die off because of this life style.

The long time lack of things like B-12 being very low will contribute to early weakness and starvation very quickly. A good thing is vegans will pose little threat to anyone as they will be dying off with the all the diabetic’s and others with weak bodies.

The Israelites were instructed by God to eat of the fatted calf before going to war.

A way to weaken a people is to promote a vegan diet. It has worked well here in the US. It takes some a few years to really get drained and then they think because they can no longer digest meat it is because the meat is bad for them rather than their bodies have been damaged from the diet.

I learned the hard way in my youth about the vegan diet, I was one for a year and the damage it did took several years to repair. I’m a protein type; my copper levels became really high and burned out my thyroid, to this day I cannot get it to function well.

N European blood lines have the worst time of it with a vegan diet because most are protein types. I do well on a primal or paleo diet like my ancestors.

Many people have such a high carb diet that they lose the ability to digest meat proteins so they naturally start cutting back on them and increase the carbs, you hear it all the time people saying they no longer eat red meat, it’s because they can’t and they’re to willfully ignorant to know why let alone the difference between grass-fed, antibiotic and hormone free and the grain fed crap anyway.

I believe this lack of ability to eat many different foods will make vegans extremely vulnerable when SHTF. I believe it makes sense to have a varied diet and stick closer to a hunter gathers style of diet because it will aid one in survival. Those who chose a vegan diet in the hard coming times will have a great deal more difficulty in my personal opinion. I would love to hear what ya’all think about special diets relating to survival.

Comments

  1. Spook45 says:

    Definately harder, the fact is that in true survival situations the compatition for food is going to be heavy and vegetarians etc are basicly cutting thier oppertunitys to eat by a substantial margin by only eating vegies. There will be lots of chances to eat passed over because they wont eat a squerrel or a rabbit or a deer or even a rat or feild mouse under extremes. The shear number of food opertunities goes down and thus thier chances of scurvy, sickness and starvation go up. Im a very picky eater, I only eat what I want cooked the way I want it; this is a luxury of situation. get to work regularly, garner a regular paycheck and have the ability to shop as normal. Degridation of situation may dictate that all f those luxerys go away and then you had better eat what you can eat when you can eat it or you may find yourself starving to death.

  2. A vegan diet is actually very difficult to follow and maintain good nutrition, even with the wide food availability many people have now. The potential for iron deficiency and other nutritional problems needs to be monitored very carefully. If food choices get more limited, it is easier to maintain healthy nutrition as an omnivore. Obviously, if there is almost no animal products available, vegans would probably have important knowledge about how to do the best that you can nutritionally given these are not available. Might not be a bad idea to have a book on maintaining nutrition using a vegan diet to understand how to make the best of it under such circumstances.

  3. I’m on the fence on this one. One the one hand, humans are omnivores, so we can freely mix and match what’s available to eat. Strict vegans (I know of one person who fits that description) would have some troubles at first, because most of them are very dependent on routine supply. Some garden, true, but those tend to be seasonal affairs with low yields, mainly for the pleasure of being able to have it at its freshest. Plants are easier to collect, as they don’t try to fight back or run away, but one would need to collect more to offset the fact they are poorer foods.
    In an extreme situation, strict carnivores would face intense competition from the hordes fleeing the cities, because regardless of their (the hordes) success at taking down game, they’d more likely spook the rest and make it harder to acquire. Foraging for vegetable matter may mean the difference. This is presupposing you don’t have proper supplies or your cache was compromised somehow.

    My buddy, who shall remain nameless, isn’t militant about his choice. He’s healthy, well-adjusted, and frankly a much better shot than I am (we are members of the same gun club). His garden is what I described before, more of a hobby patch to liven up his and his GF’s menu than anything else. He’s also very educated and while he doesn’t prep, at least in the sense here, they do keep an awful lot of canned goods in their basement (hmmmm….).

    Anyway, the point I was making is that vegans wouldn’t necessarily be at that much of a disadvantage in a SHTF situation. In some ways, they may have a slight advantage at times. Skillful foraging for the “right” foods won’t have that much of an affect on their systems. Anyway, just my two cents (as I dig into a sausage & eggs breakfast:-))

    • You bring to mind some questions about vegans foraging for the ‘right foods’, Rick, even ‘skillful foraging’.
      I know only two vegans and their diets are heavy on protein vegetables and fruits/nuts, eggs (one doesn’t do eggs, either), and dairy products. In my neck of the woods, the foods they buy are imported eight months of the year, especially fresh veggies. All the nuts they eat are imported and spendy, though some nuts such as Philberts/Hazelnuts grow wild here, they’d be hard-pressed to find enough to supplement the meat in their diet.
      In the end, I really think such people are going to be at a distinct disadvantage because of J-I-T food delivery. And if they can’t get the nuts and dairy they rely on, and are unable to digest meat- though I’ve never heard of this phenomenon- they’re going to be on starvation diet rather quickly.
      Your point of the horde driving meat deeper into the wild is valid, for sure. Maybe that’ll be beneficial for those who bug out to the outback.

    • Rick,
      It seems to me that foraging and gardening alone for your own calories takes quite a lot of work per day, and unless you live in a year round temperate climate you’re going to have trouble stocking up enough calories (nutritious or otherwise) to get you through the winter. My choice is to enlist other foragers who work for me at no real cost, and can additionally thrive on foods that I cannot digest. Multiple varieties of chickens or other fowl, goats, and bees are a very easy starting point. Just this small number of helpers can provide meat, milk, eggs, honey, and building/clothing materials. Throw in a pig or small cow and you increase the yield by orders of magnitude. While many cultures have a tendency to be vegetarian and live mostly on grains and in season vegetables, most cultures that have meat sources readily available from quadrupeds to fish, generally use them to supplement their diets. I don’t know the actual history of veganism, but leaving nutrition sources like milk, eggs, and honey out of your diet, seems to me to be more of a new age religious choice, than a rational or healthy one.

  4. axelsteve says:

    They will also be in a disadvantage if there is only mre or other type of food avaible.There are wild turkeys in my area and they will be a easy kill since they are all over the place .A 22 shot in the head and there is allot of food.Vegans will have it rough.

  5. JP in MT says:

    Anytime you limit your options, things get harder.

  6. Susan B,

    What you wrote about vegans and meat is true. Last November I was at a military reunion and one of my friends made an off hand remark that one of his DIL’s cannot eat meat as she was raised as a strict vegan.
    The table conversation turned to this problem ( we were at a rib joint haha) and was most enlightening. Trying to eat meat if you have never consumed any in your life can be life threatening.

    My wife says I am like a grizzly bear in the garbage dump, if it moves slower than me, I will probably eat it.

    • and if it runs faster than me, I shoot it

    • Encourager says:

      So, can you train your body to accept meat? Say, if you each just a few bites a day for a few weeks and then increase that slowly so you can consume 3oz in a few months time? Or is there no way to get your body to produce those enzymes, ever? Never heard of this before. Have a cousin who is about 8 years younger than me; he is a vegan, having stepped down from a vegetarian. He looks 10 years older than me, stick thin, poor skin tone, etc. Not what I would call a good lifestyle choice. At one point, when he was a vegetarian, he ate dairy products and eggs. Looked a heck of a lot better.
      So, if you are a vegetarian and consume dairy and eggs, does your gut produce these enzymes? Or are we talking only about red meat?

  7. I tend to agree with Spook. In a Survival Situation you will eat whatever you are fortunate to obtain. When your prep supplies diminish is when the shtf. Then a new game starts up and that is called SURVIVAL.
    I too am a picky eater and very selective at the present time, however if the situation arrives when a rat is all I have; then bring on the rat.

  8. You may be doing very well on the primal or paleo diet. My wife and I are also doing something pretty similar. However, vegans can eat meat. A simple check into google would find a number of articles on this.

    http://www.chow.com/food-news/54220/do-vegetarians-lose-the-ability-to-digest-meat/

    On a personal level, I dated a vegetarian for quite some time. She was strict, for years. Then one day, I took her to an Afghan kebab house and gushed over how great the chicken and lamb tasted (while she was “enjoying” the eggplant platter. So persuasive was I in my noises that she tried it, and then ended up eating half my meat. We got another plate. No stomach upsets, problems, etc. Now perhaps she did not get the full nutrients due to poor digestion (I was not in the habit of analyzing her stool at the time), but based on personal experience, reports of diet experts, etc., vegans can certainly eat meat.

    Food has become extremely political. Remember that it has the next time some vegetarian recommends a coffee enema, or some meat-eater tells you to avoid beans. Survival eating will involve eating stuff you are not familiar with, locally grown, and without turning your nose up at any protein/calories/nutrients that come your way.

  9. I have to agree it would make it much harder. Removing a huge amount of sources of protein and fats can’t be a plus.

  10. On a somewhat related note, I have started to move my family to a primal/paleo way of eating for greater health. However, how do you prep for such a lifestyle since a lot of the foods are not easy to store? I have found local sources for meat and I garden for veggies; I also hope to learn more about hunting/trapping. But do you have a good system for storing food long term since you can’t make use of wheat and rice and such?

    • One word, Karyn: Canning. Can the veggies. Rice, wheat and grains can be stored dry in light/air tight containers with a bit of O2 remover such as dry ice chips put in before sealing. (Hope I read your question properly.)
      MD has quite a bit of information on storing long-term.
      As for hunting, a few words on that: forget you own deodorants and sprays, get some scent free Ivory soap to bathe in; don’t wash hunting clothing in scented or O2 Britener soaps (animals can see IR spectrum in clothing), and store them outside the house for a couple weeks before going hunting. To deodorize both yourself and clothes, use real genuine woodsmoke: it’s all over the place during most hunting seasons.
      Trapping is going to be an eye-opener for you as well where scent is concerned. Whenever working with traps, get rid of your scent first, then wear rubber gloves when handling them, rubber boots when setting them. And you’re still going to leave scent- meaning you’ve got to be more than cautious of how you smell.

  11. I don’t know where to put this comment, but after reading the above reply, I wonder if the texting craze that is happening now has a very negative downside of people no longer knowing how to write in the correct manner of the English language. Just a wild and scary note! :)

    • LOL, TZ- I had a difficult time reading it as well, editing as I went along. It’s really interesting to note how people write, which is quite possibly how they speak as well. (I love droppin’ the g’s on words because it’s play for me, plus a few other werd games that take an ear to catch.)

      • axelsteve says:

        I have a chineese customer at work.Funny thing about him is he does not speak in plurals.He once said that he needed sparkplug so I brought him a sparkplug for the application. Well he needed the other 5 sparkplugs also but he just said that he needed sparkplug.My wife was kinda a vegatarian when we dating.She used to wrap meat for a butcher shop and got tired of being around it.She did not start eating beef untill she got pregnant.My friends cousin was a vegatarian but he was also a smoker.I figured what the hell is that about? I would rather be a meat eater then a smoker. Some people.

  12. Aye that ,
    In a long term SHTF situation , your attitude had better be very flexible because your choices will now be very limited . I dont feel sorry for anybody that has a mamsy pamsy fussy diet , they will just have to get real and eat whats available . The people I do feel sorry for are those with legitimate medical conditions like diabetics . Its going to be difficult for them , and they didnt ask to have diabetes ……………… the effeminate granola eaters will just have to get over it .

  13. Kelekona says:

    Interesting point on the varied diet. I was thinking that having a picky diet is not something you should insist on once SHTF, but not having a choice because of self-inflicted digestive problems is a really heavy issue.

    You mentioned being primal / paleo, I hope you are following a 90% philosophy. Just imagine a winter of slim hunting and coming across a BOL where the owner didn’t manage to get to it… judging by the people here, you might find canned goods, perhaps some peanut butter, spam and jerky; but also a lot of beans, rice, and wheat. Other than jerky and canning, what besides cabbages, apples, and nuts can you store for lean hunting over the winter?

    I recognize that I myself am screwed. My preservative allergy is not self-inflicted; I lived with it until I turned 30 and started cooking everything from scratch before I noticed. The types of foods that both store and cook easily, the types that I’ll probably have to rely on until the dust settles and schizo-1870 settles in, they’ll probably turn me back into a retard.

    • Good news is that if you look at how folks preserved things in the 1800s and before , its much more ” wholesome ” in the fact that chemicals didnt exist . They used a lot of lard and salt as well as other methods . Perhaps it wasn’t as efficient as it is today , but it was probably healthier than the chemical stew .

  14. I almost thought this article was serious until I saw an obscure religious reference. My favorite part is how you say that when there is no more vegetables that the meat-eaters will be best able to survive. Here’s what you are saying here: when food becomes very scarce, animals which use plenty of food and water to grow are more efficient than ingesting that food and water directly.
    Does this make sense to you? Sacrificing a litre of water and a pound of edible food to raise a quarter pound of animal (not edible animal, just animal). I am using hypothetical numbers there, but it basically applies to every animal. It takes more resources to raise an animal than it takes to raise crops (you can’t get something from nothing).

    So, when “SHTF”, I guess everybody is equally doomed. If all the animals die off from some disease or bacteria, those who are well adjusted to consuming plant materials will be the real winners. And if all the plants die off, then all the animals (including humans) die off as well.

    • robert in mid michigan says:

      i get what you are trying to say but in that it taskes more food to raise an animal than the animal will provide. this is true of any animal as you said thier is no free lunch. however if you feed a chicken only wheat and insects you get eggs and meat from said animal that can provide you with vitamins and minerals not to mention fat that you cannot get from the feed. same with sprouting you need a well balanced diet to survive and thrive.

      i dont know if what you are saying about vegans and being able to digest meat is fact, fiction (not jinx article writer) what have you but i have heard that vegans have a problem with stomack pain and such when they eat meat. the fact of the matter is if you exclude certain foods from your diet you also make it so that you have to pass up on what may be the only meal for the day.

    • True , but again depends on the situation , A big volcano going off and creating a nuclear winter will kill off both plant and animal as you said , But an economic collaps combined with governmental collaps would not affect existing natural resources other than over hunting and availability . People would have to go back to being farmers . There are several food animals that would be raised because they are efficient to do so in limited space . It was no accident that the Spanish chose Pigs and Chickens as a steady meat supply when they colonized all the islands in the Caribbean . Small space & heavy yield . Cattle are less efficient and take much more space to raise . Same reason goats were popular in Mediterranean cultures .

    • Jinx,
      What you’re saying is only true if the plan is to use feed grains like corn and wheat to fatten your livestock. I can turn goats, pigs, and chickens loose into a fenced forested area and they will eat lots of things that I cannot, and provide me with at least eggs and meat. The meat will perhaps be a little leaner and gamey tasting, but nothing has been wasted in producing it, unless your plan was to eat grass, bark, twigs, and other browse material yourself, and have figured out how to digest it.

  15. Firstly, I’d have liked for some sources to be cited on the opinions you are bringing forth on stomach acids, enzymes and various other things. I am not up for looking into the information but I think your not giving the human body enough credit, I believe it could readily process meat even if these enzymes were supposedly lost

    The reason in my opinion why allot of people suffer on vegan and vegetarian diets is cause of bad nutrition as a couple of vitamins and minerals are not attainable through non animal sources such as vitamin K2 and such and their protein intake is too low and various other things, basically, they’ve removed what use to provide them a huge amount of nutrition and just increased on the rest of the horribly nutritional deficient food they normally eat.

    Lastly, you’ve assumed that in a survival situation a person will not switch to a “whatever is available” diet when the shit hits the fan and they are struggling to feed themselves. No doubt there are people that could be dedicated enough to their diet to go through starvation for it, I doubt that is a majority or even a point of a percentage of the total non meat eaters. I believe they may experience a very slight higher difficulty over other diet groups, which could be the same as can be attributed to people with long hair vs people with short hair.

    • Your right about that , it also depends on how strong a survival instinct and will to live a person has ………….. some people have a low instinct , those are the type of people that choose suicide as a viable alternative to life’s difficulties and hardships . They dont have the metal it takes to ride out or overcome adversity . Thats just how they are built and in a crisis must be lead through it by those that do .

      • axelsteve says:

        another things about the weed eaters there is many different ideas on how it should be done.Bill pearl was a mr universe who ate fish and poultry and I think dairy but no red meat and he considdered himself a vegatarian. and I radio guy in Denver named ken Hamblin (or something like that) eats only game meat and wild fish.He is a black man and he would say that people would try to deblack him since he would not eat fried food and is a conservative.

        • If I had to choose a fussy diet to live by it would probably be Kosher , you can still eat most things …….just not pork , so naw on that as well ;)

  16. j.r. guerra in s. tx. says:

    Then again, a knowledgable vegan who knows a lot of native vegetation sources and how to prepare would be good to know. Plants don’t run away so gathering them takes much less energy (which is good because they rarely provide energy, especially when it gets cold.) And they are seasonal so you can gather at peak times.

    I do agree with above – NO MEAT is definitely removing some options.

  17. T in TX says:

    Thank you for this information, it is very helpful. I appreciate what Spook45 said about learning to eat what you can but, how do you overcome being a picky eater? I keep hearing that when a person gets hungry enough they will eat anything. I was in that situation once as a child and ended up fainting from hunger because I could not eat what was available. I am trying to make changes but it’s not as easy as you think.

    • You get over being a picky eater by eating what you don’t like to eat. It doesn’t have to be the whole meal, just small portions.
      The adage of eating or going hungry really will work if all you have to eat is what you don’t like. Remove the option of not eating for real, not just one missed meal, and the truth will hit home hard. The time you tried that as a child wasn’t a real test: you knew there was going to be other food later. Try it without that option.
      And remind yourself one thing about anything you can eat: It makes a turd, so it must be good.

      • Any one who stands by “i won’t eat THAT” has not been very hungry very long. Be truly poor, living in a car. Someone offers a meal you don’t like, you eat it and it becomes ambrosia.
        Grow up, eat what’s offered or available. Allergies excepted, so don’t go ranting. Some foods don’t agree with me, but I eat if I must.
        Enjoy your blessings. Eat meat or not, grains or not. When the time comes…… Starve or not. I won’t starve by choice.

    • Papa Squirrel says:

      T, I was always and still am a picky eater, but I’ve gotten better. I have always loathed almost every vegetable (except the starches – corn, rice, and potatoes). I never even liked beans. Makes storing up a bunch of rice and beans and planting a survival garden sorta worthless. So, I started just trying to eat things. I would put 5 green beans on a plate and force myself to eat them. After a while I would put a spoonful. Now I’ve been known to even get seconds. With black beans I started mixing a few in with my tacos or nachos just to get used to the texture. Now I automatically cook these in many dishes to extend meat dishes. I’ve even gotten to where I can eat broccoli and a few other “hard core” vegetables fairly easily. Still not what I would choose to eat, but I can eat them, so now my buckets o’ beans and garden aren’t useless, especially when more tasty options aren’t available.

  18. Very good article and you hit the nail on the head. Unless you live in a tropical area, getting everything you need in nutrients is next to impossible. The human body is made to be omnivorous.

    I wrote an article on my blog about how being a vegetarian means you’re likely to die and promoted it on the vegetarian sub forum of reddit.com. The veg heads there reacted as I expected them to: You’re stupid you’re wrong! If the animals can eat vegetables in the woods than I can too and survive!

    Natural selection at its finest I say. Let the weak weed themselves out and let the prepared flourish.

    • Kelekona says:

      Mike, it’s a little funny to use the “animals can do it” argument.

      I forget what mushroom it is, but it causes liver damage in humans while deer can eat it just fine. (I heard somewhere that it’s a common problem in mushroom cases.) Deer also will eat stranded fish if they find one.

      Part of a chimp’s balanced diet is a good amount of termites and ticks, and it seems that they aren’t above eating baboon meat. If there were such a thing as sasquatch, and if he were part of the ape family, I imagine that he’d share his ecological niche with racoons.

  19. I could not agree with this article more. My wife is East Indian and her mother used to try and make her children be vegetarian. From what I hear it was a nasty diet and there was quite a few days off school when the flue was going round. The mother I speak of is in exactly the mentality and physicality you speak of. She cannot eat meat and the smell of it makes her gag as if it were the rum that gave her that never-forget hangover.

    All in all the family is literally one of the weakest I have ever known. They have a glut of health issues. Depression, diabetes (a lot of diabetes), bad teeth, strange skin infections, weakness, stupidity and cancer ( a lot of cancer).

    Many in the family suffer from bad depression. They have all the things in the world and are not hurting for a dollar yet none of them could match me, my kid’s and my wife’s enthusiasm even when we were basically homeless a few months ago.

    If diabetes doesn’t kill them cancer will. The majority of the East Indian folk I have met in my wife’s family do not take their medication properly. There is this mentality of tough-guy or pity-me girl going on. They usually take it once it has become an issue and requires, yet again, hospitalization. I’ve known black folk to do this as well with diabetes medication. They seem to think that if they eat better today it will change that their bodies need those injections or pills. I don’t get it.

    The incidence of cancer in the East Indian family I speak of is sad. Many vegans will boast that they will not die and nasty cancer death like us unenlightened. It was a major point for me back home when talking to vegans about proper nutrition that I could not argue as I just didn’t know. BUT vegans actually do have a higher rate of cancers, at least in the family I speak of (a pool of about 300 people). I was shocked to find this out.

    The bad teeth, stupidity and skin infections are merely from poor hygiene that seems to have followed a lot of them from their homes in India. I thought that because they were successful business folk and many had PhDs that this changed the mentality they had over there. No, it does not a lot of times and in my case and families practices I would never eat at any of their homes. I actually get sick if I do. My wife and kid too.

    Weakness is an unknown thing to vegans. They actually think they are fine and in good shape. The youth have a haughty ego and think there is nothing like them in the dojo or on the field. When they leave private school ( a school full of just Indian kids ) and hit university they seldom continue with the sports for a reason. Skinniness and being very, very slim for the ladies is looked upon as beauty and a man being handsome relies on him looking absolutely harmless. I will never forget helping my In-law make his garden. He couldn’t believe I tilled the soil with a shovel and pick in one day. He usually rented a tiller from Home Depot and did it throughout the week. He kept telling me his zucchini would be small this year because there was no way I could have done it right. He was wrong.

    Eat your meat folks. You have sharp teeth and cravings for good reason.

  20. I am not a vegan and I don’t play one on television but I am married to one so I certainly have a perspective.
    The vegetarians and vegans that I have met through my wife including my wife are some of the most fit and healthy people I know.
    The beans, corn, rice and grains that we store are already part of their diet. The produce we purchase and the garden we will eat from and the variety of fruits and veggies that they are already consuming I believe puts them way ahead of the game. Some may see “veganism” as a source of weakness but I see the discipline and sacrifice and effort that it takes.

    In many cultures meat is a luxury and the people scratch out a living mostly by consuming fruits, veggies, grains etc.
    So I certainly would not count out vegans. Also many ailment are not the product of a lack of meat but a lack of the nutrients found in fruits, veggies, etc..
    Sailors of old were cured of scurvy with citrus fruit I believe (hence “Limeys). Vegans don’t need Viagra and most are not affected by many ailment such as gout etc.

    And I bet I know what you’re thinking, what about “protein”? It is a myth that you need meat to get protein.
    There are countless example in nature of critters that eat almost 100% plant base diet and they are huge masses of protein, (i.e. elephant, giraffes, hippos, rhinos, elk, moose, apes etc.)

    In a collapse I would rather be surrounded by individuals who have made difficult changes in their lives (past actions show more likely future actions) and are not addicted to any number of no longer plentiful, alcohol, tobacco, caffeine, etc. (just think how useless a large segment of folks will be when they no longer have daily access to their favorite cuts).

    If what we have stored gets overly depleting and the garden is not yielding and meat sources are available a vegan can reintroduce meat into their diet.

    If it all comes down to us living under a tree or a rock only eating what crawls along than I believe very very few of us will shine.

    Thanks

    • (Tongue planted firmly in cheek)
      I wonder how many tons of grass an elephant has to eat every day to make all that protein?
      Also, I think hippos and apes are omnivores.

      • Looks like an 8 ton elephant eats about 700 lbs per day in the wild. I don’t weigh quite that much so maybe 7-8 lbs of produce per day.

  21. texanadian says:

    As an omnivor myself, I find eating herbivores a delightful pastime. I guess if the shtf, a two legged herbivore will do just as well as a four legged one… and it beats eating bugs. :-)

  22. Huckleberry says:

    Why does it matter? Better yet, what’s the point of this post? If there are any vegans reading this, I would not expect this to sway anyone to become a meat-eater. There aren’t even any suggestions for those that may be swayed, and there are so many holes in the arguments made in this post that I honestly don’t know where to start. This is nothing short of conjecture fueled by one person’s bad experience with a vegan diet. And we have no idea what the circumstances were or how successful she was in creating a healthy vegan diet. Depending on her stage of “youth,” there’s a good chance it wasn’t too well thought out. It’s no different than someone giving some testimonial about the presence of firearms creating a devastating moment in their life, and then using that to say that guns aren’t healthy, everyone would be safer to live without them (as the testimonial giver states they do), and claim that their ancestors experienced no violence whatsoever before the existence of guns and that everyone that owns a gun is too willfully ignorant of their deep-seated desire to kill people. I don’t see how this adds any value to the discussion of prepping or survival.

    I’m a meat-eating American and I don’t approve of this post.

    • Bam Bam says:

      Huckleberry,

      +1

      I actually think it would be interesting to research what a healthy vegan diet would include–that would put us ahead of the game post collapse when meat will likely be scarce. We all know that beans and rice form a complete protein. What other vegetarian sources form a complete protein?

      • hollyhouse says:

        Quinoa! It’s got complete proteins and is about as easy to grow as a tomato plant. I just added it to the garden this year, so we’ll see how it goes. You can cook it like rice, grind it for flour, make it into grits, it’s a true super grain.

    • Judy, another one says:

      My thoughts exactly!

      Very none productive, us vs. them mentality. How does this help me feed and care for my family?

      Shaking my head and wondering off muttering to myself.

  23. Is this The Onion or do you really believe the things that you are writing?

    Besides the fact that vegetarians live longer, healthier lives, I don’t think I would think for a minute before eating a rabbit or deer if I were in a life or death survival situation.

    Luckily, we don’t have to make that choice. We have lots of nutritious vegetarian food rich in protein and B-12 and it doesn’t cause colon cancer or heart disease like red meat.

    • Vegetarians do not live longer, healthier lives. Here is an excerpt from an article supporting what I was discussing above regarding my wife’s East Indian side of the family. Vegetarians are healthy (like all of us before the ago of 40) but then their health massively declines as toxins build. Have a read…

      “A fascinating paper recently published in the journal Mechanisms of Aging and Development presents an entirely new theory to explain why vegetarians do not live longer.41 It turns out that those who avoid eating beef suffer a deficiency of a nutrient (carnosine) that is critical to preventing lethal glycation reactions in the body.

      For the benefit of new members, glycation can be defined as the toxic binding of glucose to the body’s proteins. Glycation alters the body’s proteins and renders them non-functional. While wrinkled skin is the first outward appearance of glycation, most degenerative diseases are affected in one way or another by pathological glycation reactions.

      Diabetics suffer from accelerated glycation that contributes to the secondary diseases that result in premature death.42,43 For instance, glycation’s destructive effect on the arterial system results in a loss of elasticity, hypertension, and atherosclerosis.44-47 Glycation is involved in disorders as diverse as cataract, cancer, and Alzheimer’s disease.48-57

      Unless aggressive steps are taken, many aging adults will suffer the devastating effects of glycation to proteins throughout their bodies. This fact was established recently when it was shown that even healthy people with slightly elevated glycation levels are at higher risk for heart attack.

      Vegetarians have higher levels of advanced glycation end products (AGEs) in their blood compared to those who eat meat.58,59 This is because an exclusively vegetarian diet would lack carnosine, nature’s most potent anti-glycating agent.

      For vegetarians who fastidiously adhere to a diet devoid of meat, their “Achilles’ heel” may be lack of carnosine. This was confirmed in a paper published in October 2005 titled, “Glycation, ageing and carnosine: Are carnivorous diets beneficial?”41″

      • To add to the issue vegetarians will have a much harder time at the end of days. The OP was actually correct in the assertion for this reason.

        “The reason carnosine disappears so quickly from the blood is the presence of an enzyme (carnosinase) that naturally degrades carnosine in the body. This new study on carnosine blood levels confirms what Life Extension published five years ago. Back in 2000, we advised members that at least 1000 mg a day of carnosine is needed to overwhelm the carnosinase enzyme and protect against toxic glycation reactions.61,62

        Commercial supplement companies are still selling 50-mg carnosine capsules and claiming that this low dose is effective. Based on this recent study showing that the body degrades 248 mg of carnosine within 5.5 hours, consumers who take these 50-mg carnosine capsules are obtaining virtually no benefit. ”

        The above is an example of how vegatarians can avoid dramatic ageing and inflammation of diseases once over the hurdle. Pills… not really around after the initial collapse methinks….

      • Bam Bam says:

        Buuurr,

        The study you cite does not support the claim that eating a vegetarian diet leads to premature death. What this study and others like it show is that people who suffer prolonged deficiencies in B-12 (such as those who eat an imbalanced vegan or vegetarian) do not live longer than those who eat a more well balanced.

        The only claim that can be advanced given the research cited is that people who eat a balanced diet (vegetarian, vegan or whatnot) tend to live longer, all other things being equal. Or, more simply, people who eat a balanced diet tend to be healthier.

        • Absolutely correct, Bam Bam. It does however completely dash the ‘I am vegan and super healthy’ claim. I have met and lived with a lot of vegans (my wife being a former vegan (Hindu family) who already has surpassed her diabetes ‘get-by’ date without any sign of it coming. Everyone in her family has it. Dad, Mom, Brother, aunts, uncles, all of them. Just the younger-than-30′s don’t. Take from it what you will but I can assure you that they (vegans) are anything but the picture of health.

          I am, as in my original comments further up the thread, merely pointing out that the ‘not eating meat is good’ thing is a fallacy. A good, healthy, balanced and meaningful life is the key to a long one. Nothing more. There is no ‘way’ or ‘secret’, special thing to do. Balance in all things.

          • Bam Bam says:

            Buuurr,

            Okay, I see what you are saying. I agree–it’s all about balance.

  24. Panu Horsmalahti says:

    “The long time lack of things like B-12 being very low will contribute to early weakness and starvation very quickly.”

    Actually, B12 deficiency doesn’t happen that quickly, since the body can store quite a lot of it.

    “A good thing is vegans will pose little threat to anyone as they will be dying off with the all the diabetic’s and others with weak bodies.”

    That claim is not supported by scientific research. There’s plenty of people living on a plant-based diet without any B12 supplementation. They don’t “die” and are actually healthy. Their B12-vitamin levels are lower than recommended, but your claim is that they would “die quickly”.

    “The Israelites were instructed by God to eat of the fatted calf before going to war.”

    Religion is not a rational argument for survivalism. If it were, I could cite some vegan religions, but that would be silly.

    “A way to weaken a people is to promote a vegan diet.”

    A vegan diet is healthier than the American diet, which is causing a lot of obesity and heart disease.

    “N European blood lines have the worst time of it with a vegan diet because most are protein types.”

    This is not supported by scientific research. Besides, what the hell is a prtein type? Protein intake has multiplied in the last 100 years in the Western countries. It didn’t use to be that every meal included meat. The diet in Western nations has undergone extreme changes in the last 100 years.

    And if you look how healthy Western people are nowadays, it’s anything but healthy.

    Evan: “The reason in my opinion why allot of people suffer on vegan and vegetarian diets is cause of bad nutrition as a couple of vitamins and minerals are not attainable through non animal sources such as vitamin K2 and such and their protein intake is too low and various other things, ”

    Vitamin K is found in plenty of plants, and is converted into K2 by the body (specifically gut flora). The only vitamin not found in plants is B12 vitamin. The gut flora produces B12 too, although not enough to maintain recommended levels.

    Protein intake is adequate in a healthy vegetarian diet.

    As for survivalism, the human diet is purpoted to have been mostly a vegetarian one in the past:

    “Another view is that, up until the Upper Paleolithic, humans were frugivores (fruit eaters), who supplemented their meals with carrion, eggs, and small prey such as baby birds and mussels, and, only on rare occasions, managed to kill and consume big game such as antelopes.” – Wikipedia

    • Bam Bam says:

      Panu,

      The claims you advanced are outlined beautify in a book called The Okinawa Plan. The book explains why people in Okinawa have the highest rates of people living over 100 years of age. What’s interesting about the research is that it’s not just that the people from Okinawa live longer; what is interesting is that they are functional well into their 70s and 80s. They eat a vegetable based diet. Their main source of protein other than vegetable proteins is fish. If we are looking at scientific studies into why certain groups live longer (and more functionally at an older age) we should look at the people in Okinawa.

      The diseases we face as Americans are completely unheard of over there. Heart disease, Alzheimer’s disease, . . . The authors attribute their longevity to their diet and their levels of activity–they walk everywhere. And a significant portion of their population practices Tai Chi, I believe it is.

    • Bam Bam says:

      Pana,

      By the way, I haven’t seen you post before. I liked what you had to say above. How about introducing yourself? Where are you from? Are you a vegan or vegetarian? What got you into prepping?

      And welcome to the Wolf Pack.

  25. MtWoman says:

    Having been a vegetarian (but not a vegan) for several years when I was younger, and even a “fruititarian” for almost a year (eating only fruit), and then doing a macrobiotic diet for several years, I feel I have a little experience with this subject.

    I agree that a “mono” diet of ANY kind limits survival possibilities. In Nature, some critters have gone extinct, and others are threatened because they ate/eat “mono” diets, and their food sources are disappearing (Pandas are in this situation).

    And the same can be said of a dependence on a certain environment; Polar Bears are a good example. Their dependence on the ice to hunt and get food, and the fact that it’s melting at a large rate, could lead to their demise as a species.

    Specialization, in the long run, does not seem to work out well.

    “Adapt or perish, now as ever, is nature’s inexorable imperative”. ~H. G. Wells

    The reason I came off my own “mono” diet (I was a vegetarian at the time and had been for over 3 years) was because I became pregnant, and CRAVED animal protein. I went ahead and listened to my body and started eating animal meat. I had no problems converting. When the body needs a thing, it deals with it well. This is aptly exampled in the case of pain-killers: when a body is in pain, it takes the medicine to where it is needed, with few side-effects, unless there is an allergic reaction. If the med is taken when the body is not in pain, you get different results. In my case, the animal protein went directly to making myself and my baby healthy, and it is my guess that that was why I had no ill responses.

    I would like to add, that folks who are used to the ‘soft’ foods we mostly eat, could have as much a reaction to having to eat raw, wild plants (or meat) as a vegan can have when changing to meat eating. That is one reason I regularly eat raw dandelions, briarvine leaves, and other wild plants that I’m sure are edible (I’ve studied this for years). Could come in handy if TSHTF and I have to survive “out there” somewhere. Besides, they’re tasty, free, and FULL of enzymes and vitamins. I know I have certain things I’ve used for years that could become unavailable and I’ll have to use something else or nothing.

    People who are used to using certain kinds of soap, or cosmetics, or spices, or used to sleeping in a bed, or any number of other things will also have trouble if we have to do without, as well as any of us who are used to a certain climate, if we have to migrate.

    WTSHTF, there will be a LOT of “adapting” going on, on every level, for everyone, I think.

    I agree that the above article has a slant, which seems to come from the author’s early experience…and maybe some anger about that? But it is a good point being made, regardless of the presentation. It’s always good to be reminded of things to consider.

    • Any diabetic I have ever met , knows more about what foods contain than most other people ……..their life depends on it , for a prepper , they would be much more skilled in balancing their diet and knowing alternatives long before TSHTF . Believe it or not ( kinda makes sense if you are a practicing believer ) there are kosher survivalist sites out there , actually very interesting slant to prepping .

    • Just FYI, The demise of the Polar Bear is a Myth.

      • MtWoman says:

        OhioPrepper…could you elaborate, or at least give some links to info proving that?

        • MtWoman,
          A quick search for “polar bear population” yields about 3 million results, like this one “Canadian government finds polar bear population up 163% since mid-1980s (http://winteryknight.wordpress.com/2009/12/11/canadian-government-finds-polar-bear-population-up-50-from-three-years-ago/).
          You can easily check this stuff out yourself, but be sure to look at legitimate sources since there are fanatics on either side of this issue.

          • MtWoman says:

            Ohioprepper…the article that that link & excerpt goes to was written on MARCH 6, 2007. A lot can happen in 5 years. And it is a proven fact that they are struggling to hunt, as the ice they depend on is melting during the times they need it.

            And I must say I find the whole gist of the site that link goes to unsavory. Not my cup of tea.

            I imagine that we’d have to actually go be with the bears for some time to know what’s up with them. In the meantime, I’ll choose my source that supports my understanding of the situation, and you can have yours.

            An “agree to disagree” event I suppose. Either way, whatever either you or I think, doesn’t change the situation one way or another for the bears.

          • Mt. Woman and Ohio Prepper, I think you both should visit …..polarbears international.org and you will find your facts both pro and con.
            I do not think it is even questionable that the Polar Bear is facing a dwindling area in which to feed and breed. The ice loss in the Arctic has been tremendous over the last few years. Will it recover? Who knows for certain, we can only pray that it does.
            If we cannot rely upon the best scientific minds in this area who then should we rely upon? Lets all do what we can to see that we have fewer animals put on the endangered list. The Polar Bear has been placed on a few already.

            • MtWoman says:

              Hugh…thanks for the link….good one. From my *chosen* sources, I am convinced there is an ice loss, and that it is affecting the polar bears’ ability to hunt. We all will just chose to believe what we want I guess.

  26. Bam Bam says:

    It’s a myth that vegans are unable to digest meat. I know several people who eat a vegan diet and even more who were vegan at some earlier point. Vegans are able to digest meat but the meat should be introduced slowly and in small amounts.

    Being vegan or vegetarian for that matter will have both positive and negative consequences post collapse. For a positive consequences of a vegan diet, consider that vegans are rarely obese. On the negative, a vegan diet is very restrictive and if vegans choose to remain vegan post collapse, they will have even fewer options in terms of calorie intake.

    I do want to note that it is possible to maintain a healthy vegan diet. All vitamins and minerals needed by the human body can be obtained through vegetable sources. Human beings do not need to eat meat or meat products to survive. The problem is that vegans are like the rest of us–they are lazy and don’t do enough research to see what a healthy diet entails. Vegans often have trouble getting enough calcium. Bok choy is an excellent vegetarian source of calcium.

    Those vegans who have done the research and who are eating a healthy diet will have vast amounts of knowledge to share. It’s clear that post collapse, Americans will not be eating as much meat as we are eating today. We will need to get more calories from vegetable sources–beans and rice, with veggies added in for flavoring. We can learn a lot from vegans and vegetarians.

  27. Shepherdgirl says:

    I am 45 years old and have been a vegetarian since my teens. I was strict for about 10 years and developed anemia. I did not pay attention to protein and iron intake, and got into trouble. I then introduced eggs, dairy, and fish back into my diet and my health is excellent. Believe I am known as an Ovo (something) vegetarian? I am a runner, play lots of golf, lift weights, do Pilates and have energy left to spare.

    I don’t have a problem with red/white meat. I just don’t care for it, but will cook it for others – my husband is from Wisconsin and loves his beef and venison! If there was ever a situation where I had to eat meat for survival no problem. Bet some carnivore folks would eat Tofu too instead of starving.

    • The term is lacto-ovo vegetarian. I eat meat about 3 times a week in very small amounts but eat yoghurt, cheese, and a few eggs. Also lots of beans and nuts with a diet that has lots and lots of vegetables and fruit, raw if possible. Most of my cereal-type foods are 100% whole grain. I’m hardly ever sick except for seasonal allergies (local doctors refer to our area as the allegy capital of the USA–I can well believe it since I didn’t have them until I moved here).

    • Kelekona says:

      Shepherdgirl, milk and eggs makes someone a lacto-ovo vegetarian. Since you eat fish, you are a pescatarian, which brings you out of the vegetarian range but still more restricted than your standard omnivore.

      I used to be a… I’m not even sure what the term is for someone who only eats bird flesh. Then one day I couldn’t remember why I didn’t eat pork, and then I slipped into “I don’t care if beef is four times as expensive as chicken.”

    • axelsteve says:

      my wife was a host family for Japaneese exchange students. At that time most Japanese woman did not start menserating til they were 18. They have very little red meat in there diet but plenty of sea critters and veggies. Not much growth hormones in teh Japanese diet.

  28. Steve A says:

    It tried the vegan route with my ex. It lasted about 3 months, which was twice as long as the marriage. When she took off to “find herself”, I snapped, and butchered her pet pygmy pig. Man that was good eatin’!

    I’m a Type II diabetic, but thankfully require little meds to control it. Lots of my garden veggies, and lots of meat. Good thing is, if SHTF, sugary stuff will be the first to go – to some one else! That said, lack of meds for diabetics, cancer patient, and anyone else dependent on them to “just get by” is going to be rough. Limiting themselves to a specific diet, especially by choice, will just hasten the process.

    Now, when cigarettes are gone, I’m going to be a real bear! :)

  29. Well here is something that I learned from my mama,
    “If it don’t make a turd it won’t get you through the day”.
    “You had better have about 20 lbs of fat on you as you may need it” (proved out when I got sick and went from 180 to 118 within 2 months and my body started to eat my muscle).
    ” You have to eat food that sticks to the ribs”.
    So we ate meat, Beans,bread, potato’s and veggies with having our sweets with our meals not as a snack before bed.
    Life is what causes sickness, some quirk or twist in our individual lives. We can help our health along or hinder it.
    I would think that pure vegans muscles would play out or be eaten up with a SHTF lifestyle as their diet may drastically change from the vegan store and garden to wild foods.
    The non-red meat eaters I would think would have some muscle problems also. At least they eat chicken and fish.
    And remember just because some one is skinny doesn’t make them healthy.
    But remember this we are all going to be in a world of hurt and it ain’t going to be easy for anyone’s diet.

    • Wellrounded says:

      I like the way your mama thinks. Skinny is fine when there’s food on the table 3 times a day and you’re well. Once or twice during my life I’ve been ill enough to lose weight rapidly, my body coped well and my recovery was short. Not sure what would have happened if I didn’t have the extra weight.

  30. “I would think that pure vegans muscles would play out or be eaten up with a SHTF lifestyle as their diet may drastically change from the vegan store and garden to wild foods.
    The non-red meat eaters I would think would have some muscle problems also. At least they eat chicken and fish.
    And remember just because some one is skinny doesn’t make them healthy.
    But remember this we are all going to be in a world of hurt and it ain’t going to be easy for anyone’s diet.”

    I am pretty sure you just made a fact. For me and my own at the end of days or SHTF or whatever comes we will eat anything. I do mean anything. We already have that mentality in this household. My kid is two and a half and will eat anything because of our eating habits. We hope the way we eat catches on. I could say I eat a bible diet but caveman, survivor-man diet would be far more accurate.

    Some folk keep citing the American diet. The fact is that the diet that what the American Healthy eating plan has laid out is not what many, many Americans eat. Not even those eating healthy. There is too broad a brush being painted that doesn’t really apply to the current situation in America with regards to eating habits. Many people seem to think the obesity issue in the U.S. is because of the diet of Westerners ( when in fact the U.S. is made up of the most diverse society on the planet). To say we all eat the same and all Westerners are fat and unhealthy is silly. I, for example, am from Canada. I eat much more differently to what many of my friends down here eat. They love coming to my house for supper and call me ‘chef’ because most of what I make them reminds a lot of the older folk of their childhood.

    We have a lot of East Asians in our community here as well. To say they eat the American diet is a complete lie. They eat everything and it is the reason why my family gets on so well with them.

    The reason the American diet or Western diet is not working is the same as many other cultures throughout history. When things get posh and easy, people get fat and lazy. Exercise, exercise, exercise.

    I grew up with my Grandfather at his cabin where we had to lug water to drink and flush the toilets. Our diet was simple. We had little money and so we ate what others would throw away. Pigs feet. Pigs cheeks. Lamb cheeks. Cow cheeks. Cow tails and feet. Pigs tails. Seal flippers. All of the most disgusting and fatty foods you could think of.

    Our entertainment was hiking 5 miles or so through hills and streams to go fishing. One would think that after logging and construction/gardening work all day that this was crazy. Yeah, we were crazy. I was never in better shape in my life and my Grandfather to this day does not have an ailment to speak of. He is approaching 90. He has eaten this way for much of his life. The only time I have ever heard him complain was while on vacation in Florida. Even then he actually went out and worked with a bunch of guys constructing a community pool for free. Just so he could have something to do.

    I am like my Grandfather. I eat everything. I also can say I am in much better shape than most anyone I have ever met in Canada and America.

    Eat 3000 calories a day, sure. Go ahead. Just make sure to work off 1500. The human body is simple to please. Really it is.

  31. Banaras says:

    never mind that millions of people in Asia have been surviving on a vegan diet for thousands of years. Even doing hard labor. Meat and dairy products are too expensive for them so they eat beans rice and veggies. What will carnivores eat when game is scarce due to overhunting by hungry people. I suggest you begin finding out what plant food sources grow in the wild in your area to tide you over between times when you are able to find game. Most primitive cultures seem to have a plant based food source as a staple for those situations.

  32. Lifetime Vegan Woman says:

    Wow…. what an ignorant article this is. I’ve been vegan for 57 years. I live in the south and garden on many acres of land all year. It does not snow where I live either. Not that snow would be a deterrent to gardening. I know a Maine couple who garden all year within a greenhouse. Vegan preppers are also very capable of canning, drying , and preserving any harvest we grow or forage for. Don’t think we’re ignorant because you don’t like our choice of diet. We vegans who know how to do sustainable gardening aren’t going anywhere and don’t have to compete with all those who think they’re going to hunt when TSHTF… Just so you know… we have a complete nutritious diet with all the vitamins and minerals we need on a plant based diet. I know everything that grows around here that’s a wild edible should I ever need to forage. Don’t count us vegans out…especially if we’re awake and are prepper/survivalists.

    • MtWoman says:

      Glad to see your response Lifetime. I figured that it’s like everything else, there’s some aware, and some not. Sounds like you are, and will do well.

    • Bam Bam says:

      Lifetime,

      Good for you. I haven’t seen you post before. Welcome to the Wolf Pack. I hope you won’t let one ignorant article deter you from coming back. The articles here are usually quite informative.

  33. hollyhouse says:

    There are some points I would like to Make. As a vegan of 7 yearsthere have been a few times where I have accidentally eaten something with animal products, and aside from feeling foolish I had no ill health. There are also many vegan athletes who compete (and do very well) with those of a more conventional diet. I’m not sure where you got your facts from but I can assure you that when shtf vegans will pull through just like everyone else

  34. I might take this article seriously if a single item in it was based on any scientific fact. But to pick a random Bible quote to attack another’s food choices seems absurd. I can find Bible quotes that tell you not to eat pork or seafood. I can also find ones that say you should own slaves and never masturbate. Who here takes every last sentence in the Bible literally?

    Low b12 happens in meat-eaters. Some claim that it’s common in the American population right now. And considering that americans on average eat more meat than the recommended number of servings, could it be that B12 supplementation is a good idea for everyone? The interesting thing is that B12 is *not* produced by cows or pigs. B12 is produced by bacteria, such as in the gut or in the soil. (Where do you think a cow gets his b12 from? He doesn’t eat beef!)

    There is no scientific thing as a “protein” blood type. And the odd thing this author doesn’t understand is that protein is present in pretty much ALL foods. One can easily get more grams of protein per day in a vegan or vegetarian diet than the RDA. More important that protein grams are the essential amino acids. Our body makes the proteins we need to function and we can make most of the amino acid building blocks necessary. There are only 9 aminos we can’t make on our own, and those are all readily available from plant sources.

    To claim that a vegan diet “burned out one’s thyroid” with “copper levels” simply makes no logical sense. You might as well say the evil vegan spirits put a hex on you and an exorcism is called for. PLEASE get some education on nutrition. If you believe you have a damaged thyroid, please see a real Medical Doctor for help. “Healing” a bad thyroid by eating extra meat is illogical.

    People need to keep in mind that up until a few hundred years ago, meat was a luxury. Look at the less fortunate countries who are struggling with survival issues right now. They’re not eating meat at every meal. Some rarely eat it. Meat is expensive to produce, because the animal needs 6-10x as many pounds of food to produce one pound of meat. That is food that humans could eat. Meat is time consuming & takes resources to preserve. If a catastrophe happens, you won’t have a freezer to store it or factory farms to give it to you so cheap. Think about it: if your family is truly starving, do you eat the corn and oats you stored? or do you give it all to your cow in hopes a fraction of it comes back as beef later? In a catastrophe fresh water and the electricity to run pumps will be in short supply. If you only have a few hundred gallons of water, do you ration it to drink? Or do you give it to your cows (30 gallons per cow per day)?

    Ok, let’s say we forget about domestic meat supplies. But that implies there would be enough wildlife to feed everyone, that all regions have sufficient amount of easy to hunt wildlife, and that the wildlife will not be hunted to unsustainable levels. But evidence of recreational hunting in my part of the country shows that it’s not sustainable. In my region wild turkey and pheasant are gone. Elk have been gone for hundreds of years. And they’re working on exterminating deer. If hunting went from a hobby to a mandate for every family to stay alive, their numbers would be devastated. Even if diners lowered their expectations and also ate squirrel, muskrat, and possums, how long would this hold out?

    To really weaken people, brainwash them into thinking they must eat meat — and get them anxious when meat become scarce.

    The reality is that there are vegan bodybuilders, runners, and other athletes. There are vegan scientists and researchers. Statistics show vegans tends to be better educated. In any survival situation, a group of people will depend on some with extra education: the doctors, planners, engineers. You’d be amazed how many vegetarian/vegan people are out there. We need less resources. And we don’t have the heart attack and cancer rates of those of high meat diets. I don’t need to convince you. I just need to outlive you.

  35. This was a very offensive and extremely ignorant post. Shame on you. I came here for legitimate advice. Not brain dead biased ramblings.