Would US Police/Troops Fire Upon US Citizens?

 Would US Police/Troops Fire Upon US Citizens?

In a previous post (sorry, I can’t find the link it seems to have disappeared) we asked if US law enforcement and military personal would fire on U.S. citizens after a disaster, uprising, firearms confiscation or other trigger event.

The majority of responses to the afore-mentioned post and question, were “no they wouldn’t” and “if given the order they would go home” or “if they were given the order they would turn their weapons on the ones given the order”…

With everything going on in the middle east, and a the posting on zerohedge.com this week “End Game – Would US Police/Troops Fire Upon US Citizens?” - I thought it would be a good idea to poll readers of The Survivalist Blog to see if thoughts have changed.

[poll id="3"]

Please let us know why you chose your answer in the comments below…

Comments

  1. It’s happen before…

  2. Ditto Kathy.

    Also, your choices are a bit constricted. Some would and some wouldn’t. It would also depend on the situation. Riot? Looting? Natural Disaster? Attack? Crowds behave differently in different events.

  3. Chip Boyd says:

    As soon as the police sided with the protesters in Wisconsin I knew the score. You will not be able to count on the rule of law. Make sure you are ready to take care of you and yours.

  4. The United States is a huge piece of real estate. Various cultures, histories, weather patterns, politics, local economies. Then consider the makeup(s) of the various law enforcement agencies. City police, county sheriffs, state patrols, various components of each state’s National Guard. FBI, DEA, FEMA, TSA, DHS. The comes Army, Air Force, Marines, Navy (alphabetical order). Levels of training and experience are vast between all these groups.
    I can envision National Guard troops firing on a big city mob. I can expect city and county LEOs to use force against violence in their city/county. I do not, however, think that troops will follow such orders on any significant scale. Partly this is from lessons learned (My Lai for example) concerning accountability; and partly from chain of command accountability for issuing and obeying lawful orders.
    The alphabet soup groups, especially FEMA and DHS, will be the ones to watch.

    Bob

    • Nor Cal Ray says:

      I agree. I think the majority of regular Army troops would ignore orders of that nature. However there will always be some who would get a thrill or power trip out uf such orders. I believe a larger majority of National Guard troops would fire on citizens.

      Ray

      • Nor Cal Ray says:

        I do believe that most police would fire on citizens. There are a few good and conscientious Cops out there I’m sure, however there are cops out there like one in my city who wear 2 guns on there hips. Whats that all about? Trying to look cool I guess.

        Ray

      • richard Muszynski says:

        greetings. with the current record of murdering civilians the Army has i would not be so quick to decide they would not shoot their own mothers if ordered to do so. About the National Guard. I don’t think they are as criminally involved as the Army and Marines in the current war crimes. the police? they have shown over and over that they would certainly shoot to kill to protect their masters.

        • Lorenzo Poe says:

          Name them, name the ones who murdered someone or shut your pie hole!
          If you think someone is guilty of war crimes it is your responsibility to stop them. How come you are not in Washington stopping the US Congress? Seems like maybe you are guilty of the same thing you accuse others of!

  5. remember kent state

    • Nor Cal Ray says:

      Those were National Guard Troops. See My POINT above.

      • riverrider says:

        yes they were, but the modern guard is highly trained and disciplined. more so than some army units. being a 29 year veteran i feel the guard would balk at the orders first. they have closer ties to civilians, they almost are civilians. that being said, the plan is to deploy guard units far from home so those ties are weakened. what we have to watch is the fed cowboys. there is also a plan to bring in UN troops if the u.s.troops refuse to fire. this is not conspiracy theory but plans on paper. know it, prep for it.

  6. Patriot Farmer says:

    All we have to do is watch the TV news or read the newspaper to see almost weekly that the police overstep themselves and use violence against citizens who are not breaking any laws but are in the wrong place at the wrong time.

  7. Aside from tests and reports done in the 60’s (I think it was and we covered this about a year ago, or less), the reults are the same: Yes, they will. Also, at the time of the original posts, it was felt to be a 50-50 split as to who’d shooot or not, contrary the tests performed decades ago. And ‘shoot’ is the question- will they when told to do so irrespective of the event?
    Today, I’m thinking the split is closer to 90-10 who will shoot and who won’t.
    Still, the need to protect and defend one’s own is strong, perhaps more strong now than years ago when we were more naive about Uncle Titty, and perhaps more will now think about going home to cover their own butts.
    Regardless the outcome of polls- like everything, they’re skewed no matter what- I feel the time is fast approaching when we will find out first hand what the real poll will be.
    Shy III

  8. Brad in South FL says:

    I am a LEO. I can’t see the majority (yes there are some asshats that I would question their sanity and won’t work with NOW!) of my peers firing on a crowd of fellow Americans. I would question if it were a lawful order? I could not and would not do it! If there is a mass SHTF and there is a societal breakdown (a la Mad Max or The Road), I have to say that I consider my family priority one and chances are that they stopped paying me and my bosses all disappeared to save their own asses!

    I hope it never comes to this!

    Stay safe all

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. the order to open fire and murder civilians is a war crime and as such can never, under any circumstances, be a lawful order. in the old military to issue such a order was to face a instant execution by your own troops.

      • Brad in South FL says:

        I would do what I need to protect myself and if I were in fear of great bodily harm I would have to assess the totality of the circumstances, albeit very quickly. I can’t ever imagine shooting into a crowd. If there are 10 guys with guns shooting at me, I don’t think I would need any order to shoot back!

  9. I would hope that they would not but I must agree that this largely depends on the situation. It is very challenging to determine how an individual or group of people deal with cognitive dissonance.

    Lets pretend the order is to shoot at citizens looting and violently rioting. What do you do as an officer if you don’t believe in the order but everybody else in your unit/squad does? What do you do if you are following orders with your unit/squad and one person decides to not follow the order?

    My point is people to extreme things in extreme situations. Like most people here I think that you should be prepared for as many situations as you can.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. looting is not a capital crime and does not carry the death penalty in America. and if everyone in your unit decides to commit war crimes by obeying illegal orders and you follow orders and join them? Remember the Neurenberg trials of war criminals after world war 2. following orders is not a excuse for committing a war crime or a crime against humanity. Wasn’t then. isn’t now.

  10. templar knight says:

    Hmm….good question, and like anything else, it totally depends on the circumstances. My son is in the US Army, and we’ve had this discussion. He would not open fire under any circumstances on peaceful people, and would only fire if fired upon, and to save his own life. He would not obey an unlawful order.

    As for the police, some will, most won’t. There are a few bad apples who are capable of doing anything, but the vast majority of police are still the good guys, IMHO.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. i think you have more faith in the police then most people do. their record is not that good. and Army? are not the Special Forces assassination squads army? and do they not commit war crimes by order on a regular basis? question moot.

  11. In this day and age nothing surprises me. One would think that another human being would take stock of why the situation would warrent such an action against citizens.
    First they will say that it is their job to uphold the law. And they will not want to lose that job. I can almost understand that.
    Next if it is a complete break down of law and order there will be those that leave that field of work because they have the brain’s to figure out that it will turn on them in the end because of different factors. They have found out all is not equal or right and have sense enough to get out while they can.
    Then the only remaining one’s are the one’s with that limited moronic cop mentality. The one’s that love the power, their ability to stick it to someone just because they can. And they will protect their butts before they consider yours.
    I have seen the gold shield at work.
    I have seen that some cops don’t understand the collective sense of the word “you”, and many other common words or phrases.
    Now in a major city because of budget cuts they are training citizens to police their areas and report unlawful acts to the police. They don’t have money for police but they will have some extra police something- a-ruther train a bunch of people to be tattle tales. How deep will this run? How long will this last? Just what will it turn into?
    Do they not remember Germany and WWII?
    So now we will have to watch our neighbors as well. Ain’t that just grand.

  12. An absolute yes. Case in point, Kent State University, Kent, Ohio. 4 students killed, more wounded by national guard over a peace protest.
    Case in point, New Orleans, La. national guard forcefully disarms peaceful cititzens, at the order of FEMA. (a sign of events to come?)
    If ordered to do so, the average soldier would follow without question, beleiving to do so is in the best interest of the nation, which they serve. It is not the soldier who is to blame, but the black bag agencies running the game.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. nuremberg excuse. I was only following orders. does not excuse them from committing war crimes or crimes against humanity. it only shows they should never have been allowed to carry a gun, even under close supervision.

  13. Yep. Kent State was the first thing I thought of, too.

    My gut feeling is most law enforcement agencies in the U.S., regardless of where they are, will fall into a para-military mindset.

  14. I voted no, BUT…I agree it will depend on the situation. I think if something really big happens, it could go either way. We have to remember that in the near recent past, there have been many police officers killed in the line of duty during random traffic stops. I’m sure they are all on edge just looking out for their own lives right about now. Can you blame them with the idiots in the world today?
    I think most would think twice before firing on citizens. I don’t believe our military would take orders to shoot innocent people. These folks go to foreign countries and do everything in their power not to kill innocent civilians. I have hope most would not.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. check even the censored news on how those troops routinely gun down civilians and in particular women and children. latest is chopper gun crews shooting children gathering fire wood in Afghanistan. if they are willing to gun down children there what would be the reasoning to thinking they would not just as readily gun down your children as well?

  15. Jim Murphy says:

    I’ve seen in recent years that it is open season on police officers.
    Yet, most still show incredible self control.
    Any situation has the potential to spiral way out of control .
    I voted “no” as I think there are sooooooo many non-lethal options
    for law enforcement and the military to choose from today. However, when they realize that they are facing a life or death situation (those who choose to fire upon the law enforcement officer first), they will more than likely defend themselves with lethal force, as anyone of us would.
    Fight or flight. But to just open fire on unarmed people, I don’t see it. Kent State was in 1970. Training and non-lethal weapons have come a long way since then.

    • Jim Murphy,

      I think you missed the point and that was my fault – would they police and military fire on Americans first if given the order to do so by the government…

      • Jim Murphy says:

        MD,
        I am missing the point. I always try to give the majority of my fellow men and women the benefit of the doubt. This day and age with video phones everywhere, I still think someone would have a hard time giving this order when there are so many other options. It’s very possible that over the next few months/years we may find out.

  16. From the post M.D. linked to:

    “The short answer is that of course they will. Why would you think otherwise when US history offers up dozens of examples to choose from. The powers that be are ego maniacs, the elites have hundreds of years of experience controlling the masses and the masses are mostly living their lives in denial. I consider it inevitable that when the uprisings begin and they turn really ugly that those who are paid to protect the powerful and their assets will follow orders and do precisely that.”

    and…

    “Rest assured that long before any uniformed service person (police or military) is asked to confront their fellow citizens they will be subjected to a barrage of intensive conditioning and will be propagandized to the nth degree.”

    and more…

    “Considering the insanity the police and troops will be facing as well as the economic collapse that threatens them as well, the police/troops will rally around each other and protect their own closed community using whatever means necessary.”

    Sounds about right to me…

  17. while all of the troops and police are not likely to comply with fire orders, there will be plenty that will. The police in many cases are power hungry anyway. Why else would they do this job for the pay they get. Many will be anxious to impress their leaders and get promotions or recognition. The military might be less likely but even they will be willing to do so under special circumstances. Our only hope will be if things get so bad that the police and military are called against everyday Americans, that they will instead go home to their own families. We wont stand much of a chance against the high tech tools of the military but there are plenty enough armed americans to hold off the police if we had too. If they come looking for my guns and ammo I will have something to give them but he bulk will be hidden.

    • FN,

      I regards to your statement “We wont stand much of a chance against the high tech tools of the military”, tell that to the fighters of North Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Fighters from these countries have taken on “technologically superior” forces with some luck. In the case of the afghanis, they fought off one superpower(USSR) and are fighting(for 10 years now) another.

      In regards to would the military fire on civies, I think it would depend on how the situation was presented to the soilders by their superiors. Also, I’ve seen enough video of unarmed Iraqis being shot at, a lot of it for fun. One video is of soilders driving around peppering random cars with automatic fire and laughing and giggling about it. Of course, this doesn’t represent all soilders.

      MR.M

  18. Let’s see…

    Ludlow Colorado men, women and children were machine gunned to death by the colorado national guard and coal company employees.

    Battle of Blair Mountain Southeastern West Virginia, air force planes dropping bombs on striking coal miners.

    And of course kent state university… need I go on… If the group is given the order to fire they will fire that is how they have been trained…

    • OhioPrepper says:

      Ludlow Colorado was nearly 100 years ago. Kent State was 40. I don’t know a lot of the details about Ludlow, but Kent State was a tragedy between scared 18-20 YO kids with rifles and scared 18-20 YO Kids with rocks. The young guardsmen who had not been trained in riot tactics perceived danger and defended themselves. While a tragedy, I don’t think this really represents current day law enforcement and military training or attitudes.

      • richard Muszynski says:

        greetings. under american law shooting someone for throwing a rock at you is judged murder. someone shooting at you is one thing. a rock is another. those national guardsmen were not fearful of their lifes. the people they opened fire on were not armed. the national guard troops were and they had been issued live ammo.

        • OhioPrepper says:

          richard,
          You stated “under american law shooting someone for throwing a rock at you is judged murder” which is simply not true. Although IANAL I teach classes where we discuss use of deadly force. This applies in Ohio, but is generally true for most other states. You may use deadly force if you perceive that you are being threatened with lethal force or serious bodily harm. The key point is your mindset, and perception. If I’m about to heave a brick into your forehead from a few feet away, your perception might well be that I intend serious bodily harm, and use of lethal force in defense might well be justified, since a rock can be as lethal as a knife or firearm.

  19. Chris Kingsbury says:

    Yes, they’d shoot. But with that said, it would depend on the situation, and the unit. One with folks they are shooting at in the crowd, may have second thoughts.
    The elite units probably try to contain the crowds, but what type of crowd are they facing?
    Is the crowd armed, shooting, etc?
    The facts as you propose them aren’t known and that would drastically change the outcome.

  20. Mountain lady says:

    I think some will and some won’t. The problem as I see it is that we will not know which is which.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      Greetings. old Special Forces saying from the ‘Nam. shoot them all and let God sort them out. if some of them shoot at people then the people do not have the option of going out and taking their number and name. they simply react against the uniform and all wearing that uniform is automatically judged the enemy. which is what is getting a lot of American troops killed in Iraq and Afghanistan. only takes one psycho in uniform to open fire and kill to make them all the enemy.

  21. National Guard and police have, and would. Full-time soldiers, sailors, airmen and especially marines most likely would not.

    Regardless, governments should fear their people, people should not fear their governments.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. old time Marines would not. now? in surveys it has been found that most Marines do not even know what they swore to on enlistment and believe they swore to obey all orders of the president. know nothing about the constitution or geneva convention rules or the rules of war for that matter. they are now simply robots in human bodies.

  22. As a now retired warrant officer in the U.S. Army I know that I would never give an order to my soldiers to kill unarmed civilians. As a soldier you are trained to use your head when it comes to lawful orders and an order to fire on unarmed American citizens would not be lawful. From the police officer side I think that there are some nut jobs that would fire just because they think they are the law and not and officer of the peace. People go into police work for different reasons. Some of them have self image problems and are not good cops at all.

  23. James from Iowa says:

    Would they? They already have.

  24. They won’t fire on me, we’ll be hunkered down eating home grown veggies, fruit from our vines & trees and our stored preps.

  25. John Easley says:

    Kent State , Katrina

  26. Lint Picker (Northern California) says:

    I’m not so sure Kent State is a good example. I remember that horrible time in American history and those National Guard troops were under a lot of pressure from the protestors, and some of the protestors were far from peaceful. The green NG troops who fired were in a situation they had not been adequately trained for and they were feeling threatened. I am not sure how I would have reacted under the same circumstances.

    I am thinking more along the lines of Waco and Ruby Ridge. I agree with TNBob when he said he didn’t trust FEMA, DHS, TSA and other alphabet soup agencies. They are usually bureaucratic morons who think their credentials supercede the US Constitution.

    However, if looting occurs or college campuses erupt like they did in the 60s or racially-divided gangs destroy neighborhoods, then I’m standing with the cops and saying shoot to kill. Anarchists, socialists, commies, terrorists, and other groups that work to destroy our national foundation will get no sympathy from me. And I support our troops who are by the large majority decent and upstanding people.

    My hope is we never have to find out which of us is right. The question was too vague and perhaps speculation is not appropriate since it could undermine the morale or the support of the groups singled out.

    The puppetmasters never get burned, so maybe it’s time to draw them out into the open instead of pointing the finger at their unwitting pawns. Cops and military are mrely pawns, George Soros and his cronies are the guys to keep your eyes on.

  27. Ranger Rick says:

    They will do what they are told – I was enlisted 1996 – 2000 you are trained to follow orders. If they are told to fire 90% will.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. when i was in the Corps. we were programed to obey orders regardless of any other factors like right or wrong. we used to call it “altered” they altered your mind in basic and implanted the obey in there in place of everything you were taught before enlistment. my arguement with them is when you muster out they do not bother to deprogram you and return your mind to its original state. they just show you the door and kick you out of it.

    • Lorenzo Poe says:

      ROE.

  28. The world is nuts especially our CONgress! And you can bet your life ‘they will fire on you!’

  29. OhioPrepper says:

    I think it would be very situational. In the more urban areas with higher populations there is a different attitude between LEOs and the public at large. A riot or uprising with looters would IMO be kept at bay with non-lethal means as long as possible, but anyone, law enforcement included, who perceived that they were in imminent threat of death or serious injury, will do what they have to to defend themselves and the public.
    My gun club has several hundred members and more than a few are LEOs or retired LEOs. As an instructor I interact with many of them, and spent all day last Saturday with one at a statewide Hunter Education Instructor meeting, where BTW we were both armed with neither of us giving it a second thought. In general they’re people just like most of us, with the one exception that they see and have seen the darker side of life. They go into the neighborhoods that you and I avoid, and occasionally attend a funeral for a friend or colleague who was taken too soon, and that gives them a perspective and maybe a little attitude that is different than most of us. The ones I know are just working stiffs, trying to pay the bills and raise families, just like us.
    So, short of a mad max scenario, where perhaps you should trust no one, I think for the most part that they would not be firing on the vast majority of us; assuming you’re not in a mob, looting the local stores and threatening them with violence.
    As for rounding up firearms, the estimates are something between 300-500 million firearms in the hands of something north of 80,000,000 people in a country of more than 3.5 million square miles. That’s an impossible task and I think in general, law enforcement would not attempt it, at least outside of urban areas.

    • I think you are spot on when you say it will be situational.

      If the NG / Army / LEO’s were out in force tomorrow and given an order to shoot civilians, I bet you the vast majority would say no.

      However, in a world where the situation has seriously degraded, and society hangs on by a string, I can easily see a situation where most would open fire, because (in their mind) it is the right thing to do to save the country at that moment.

  30. Dean in Michigan says:

    I voted yes, based on the agreed upon fact that there will always be some troops who will do it. I do believe(and hope) that many will not. However, for those who decide not to kill innocents, they would have to quit/AWOL.
    For the cops, not such a problem. But AWOL troops could be viewed as defectors if things really got that bad.

    I too believe that many will follow orders just to stay within the power majority. Most soldiers will be away from anywhere they are familiar with, and will stay with their unit because they know the unit will always get resupplied as long as possible. Where would they be if they went AWOL three states away from their home in a SHTF situation???

    Stay safe all……………

  31. Alex (Canada) says:

    The thing is that some of them will and some of them won’t.

  32. Unfortunately some would. My father was one of the cops who put down the Columbia University riots and my brother is now an ESU cop in NY. I love them but it’s clear to me their loyalty is to other cops, not the citizenry. They are both of the opinion, and it was drummed into my head growing up that only the police should have guns. My wife is a cop who was retired due to line of duty injuries and she remembers NY cops that were pissed that they weren’t being sent to New Orleans during Katrina because they wanted to see the action.
    She claims there are three types of cops, at least in the NYPD. One type joins the job to do good and help people. The second because they are lazy and it’s an easy job (their opinion) for decent pay . The third type join because they are adrenaline junkies and usually because they like to hurt people.

  33. The brainwashing wore off... says:

    I think they would. All you have to do is look at history and consider human nature. Some will just do as their superiors tell them without questioning orders regardless of how immoral the order might be. All it would take is for one nervous nelly to fire and all h#!% would break loose. I don’t mean to offend the good soldiers and LEO out there, but the plain truth is there appears to be plenty of potential goose steppers out there.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. and in a confrontation with civilians it would only take one machinegunner to open fire on a crowd to set off world war 3 right then and there and make a target of every single mothers son or daughter wearing the uniform. I know i would take it personal if they opened fire on me. wouldn’t you?

  34. Of course they would, they have done it before & will again no question. I was part of a couple of demonstrations back in the late 60’s early 70’s & had a gun drawn on me by an LAPD officer & I stopped rather quickly.

    Unfortunately, sometimes crowd control comes in the form of hot lead.

  35. MOPrepper says:

    Well, some of them already beat the crap out of citizens, with a gang mentality. That’s already forbidden, and they do it anyhow.

    If given the order, for some of them it’d be like a birthday present.

    In the argument above for some will and some won’t, well, it doesn’t matter much – it only takes one that will and being in their line of fire at that moment. To that person, it matters a bunch.

    Personally, I’m not concerned with this at all.

  36. Crrrock says:

    Military and Police both wear uniforms. But it’s police that have a “badge”. I’d fear the one with the badge. Many carry the badge to be superior to those without. Their ego leads their brain. Military are trained to blind obedience to orders, police (IMHO) make up the rules as they go along. No disrespect to either code out there, there are good guys and bad, but I have known both and know whom to fear.
    Would they shoot?
    Dunno.

    Mike
    in Oz

  37. Of course they would fire. Maybe not all of them at first but enough would to escalate things until they all are. Alphabet agencies and large force LEO’s will fire to a man with more than one smile on their faces while doing so. Smaller city and county LEO’s along with National Guard units operating within their local recruitment and residence areas would be 50/50 I imagine. Federal military will more than likely be 80% willing to fire since so many in the military would be operating in an area they have no local affiliation with. In many cases a number of military recruits have racial and gang affiliations which mean more to them than a Constitutional oath anyway these days.

    The National Guard if Federalized will be used in the old Russian model of sending California troops to quell riots in Alabama or New Mexico troops to disarm residence in New Orleans. etc.

  38. This is a good question and one I have been thinking about lately. I am a bit surprised at the lack of analysis of some respondents.

    Up front I am a former Regular Army Infantry Officer with combat tours in Somalia and Afghanistan. I’ve also served in the National Guard and am the son of a retired police officer.

    I think the honest answer is unfortunately…potentially. I will explain my reasons for this in a moment, but I think many folks on here might be missing the main point; i.e. what are you doing to get fired upon? Before anyone goes off the deep end I am fully aware of “the fog of war” and how people can be caught in cross-fire. Having said that, the Kent State knee jerk reaction by so many people is kind of frightening to me.

    Read your history people! The “students” at Kent State were not Grandpa and Grandma Jones of the modern day Tea Party. They were radicals oragnized by the SDS (yes, some may have been stoners who just showed up for the fun of it). The leaders of the SDS were also founders of the Weather Underground; the same group that bombed the Pentagon and Police Stations. My point here is that the “students” at Kent State were set up by the leaders of the radical left that wanted to provoke violence, becuase they believed (and many still believe) that it would insight a revolution.

    I am not defending the ill disciplined actions of the Ohio National Guard in this instance, but the protestors were not flower children expressing their 1st Ammendmant rights. As such, I think the likelyhood that I get capped by the authorities is minute, because I am not planning to insight a leftist revolution. If you are, I can recommend much better blogs for you to visit.

    As for my thought that it could potentially happen; it is based on my personal experience. First managing violence is truly an effort to control chaos…very difficult. I’ve seen bad things done by good people. In the heat of the moment it is not uncommon for a soldier, no matter how disciplined, to focus so much on the task that they forget the purpose. In other words, getting the job done can turn into a sort of tunnel vision. I’ve seen it happen in combat many times and that is why I always drilled into my troops head to remember the purpose of the mission.

    An example to illustrate my point: The task might be to disarm a neighborhood. The purpose of which is to deny radical elements from commiting violence in the neighborhood. So, the 18 year old Private from Iowa who is being led by the 21 year old Sergeant from Georgia set out to accomplish the mission with much angst, because they could get killed in the process. As they go door to door they meet with various reactions, but their guard is always up. As the day goes on it is easy to lose focus on the purpose and focus solely on the task, which in this case is disarming a neighborhood. This is exactly why the nice old lady down the street from you gets her .22 confiscated.

    So, potentially it could indeed happen. However, I believe that most combat arms soldiers will always do their best to do the right thing. Please keep in mind who these kids are! They are the 10+% of the millitary that volunteer for the most dangerous jobs of closing with and destroying the enemies of our Country. 99.9+% of them are Patriots and are willing to die defending The Constitution. Do they some times make mistakes? Yep. Hello! Some times they accidentally kill their own! War is ugly!!

    Two final thoughts: 1. Stay the F@#K out of situations that put you in a direct confrontation with Soldiers or LEOs! And when and if you are around them, stay calm, thank them for their service and act like a human. If you do this, I think you have a better chance of being struck by lightening than getting shot by an American Soldier.

    2. To all the Kent State knee jerkers…enemies are both foreign and DOMESTIC my friends. Don’t be an enemy!

    • JeSter,

      Who decides who the enemy is? That is the scary part – with the signing of a new law (or a different interpretation of an old one) you or I can be made into an enemy of the state… “Don’t be an enemy” I’m afraid that is will more difficult over time as the rulers in power tighten the reins. In the future you could be labeled a domestic terrorist because you are stockpiles food, gear and bought over 200 rounds of ammo in a certain period of time.

      • MD,

        JeSter’s final points are right on the money in my experience and opinion. The enemy is any threat – be it foreign, domestic, neighbor or uncle.

        If you are in a space where trouble is brewing, then gets out of hand and you choose to stay, prepare to pay the price – whatever that is. The Somali’s had a chance to leave & fight another day or hang tight – that clearly became their (poor) choice. I seriously doubt they are currently dancing with 49 virgins ….

        *********
        Extrapolating to & ultimately being considered a domestic terrorist because you have excessive food & 200 rounds of ammo, are you kidding me??

        I guess it could easily follow that once those items were confiscated, this new enemy of the state would then be hauled off in a rail car to one of the giant concentration camps that have supposedly erected for these new dissidents, right?

        Much to the dismay of some, I think I’ll stop there before I get permanently get banned.

      • MD,

        I don’t dismiss your point. My answer was based on how things are right now and in the near future. Remember the American Soldier is a volunteer and has sworn an oath to protect and defend The Constitution. Like I said, 99.9% of the trigger pullers in the millitary are not fans of leftists and totalitarianism. Thus, simply passing a law or re-interpreting one will not necissarily change how they would respond in the short term.

        Having said that, I believe the future scenario you suggest where having food and ammo labels you a domestic terrorist, and or any other fundamental transformation of our Nation that can be dreamed up, will likely result in a civil war. I hope not a bloody one.

        So, when I say “Don’t be an enemy” I mean as of today don’t be a jerk-off to Soldiers or Cops! Don’t be a right-wing alternative to SDS, The New Black Panthers, Neo-Nazis, Anarchists, Socialists, Communists, Teamster thugs, SEIU thugs etc. For the time being, acting like a responsible Citizen of a Nation we once had and hope to have again will pretty much ensure that you do not get capped up by men and women in uniform.

        Isn’t survivalism about staying alive? So, don’t get in situations where you are in direct confrontation with Soldiers and LEOs. Secondly, you might want to befriend some of these folks. You might be surprised how many think just like you do and if things ever get that bad they will be the ones deciding wether to follow an order or not. Thirdly, you (the collective you that read and comment here) might want to reconsider your thoughts about the National Guard. Yes, some are indeed fat; particularly the older Colonels in my experience…remember I was Regular Army first. However, many of the younger enlisted guys have done more combat tours than many Vietnam Vets and certainly have more combat experience than Regular Army Veterans of Desert Storm.

        Anyway, I’m rambling now. I’m glad to see Bill (below) mentioned Kent State! He must be a Communist as well.

        Anyway, have a great weekend everyone!

      • charlie says:

        For those that don’t know and as a reminder to all of the rest,
        some of those folks who were active in the SDS and other similar organizations in the 60’s are now members of or closely aligned with the current administation. No I didn’t have to hear that on Fox News. I was a college student in the 60’s and I recognize their names when I hear them.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      Greetings. when you were a RA Officer did you not know that the war in Afghanistan was illegal as was the occupation. the constitution states really plain that only congress can declare war. they didn’t. so you were obeying illegal orders to even be there. during your entire tour did not those under you at times, due to whatever excuse, kill civilians? did you as an officer immediately put them in the brig and bring court martial charges against them for violations of the rules of war? of course not. so the argument of killing people to protect and defend the constitution smells a little like self justification. if you were so concerned about the constitution why did you obey orders of either Bush or Obama to commit what is considered war crimes by the rest of the world?

      • I’m glad you’re so supportive of those that serve! Thanks for the lesson on The Constitution. I’ve read it several times and you sir are a bone head!

        Our country was attacked on 9/11 and the initial response, of which I was a part, was to capture and kill those responsible and destroy those who facilitated it. You can’t declare war on a terrorist organization that has no boundaries and is not a recognized as a State.

        If you want to look at what the Founders might have done you need only look at America’s first encouter with radical Islamists; The First Barbary War (1801-1805).

        “In response, Jefferson sent a group of frigates to defend American interests in the Mediterranean, and informed Congress. Although Congress never voted on a formal declaration of war, they did authorize the President to instruct the commanders of armed vessels of the United States to seize all vessels and goods of the Pasha of Tripoli “and also to cause to be done all such other acts of precaution or hostility as the state of war will justify.” Wow! That sounds strikingly similar to what happened after 9/11.

        If you want to debate the merits of Executive decisions on the use of force in the Country; fine with me. I don’t agree with almost any President in all matters of foreign policy. However, I would recommend you study American history a little better before you start preaching to a Veteran about The Constitution.

        So, no sir I did not follow illeagal orders. Nor did the kids who fought in Desert Storm, Panama, Grenada, Somalia, Vietnam or Korea. Furthermore, none of my troops killed or even engaged civilians in either of my tours (Afghanistan or Somalia).

        I hope you realize that people that think like you will be just as guilty of enabling the destruction of what is left of our Great nation as the radical Leftists and Islamists.

  39. Kent State

  40. MD, great question! I love hearing the responses of all of these clueless, arm chair warriors.

    I am currently a TSA agent working at a large airport. Pardon me for having the gall to politely ask you to remove your belt and empty your pockets before you walk through the metal detector. I guess that qualifies me as a jackboot who is above the law and gets off ordering people what to do. But then again, we haven’t had another 9-11 since the inception of the TSA. But, I will get back to the TSA in a minute.

    Before the TSA, I was an officer in the Marine Corps. I served for 4 years and was selected for early promotion to Captain before I got out. I had also led a small detachment on board ship for 6 months in the western Pacific and Middle East regions, while serving with a Marine Expeditionary Unit- Special Operations Capable.

    Would I give the order to shoot my fellow Americans? Honestly, that all depends. If I was ordered to guard a food warehouse and starving countrymen were looting it to feed their families…then, I would order my Marines to stand down and look the other way. I would not give the command to shoot fellow Americans 99% of the time.

    The other 1% of the time is another story. What if my platoon and I were sent to Madison, WI to help restore order in the capitol. Let’s say my 40 men and I are surrounded by 500 hostile protesters and there’s no hope of reinforcements. All of a sudden, 3 of my Marines fall because they are pelted by bricks. Then, what do I do? The crowd, emboldened by the sight of “the man” getting knocked unconscious, start throwing more bricks and some actually brandish pistols…then what do I do? God help the person who has harmed one of MY Marines! Honestly, no matter what the Rules of Engagement dictate, I would order my Marines to horizontally butt stroke everyone within range of our rifles. If this did not quell the situation and especially if shots were fired in our direction, I would order my men to shoot back. My reaction would be measured by what is forced upon me. I realize the full implications of my order and would testify during my own court martial that my Marines were only acting on the order i personally gave…and , I am the only one culpable and willing to take full responsibility for my actions.

    Kent State was brought up. Do you really think those national guardsmen shot those kids at the drop of a hat? Were they provoked? Who knows? Were you there? how can you pass judgement on the national guardsmen if you weren’t there? Or are you taking the mainstream media’s take on the incident as Gospel?

    Going back to the TSA, I feel blessed that I am working for them. The media claims we make minimum wage- which is a lie- we make more than that. Plus, we receive full benefits. Between my time in the Marine Corps and TSA, I was in Corporate America for 10 years. I was laid off for a year and a half before I got hired on by TSA. I- like the other TSOs- do not enjoy giving pat downs. We have to give them because passengers refuse going through the innocous AIT machine. If you still feel that the TSA is unnecessary, then please offer me a supply chain management job paying me my old compensation of $70,000 per year. If this is still too steep of a price for you, then offer me unlimited unemployment benefits and benefits at a fraction of my old compensation. Or do you think all people on unemployment are lazy and are not earnestly looking for gainful employment? You can’t eat you cake and have it too. If TSA has outlived its usefullness, then please get on a plane without screening. Also, don’t complain about me getting unemployment benefits.

    • Clearly Thinking says:

      No problems with you personally, but you are caught up in a machine that you cannot see clearly.

      During the times of Hitler, some people had the jobs to sew the stars upon the coats of Jews. So, the response from them would probably be something along the lines of “Well, hey, if I didn’t do it, someone else would, and I need the money to feed my family”.

      As for no 9-11 because of the TSA, please. There hasn’t been another 9-11 because it already served it’s intended purpose. Follow the money, if you can.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. spoken like a true follower of the leader. just like the gestapo did under their leader in world war 2. there was no 911 repeat because there wasn’t one to start with. you should study at least a page or so ordinary physics. might open you squeezed shut eyes a little. think. if you were a terrorist against the U.S. why would you choose a near empty office building already scheduled for demolition. when just a moment flying time away was the huge liquified natural gas depot in New York harbor and the LPG tankers sitting there waiting to unload. our own FBI did a study on the LPG depot in the cold war and decided that a attack on it could set it off and take out New York City in the fireball and a good piece of New Jersey as well. and right in the harbor as well was the statue of liberty that is seen by all as a symbol of America. but no, a empty office building complex gets hit by 2 planes. get real. no terrorist is that stupid, only our own government trying to create an excuse for war like they did with the Tonkin bay incident that got us into the ‘Nam war.

    • Lint Picker (Northern California) says:

      1, thank you for your service to America as a Marine. I support our military. I also support our Constitution and feel that the best way to keep airplane passengers safe and America safe is to restrict who comes into America at our borders, on flights BEFORE they get to our shores, and on the ground before the terrorists can board planes for domestic flights. IOW, why hassle citizens – why doesn’t the government secure our borders and restrict who can fly or float or swim to our shores? Why not PROFILE the people who are doing the terrorist acts? Those people are MUSLIMS! It’s common sense, yet our govenment seems totally lacking in common sense and backs down at the first sign of a threat from ACLU or CAIR.

      Furthermore, I don’t think the TSA is doing a good job at all. I am not ridiculing all of the TSA employees, but more their supervisors and administration because far too many of them consider themselves above the Constitution. They want to restrict Americans while the true menaces find other ways to get in and cause trouble. Often some terrorist nut job gets onto a plane and then it’s the PASSENGERS who have to subdue him before any serious damage can be done. So much for the “value” of the TSA and Air Marshals, huh?

      The TSA could be quite valuable in preventing terror attacks if it focused on the domestic terrorists and not grandma on the way to visit her grandkids. Or if the TSA focused on keeping out Muslims so they couldn’t get here and kill us. Yeah, I’d ban all Muslims until their brethren took a stand against the terrorist element in their religion and joined with us instead of quietly smurking in the background everytime one of their fellows kills an American. Need I remind anybody about Ft. Hood and the domestic terrorist who opened fire on other military personnel? He was NEVER chastised or shunned by his fellow Muslims, and after the fatal shootings, still nobody stood up against him in the American Muslim “culture.” Nope, the TSA is useless while its being used as an harassment against Americans and not being used where it should be – in foreign airports, shipyards, ports, and keeping the trash out of the USA.

      If you want to maintain your integrity and your honor – find a new job. Being ex-military, finding a new government job shouldn’t be all that hard for you.

  41. They shot rant weavers 14 year old boy in the back as hecwas running from them. They shot and killed his wife while she was standing in a doorway holding a baby in her arms. The branch davidians in Waco would have probably voted yes as well if any of them where alive. When I’m pulled over for an inspection on my truck, it’s buy a man dressed in battle fatigues with his pants bloused and fully armed just so he can crawl under my truck and check my brakes. they kicked in doors in new Orleans and confiscated guns from law abiding citizens and left them with no means of defending Thier lives from the roving hordes of gang members. The Houston police have several lawsuits against them concerning beatings that where given to people during routine traffic stops. Now the Houston police want a law passed that would make it illegal to record Thier actions at traffic stops. There is no doubt in my mind that they would fire upon us if ordered to. The us against them para military mentality that has been perpetuated in the various agency’s had only served to dehumanise the very people they are intended to protect. I also believe that mindset is and has been carefully nurturedover a long period of time.

  42. Under the radar in ND says:

    Some would – the POLITICAL generals/admirals would accept orders from their political bosses as valid. They would force the middle level officers to pass on the orders or face the consequences. About half would resist but the others would comply. Many low level officers, bucking for promotion, would issue the orders to the troops. The gung ho types would comply and there are enough of them to kill a lot of us. A lot of good military personnel will resist but the bad/political/rank-climber types will shoot. The police worry me more because they will feel over powered and feel whatever they do is “self-defense”.

  43. Some of the young ones would for their trained not to question their chain of command.

    Rifleman 336

  44. You ever wonder if someday there will be a trial somewhere, just like the one at Nuremberg, and those on trial will speak American English as their native tongue? Or Canadian English? Or British English? Or how about French or Spanish? And when asked why they did what they did, they’ll answer, “I was just following orders.”

  45. Mental Matt says:

    Ok, lets think about this. Kent State was National Guard, not us . Furthermore, don’t be so quick to judge Police Officers as to assume we would open fire on unarmed people just because we were ordered. Please, Oh yea and I know (the rogue cop element), sounds great but however, ther are bad people everywhere. Jack Webb stated from the old T.V. show Dragnet “Unfortunatly we have to hire from the human race” or something that close. Which means we get some bad persons, however they are in any job! My GOD! because this is my profession and how I feed my family and pay my bills, this makes a murderer. Please. I am riot trained and continue to train for that all the time. Never are we trained to open fire on a crowd. You would have to be shooting at me or my people first for that to happen. A whole lot of serial killers that have been caught are not Police Officers, so you know what , stop blaming us we did’nt cause this chaos, we will only try to contain it her at home. God Bless

    • Mental Matt,

      About 20 years ago there was a guy who lived not far from where I lived, the police were called out to his place because he had ran some kids off his property and they said he had a gun. The guy refused to come out of his trailer but hurt no one. The police started out with tear gas, when that didn’t work they started shooting, they putting thousands of rounds through his trailer, they shot for hours.
      He was found dead the next morning he had was a .22 rimfire rifle and a shotgun, they claimed he shot first. There “proof” was a bullet hole through the front finder of one of the police cars that did major damage to the engine. That was one powerful .22 rimfire round (I personally viewed the damage and it was not done by a .22 had to be a .223) think about it.
      I talked to one of the cops involved a month or so after it happened and he did not try to hide the fact that he enjoyed pulling the trigger. He said he shot over 1,000 into the trailer himself.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. so if i was a undercover agent sent by washington to stir up trouble and took a shot at your “peaceful riot control” troops you would order them to open fire on everyone around them? are you that sure of yourself to be able to tell if the first shot was fired by the unarmed civilians in front of you or by a government provacure sent to get the ball rolling? the justification that you do this to feed your family doesn’t cut it. the Gestapo and extermination camp goons also had families and only did their jobs to support them.

  46. The short answer “yes”… beause they DON’T shoot the colonels…

    When to Shoot the Colonels by Tom Baugh

    http://www.webwarrioronline.com/index.php/the-news/65-when-to-shoot

  47. If the military and police are ordered to fire on Americans, there will be no less than a civil war–with modern weapons for both sides. There will be government loyalists, and they will call themselves patriots. There will be the deserters (who refused to obey the order to fire), who will be called traitors. Much killing will happen. The armed forces will turn on themselves and the lines will be drawn. The real question is will this US Sergeant and his squad fire on that US Sergeant and his squad. To hell with any civilian skirmishes-the military infighting will win or lose the day.

  48. Bctruck said it best. To which I would add kent state, Katrina and G-20 pittsburgh.
    I will also add my own experiences some years ago during a truckers strike. I was a military loaner on patrol with state police to counter overpass snipers. We didn’t find any, so I didn’t shoot any. Would I as a young inexperienced soldier have shot civilians?In a heart beat. It took awhile before the gung ho rubbed off and the questioning of orders and blind obedience ceased. Will western Pa LEO’s and guardsman shoot at civilians? Almost to a man, Yes…. E-5 and below 11-bravo’s that I have polled say they will do as ordered.
    Me, I’ll be gone, doing my SERE thing in the big woods. I’ll stay gone for a decade or more.
    Jester needs to wake up and smell the coffee. As does the TSA individual.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      Greetings. you got that right. I assume you spent time in the crotch as well?

  49. It’s like, duh, of course they will. Don’t People read the news or visit freedominourtime.blogspot.com it’s like, WTH? Don’t People have a clue?

    “Honestly, no matter what the Rules of Engagement dictate,… my Marines were only acting on the order i personally gave”

    The world has heard that before.

    TSA is unnecessary, find another job, expect to earn less and quit expecting the world to owe you employment and a high standard of living. Instead of taking unemployment benefits try creating a job, be an entrepreneur, ya know that’s supposed to be the American way, opposed to the Gestapo way.

  50. Two words: New Orleans.

  51. IMO I think that the situation would dictate the wether the orders to do such an aggregeous act against friends family members and neighbors would weigh very heavy on whoever decides to comply. First of all they would have to worry about retaliation to their families and themselves. The town I live in is a county seat and we have an FBI office the state police the county police and city police and to include an airwing of national guard with a mechanized attachment, but given that there is alot of weapons owned by the citizenary that could rival the opposing forces. Now if those people could not be assured that their families and relitives could not be shuttled off to safety somewhere they would end up being casulities either by crossfire or in retribution. These people would have to know in advance of an order to commit this abomination and most likely the word would get out and the spiriting these people away would most likely not work. That is why I said no. But hey I maybe giving my fellow man more than he deserves. In any case I am prepared and have been trained to be as ruthless and sadistic as the situation would have me be. How unfortunate that we would be in that situation let alone even discussing it.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. being ruthless and sadistic as the situation demands can back fire on you. you feel threatened and murder my son or daughter or wife and i too can be as ruthless and sadistic as you say you are trained to be. many of us out here have been trained by Uncle Samual to be ruthless and sadistic and it would not take much to trigger our old training. do that and your butt is in the deep stuff.

      • I think Terry, Russel and Richard have hit upon something here- and immediately brought a question to mind, or a certainty, I’m not sure which.
        Our question is whether we think the military and LEO will shoot at Americans- and we have to ask ourselves the same question: “Can we, as civilians, shoot at the military and/or LEOs or other Americans when the need arises?” (and I believe it will arise sooner than later.)
        I’ve answered the question for myself- and it is ‘yes’, because I will not tolerate or allow any UN blue helmeted troops in my AO, regardless which uniform they wear under the helmet. Or whatever their job description is. Nor will I allow indiscriminate shooting of other civilians just because they’re getting a bit rowdy and some LEO or Troop decides they need be taught a lesson or held in check by suppressive fire. Nor will it matter to me which side of the political spectrum the civvies are from: if they’re being attacked by dotmildotleo for raising their voices or become a ‘perceived threat’, they’ve become my enemy.
        Shy III

        • richard Muszynski says:

          greetings. you can count on me and my Hakim to be there on your side at least in spirit. we have to stand or we will fall and that is not a option.

  52. Ridge Runner says:

    Law enforcement officers and military personnel are trained to follow the orders of their superiors right up through the ranks. However, I believe a lot hinges upon whether or not one respects his superiors. Today I think that respect is questionable.

    • Peregrin Took says:

      You’re forgetting something: Food. If things are really bad, military will follow the orders of their superiors because that’s how they earn their bread. You seem to be assuming that these individuals have a better option. If they don’t have anything else to go home to, then yes, they’d follow almost any order.

  53. Russell says:

    As a current law enforcement officer, I would never fire upon unless being threatened with deadly force or protecting someone else. If things go down the way people believe they will, I am going to worry about getting my family out of the city safely. I believe most officers feel that way. My family and love for helping people are the reason I am an officer and family is the number one priority.
    I don’t want to take guns away from citizens unless they pose a threat to others because I believe everyone has a right to own firearms. Just don’t jack gramma’s car with it!
    We are making plans and preparing, but I hope it does not come down to lawlessness and mayhem.
    I enjoy this blog and you do a great job on it. Thanks and be safe!

    • Russel,
      I believe most military and police officers feel the way you do, but ther are those few, New Orleans and katrina for example, that give everyone a bad name. I hope and pray we never really have to find out.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. if it does come to it then get the hell out . As they say in the Marine’s Either lead, follow or get the hell out of the way. once the gates of hell are opened it will be impossible to close them. you sound like one of the good ones. get your family safe that is what matters.

    • Russel said “As a current law enforcement officer, I would never fire upon unless being threatened with deadly force or protecting someone else.”

      And therein lies the problem. LEO/Military will not just open fire on innocent crowds, of course not. But, when those crowds get angry from starvation/loss of rights or they don’t “obey” and they constitute a “threat”, they’ll be shot at. Especially at first, then LEO/Military will realize what they’re doing and start defecting in massive numbers. Then we’ll see the second civil war start and then we’re no longer all Americans, it’ll be US vs. THEM and all bets are off.

      Look at Waco, Ruby Ridge, Kent State, Katrina, etc. it’ll happen again. If normal law abiding gun owners defend themselves against the unlawful confiscation of their weapons, the cops would consider them a threat and killed them.

  54. Lots of folks in here saying “these guys might, but most wouldn’t.” It only takes a few. Also, when one starts firing, there are often many more who join in without knowing why.

    On today’s date in 1770, British troops fired on a crowd of protesters in the Boston Massacre. Crispus Attucks became the first American killed in what would become the American Revolution.

    Whether US military forces, National Guard, federal agents, local cops, it doesn’t matter who it was to the people who get attacked. The vast majority of the above are honest, hard working patriots. But it has happened before and will happen again.

    For the record, I am a combat veteran Marine and was a cop for 15 years.

    • I agree, you’re right in the fact that most would join in w/o knowing why. Same with protesters, they act w/o knowing why or what exactly they’re doing, but they do it anyway because it’s a crowd environment. Cops aren’t perfect, neither are soldiers or Marines, and a crowd is a crowd. When bullets go downrange from one gun, it may be for good reason….or not. And the rest follow suit, next thing we know there’s dozens killed and injured by their fellow countrymen.
      It’s nasty no matter how you slice it.
      There are thousands who are willing to defect the moment they get these orders, because killing Americans isn’t what they signed up for. But once the crowd aspect is introduced, they may open fire out of their own survival (depending on the situation, if it’s open riots and what not) or even out of fear alone. I would like to believe that most of them are patriots, but they aren’t. Local cops, a lot are. National Guard, most are. Federal Army and Federal agents, not so much. They can’t wait to strip away Constitutional rights in the name of “doing my job” and “public safety”. After all, the more prisoners they create the more their large budgets are justified, right?

  55. To put a personal point on the question – if I were a soldier or any kind of armed peacekeeper, would I shoot a fellow American? No but, I would have no problem shooting anyone that poses a threat to me or my “family’s” life – wouldn’t even think twice about it. The individual ceases to be an American at that point.

  56. charlie says:

    I think that the question can’t adequately be answered with a yes a no. Certainly it will and has happened, WACO, Ruby Ridge, Kent State to name a few. However I don’t think the majority of US military troops would turn on the population. At least I sure hope not. I believe police agencies (federal, state and local) would me much more likely to do so.

    In either case I believe after an initial event or a couple of events the cops and soldiers would see the horror and realize what they were doing was wrong. The existance of the Oath Keepers organization tells us that military and police are already dealing with the thought processes and many are signing an oath not to fire on citizens.

    I hope I’m right becuase I fear they will have to make that choice soon enough. The problem is that our citizens are no longer a united front.
    Now days we are fragmented into groups. I dare say that most of us in on this blog site can name at least one segment of the population that we would not object to the police or military taking action against if they rose up. The problem is that they view us the same way.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      Greetings. not united now. but would we be if the government decided to enforce martial law on us and start the planned killings? the Germans found out in the second world war that the partisans that were strangling their supply lines were not one united group. were many of them, even those who hated each other that attacked the common enemy. anyone who wore German Grey or Black. Don’t count on the people in america having to be united to stand. we don’t need to be. instead of us being afraid of the camo uniformed military or the countless police and secret police we have. they should fear what would happen if they opened the door to hell. even just our veterans outnumber them. and we are all trained to shoot.

  57. The confusion surrounding a shtf situation will be immense, so I think it all depends on the context of the situation. In an complete economic collapse, or an emp event – the all out worst of scenarios, I feel cities will no longer be able to pay employees and thus law enforcement will cease to exist.

    Active duty military will have themselves and their families being taken care of by the government, and will thus be more loyal. National Guard? All depends on the terms of their call up, but in the worst of situations, people are going to do what they have to do to take care of their families – and if the government is standing there with an open hand saying, “come with me and I’ll provide food, water, shelter to you and yours as long as you do what I say,” I think in the worst of situations there will be plenty of takers, and if given the order to fire on civilians, yes – I think those in that situation would.

    There are a lot of wonderful men and women occupying the ranks of our military, and I think in most situations they would not – I don’t see a Kent State happening again, however, if the stakes are high, and not following orders means being kicked out on the street to starve, it will be a different mindset for those still in the military- they will do whatever they have to do to survive.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. but their survival will be at the cost of how many innocents lifes? is their life worth that? not any mention of honor I note.

      • Exactly Richard, but military service pays more in benefits than it does in cash – I would imagine that the numbers of “prepared” individuals in the military is as much or even less than the general population, which we know isn’t much – when the schumer hits the fan, that might be their only option to keep themselves and their families safe – many won’t, but enough will- they will have no other choice.

  58. i believe even though there are many officers and agents that would refuse that order there would enough that would obey it. we can see the reaction by police in simple situations, that turn violent and even deadly. just look at some of the videos on youtube, of supposedly good police officers who end up injuring or killing the person they are trying to subdue,. this includes the old, children, the infirm and mentally challenged. i just saw a video of an officers’ assault on a teenager who was on the ground, all for skateboarding. so if there was a food riot or a protest where the people attending had the chance of becoming violent, i could definitely see the police or other agencies firing at the people

  59. Bonus March on Washington after WWI – police had crew-served weapons ready to fire on U.S. WAR VETERANS who were peacefully marching on Washington.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. and could very well do it again at any time.

    • OhioPrepper says:

      I find it interesting that all of the large scale examples are 40 to 100 years old. Although there are indeed some small examples in the near term, I think the composition of the military and police and the attitudes and training have changed significantly in the past 40 years.

      • True, but not for the better. Go to policeone.com and see the blood lust in many of the police comments.

  60. On June 1, 1921, the US government bombed Greenwood, Oklahoma to ashes in the absence of any natural disaster. It is the only incident, thus far, in which the US government actually dropped a bomb in it’s citizenry…a forgotten moment in history by most…one can only speculate why.

    • Where did you see that the Govt. bombed Greenwood?

      I thought it was a white racist mob that attacked in a burning , killing frenzy because they were jealous of the success of an all black community.

      • OhioPrepper says:

        Judith,
        You are correct and I find it amazing that someone would state, “one can only speculate why” when 5 minutes in Google will tell you the entire story. Troops were brought in, but were too late to stop the whites who not only attacked the blacks, but held the fire fighters at gun point to keep them from saving any of the structures. There were less than 100 lives lost on both sides, and I don’t think any bombs were used. If people would simply do a little research, they would look a little less foolish.

        • richard Muszynski says:

          greetings. that is right, do a little research and you will find that to use a firearm in self defense against someone with a inferior weapon is not self defense. I come at you with a knife and you shoot me and kill me, that is murder in most of the states. I threaten you and you believe my threat and so shoot me before i actually did anything is also murder. your perception of intention of committing harm does not cut it. In Michigan if you shot someone, even someone shooting at you, you had to prove that they were shooting at you to kill. the bullet holes in either your or your home have to be within a lethal height from the floor to count. i could stand outside and pump hundreds of rounds into your house near ceiling level and you would not be justified in returning fire and shooting me. regardless of your perceived intent on my part.

          • richard Muszynski,
            I don’t know the law in all states but in TN if they are coming at you with a knife and are close enough to do you harm it is legal to use deadly force with a firearm (or other weapon) and with the Castle doctrine you are under no obligation flee. I would not live in a state where I could not legally defend myself.

            • greetings Richard, you are really on a role here.

              Come at me with a knife or pump hundreds of rounds into my ceiling & I’ll drop you with my Glock.

              End of your story, does anything else matter to you at that point?

            • richard Muszynski says:

              Greetings. which is why i left Michigan the laws there were really weird. for example a pocket knife could be considered a concealed weapon. you could have a Federal class 3 permit and if you purchased a automatic and registered weapon you go to prison. you needed a state pistol purchase permit to buy a black powder pistol. list goes on long way. and it was true about the bullet holes have to be within a dangerous height from the floor to be considered a attack. I didn’t make the law. just had to follow it.

          • OhioPrepper says:

            Then Richard, I’m thankful that I don’t live in Michigan. Here in Ohio and in PA, and AZ, and TX I know for sure this is the law. Perhaps you should get a little more education before spouting off on a subject you obviously know very little about. You fire in my direction at the wall or the roof and I perceive you as a lethal threat then I am justified to return fire, period. In the concealed carry classes I teach I’ve worked with numerous LEOs, attorneys including former judges and prosecutors, and this is the law here and in most jurisdictions. If the weapon you have is a knife and you’re within 21 feet and headed my direction I am also justified if I perceive you to have lethal intent, for this scenario look up read and watch the various videos on the and Tueller Drill. The web is such a convenient and easy to use tool. Perhaps you should learn to use it to verify your opinions as facts before posting.

            • richard Muszynski says:

              greetings. yes i should do that. i do not know the laws in all the states. only in the states i live in. I assume you know all of the local laws of all 50 states? amazing.

        • I’m glad I read your comment. Common sense is alive and well in a neighboring State! I feel a little better, but not that much…

  61. Clevelandrez says:

    Of course not. As long as the protester remained nonviolent. Even then, it would take law enforcement/military feeling unsafe before any engagement. Here’s the proof. Have you any idea of the rules of engagement in Iraq or Afghanistan? The provocation threshold is very high indeed. No one wants images of dead civilians, epically dead women and children on the evening news. It’s more than a little preposterous to suggest otherwise.

    • riverrider says:

      clevelandrez, i love you my friend but you have no clue. u.s police fire on citizens everyday. they don’t see us as citizens, but subjects. the military has fired on citizens many times in the past. the bonus march listed above actually ended in the veterans being machinegunned. the bombing mentioned ended in every man, woman and child squatting there being killed by bombs and machineguns. as a retired guardsman i know the thought process involved. we are told its our duty, that it will save the country etc. training and discipline kick in and orders will be followed…up to a point. that is why they plan to move local guardsmen to other areas that they have no stake in, and replace them w/ same. i thank the lord that i never had to make that call. read and study history or repeat it.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      Greetings. then you haven’t seen the video that was released by Manning that got him put in Marine torture city? how the chopper came down and opened fire on unarmed news men and civilians while laughing about how they died or tried to get away? those are the troops you say won’t do it?

      • Clevelandrez says:

        @ riverrider and richard Muszynski……….It’s always good to be ready for the unexpected. Be that as it may, IMO you guys need to take more than a big step back. Have you any idea how irresponsible you sound? You take one or two obscure incidents and think the government is after it’s “subjects”? Wow. You’ve gone from prepping to paranoid. Probably an easier migration than I had considered before. Thanks for the bad example to learn from.

        • LOL, Cleve- if you think the dotgov ISN”T after you, you better take a big step back and see how irresponsible you sound. At this stage of the game, more than a ‘little paranoia’ is certainly called for.
          In prepping for the unexpected, having to defend oneself from the dotmildotleo isn’t a cheerful thought, but then, what are we prepping for in the first place?
          Certainly we’re all paranoid- that’s sort of why we prep.
          Shy III

          • richard Muszynski says:

            greetings. i remember in the old days of my youth we used to say a little paranoia is vital to survival. you trust everything and it will get you.

            • Clevelandrez says:

              I answered the question asked. Prepping, defending, being prepared for the unexpected and survival tactics are not the same as claiming your own government is going to murder you, your wife, children and close family and friends and tens maybe hundreds of those around you for a nonviolent protest. If you want to believe that, you have more issues than I’d be willing to address in this forum.

  62. horseSergeant says:

    There are always a few that follow orders without question. Has anyone forgotten the Branch Dividian at Waco, Texas when tanks were used to insert tear gas…What about those few renegade officers in New Orleans after Hurricane Katrina that gunned down its citizens, and the officers that confiscated firearms from law abiding citizens in its aftermath… What about the sniper that shot Mrs. Weaver in Idaho, what danger did she pose?

    • richard Muszynski says:

      Greetings. that was just proof of how well trained our alphabet police are. it was a supposed FBI sniper who shot her. I was taught that a sniper could actually shoot and hit his target. so he was either a very bad sniper who couldn’t shoot worth crap or he was a homocidal nut job who liked to kill women. but not to fear he was rewarded for his kill with a promotion.

      • It was a US Marshall who shot Mrs Weaver as she stood in a doorway holding her baby. The excuse given is the shooter was aiming at Randy and he moved.
        I have some seashore in New Mexico, too.
        Shy III

        • OhioPrepper says:

          It was not a U.S. marshal. Lon Horiuchi was a U.S. FBI HRT sniper. You may blow this off as a trivial mistake, but when we don’t take a few moments to get even the simple facts correct, it brings into question all of our facts.

          • OP- thanks for the gentle reminder. I appreciate it and it reminds me also that I probably shouldn’t say anything when I’ve been drinking.
            God bless and thanks again.
            Shy III

  63. Depends on training and time line of the event. If the police/govt people feel that order will be in place after or near term, then the likelyhood would be high. If it is later in the event and it looks like stability will be a long time coming it would depend on defense.

    All police officers are equipped with deadly force and have mostly come to grips with what that means. If they draw a weapon, training is to remove the threat.

    When things get sidewise, try not to make your self into a threat.

    If things get sidewise, prepare to defend, but have a plan to escape as no standing defnese has long withstood attack. Look at all the castles in england and europe. That covers defense, but neither do you want to become a refuge if there is any other choice.

  64. Ranger Rick says:

    I’ve noticed a lot of comments “there would be a civil war” and “try not to make yourself into a threat” how can there be a civil war if your don’t make yourself into a threat?

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. to make yourself into a threat means what? the people being murdered by our troops is Afghanistan are usually unarmed and going about their own business. didn’t protect /them. why would it protect us here from those same people?

      • greetings richard. may I call you dick? you’re an idiot!

        • richard Muszynski says:

          of course you are right. i’m a idiot. are you really dense enought not to realize our troops commit war crimes on a nearly daily basis? If i’m a idiot to know that. what class are you?

        • Delta 3-2 says:

          Perhaps YOU should review the Apache Gunship murder of innocent Iraqi citizens who were unarmed and slaughter by a scumbag Apache crew !

          There is NO reason for us to be in Afghanistan or Iraq or any other country. In the meantime American citizens are being murdered on the Mexican border and your buddy obama does nothing about it.

          • OhioPrepper says:

            Whose buddy? Me hinks you’re on the wrong forum for anyone to call him buddy, unless you’re aleftist plant.

            • Roger that Ohio and this is the scary thing that leftists do. The fact that so many posts seem to agree to some degree with this tool is disturbing.

              Everybody take a deep breath and google “Lenin’s Useful Idiots”.

          • Lorenzo Poe says:

            The one Manning released? Did you see the video? or did you see the edited version released by the US ‘news’ media? Not unarmed, not civilian.
            Sheeple alert. sheeple alert! Richard and Delta didn’t get all the Hope and change they voted for! Now they’re gonna throw a tantrum right here on MD’s clean floor for all to see!

            • richard Muszynski says:

              greetings. i saw the one originally released not the censored version. which one did you watch and see the people being gunned down and the van they were in peppered with holes from the machinegunner on the chopper. and saw that they were armed? Really.

            • Lorenzo Poe says:

              Sorry, Dick, but they were armed. Definitely, without a doubt. Confirmed by photos and followed up by a ground patrol. The van was shuttling weapons and fighters from a mosque. Fact.

  65. Of course they will. They have already done so historically. For video documentation involving Generals MacArther, Eisenhower, and Patton go to DC, or to you tube and watch “the bonus army march” parts 1,2,3.
    The police in New Orleans confiscated all weapons from law abiding citizens leaving them defenseless against criminals who were armed. Have no illusions about the government, especially the current one headed by an Islamic dictator, you and yours will be persecuted, not protected!

  66. bigfootjunior says:

    First, I would like to say, Thank You y’all for all the info., on here. I’m new to the site and was introduce to it by my cousin. The reason I voted the way I did, I believe, that if push comes to shove, Uncle Sam would fire upon us. Uncle Sam, doesn’t like anyone who doesn’t conform to their way of thinking. We’re free thinkers and go against the flow, we don’t ask for hand outs.

  67. Richard J. Medicus says:

    I voted “yes, they would”.
    They’ve already proven that they would. Kent State proved that. Every day there are multiple stories of law enforcement using excessive force against their neighbors. Beatings, shooting, tasing are all a part of the current law enforcement mentality. In addition, the “justice” system sees to it that cops get away with even the most egregious offences.
    A T-shirt that I saw a couple years ago, worn by a cop, says it all: It’s me, my partner, then you. They are no longer white knights.

    • Russell says:

      There are stories of pulice using excessive force and I agree that not all are upstanding citizens, but alot of what you don’t see is the “rest of the story”, thanks to our news media. Many times officers actions are justified due to the totality of the circumstances, but are not revealed to the public by the media because it is not “newsworthy”. The media loves controversy. When is the last time you heard about an officer volunteering at a school or pulling someone from a burning car, yet these things happen daily and are much more common than what is shown in the media. I do not condone what “some” officers do, but do you destroy an entire tree because you got one bad apple? We are not all bad people and much of us believe the same as the others on this website. I know I can’t change the world, but maybe if one person looked at it differently because of what I have written, its a start.

  68. I agree with Ray and don’t forget Kent State. Most of them would do it just to keep their jobs.

  69. Depending upon the branch of government, the possibility of turning against US citizens exists. Keep in mind that there are different guidelines and protocols found within the various branches of government, be it Federal, State, or local governments. As such, there are also “for hire” services retained at the Federal, State, and local levels. As an ex Federal agent, I believe the possibility of our government turning against its citizen is certain.

  70. Annie Nonymous says:

    I find it funny that people try to shift it to a Foxaganda-esque agenda, blaming it on the current CIC, when it goes back at least through the past 4 presidents, likely more, about all this “loss of freedom”. Face it, this has been coming a long time, inflamed by the media, and the best weapon the evildoers have is pitting one group of AMERICANS against another.

    Back to the question –
    All one has to do is look at Kent State. People were sure troops wouldn’t fire on american kids – until they did. It could happen again. All it would take is some “information” that there was a huge terror ell in some neighborhood, they’d send the troops in, Americans defending their rights would of course defend themselves, and bang, there you go… all in the name of preserving freesom, and controlling the terrorists among us.

    It would make incredible ratings for the news media. Imagine how much they could charge advertizers for ad space. Sheeple would be glued to their TV’s… watching the carnage.

    I don’t think it’s a could happen, I think it’s a will happen. Because if you are a broken part of the machine they created (as an owned serf) you get removed so the machine runs smoothly. If a mechanism is causing the mahine to hiccup, then you remove the broken mechanism.

  71. In some cases such as Katrina, LA riots, Crown Heights for modern US examples, or Egypt in the last weeks, the troops or police can do a great deal of damage by not doing anything. By not responding or letting counter demonstrators or rioters beat and kill people while they look on is just as cruel as firing live rounds into crowds. I go back to what I said earlier. Either a cop is the type who sees it just as a job and he goes home afterward, or the type who gets off on hurting people their loyalty is to each other first, then their paymasters, the citizenry do not enter the equation. If they have to break heads or shoot someone in order to get home safe and collect their pay they will.
    If they have to lie or cover up another cops mistake to do so then they will.

  72. Davidus Romanus says:

    Definitely yes. Police used to (in my childhood days) use the least amount of force necessary and tried to defuse a situation without resorting to violence. I know from experience, because my brother was talked down from near violence several times by local police when he had too much to drink. Today they would just taze or shoot him since he definitely was threatening. Today, people are the enemy, and officer safety is paramount. If there was an unruly group demanding food, the police would not hesitate to resort to violence. The only situation where I can believe they wouldn’t, would be an inner city riot, where they would just cordon it off and let the place burn since none of them live there. Rest assured. The Gov’t will do everything in its power to stay in charge, and LE/Mil will help them do it if they and theirs are taken care of.

    • Davidus Romanus

      “The Gov’t will do everything in its power to stay in charge, and LE/Mil will help them do it if they and theirs are taken care of.” Well said and true in most cases…

      • Mountain Rifleman says:

        M.D., for your next survey how about asking your readers, “how will civil war II proceed?” Civil war II has already started. Should get thousands of responses.

        • richard Muszynski says:

          greetings. civil war may not be that far fetched an idea. a lot of states no longer want to be associated with what we call the united states. I come from Michigan and the Upper Peninsula there has been talking about getting out of the union for years. so have other states including Texas. it might be in the coming troubles where the government starts to shoot people to stay in power that the disenchanted states make it so. and far as i can see according to the constitution they have a perfect right to.

      • richard Muszynski says:

        Greetings. from recent times though the military is no longer assured of being taken care of by the government. funds are being cut to returning military WIA’s and those with PTSD being simply denied any help at all. vets hospitals are way overloaded with critical cases and there is no room and funds cut ? it is a tea kettle left on the fire and it ready to blow. I’m former USMC and I personally have known a lot of people who got shafted after their service. they are even gyping the survivors of service men out of their insurance . one cute way is you get wounded they chopper you to a field station that transfers you to Germany to the main hospital. if you die in the air on your way you do not get your combat life insurance but only $20,000. they say you didn’t die in combat so not entitled to the death benefit. and they con the survivors out of that. check it is not a state secret.

        • Hey D-bag! Thanks again for the misinformation. A US Soldier who chokes to death on hotdog at the County fair gets $500K to their survivors per SGLI. Unless they opted for less coverage.

          By the way, folks in America, particularly fomer Marines don’t say things like “it is a tea kettle left on the fire and it ready to blow”.

          Have you ever seen Team America? Dirka dirka Muhammad jihad! Crawl back under your rock Toolshed!

  73. Police officers would fire on US citizens. No doubt. See Watts, Katrina, etc. An officer is trained to use the threat of violence to gain obedience and the execution of violence for his safety. It is not sadism or evil (in his eyes) it is “the job”.
    U.S. troops would not be sent to their own neighborhoods or hometowns. Federal troops come form a diverse enough background that you can send the 82nd into Austin and not be concerned with soldiers having to use violence on their own families. National Guardsmen, once federalized, would be deployed across state lines to other states, just to keep them from having to make that decision.
    The typical operation would have troops entering an area, breaking into homes and businesses, meeting with local government figures and dictating the new rules. Failing compliance, they would replace the government representative for one that is more cooperative. They would only open fire in case of an assault against a known target location and only open fire against armed individuals, whether a threat or not. True, in the fog of battle, there will be mistakes, but in general, they are easy enough to rationalize.
    Yeah, I fully expect the government enforcement arms to use force.

    • Delta 3-2 says:

      Here’s the difference today…..there are many of us FED UP with the tyranny of today’s government, at all levels. People are getting to the point where we will implement the 2nd Amendment.

  74. MD,

    You sure have a great gift for producing lively topics! I love the varied opinions & some of the emotionally charged responses, thank you.

  75. For the love of God stop with the Kent State stuff! That incident was planned and provoked by the SDS. Look it up!

    Here’s a fact that ought to be pondered. U.S. Soldiers have killed more U.S. Soldiers, both purposefully and by accident, in the past century than they have Citizens…likely by a factor of 1,000 or more.

    The lesson from Kent State is that you shouldn’t align yourself with Marxists that want to start a revolution or you might get shot.

    Further, the rogue cop and soldier thing is stupid! There are rogue teachers, Preists, and Postmen for the love of Pete, etc. Now that I think about it I bet more people died in motorcycle accidents last year than were shot by the police.

    Nevermind…I give up! I live in a Country with Marxists on the one hand, sheep in the middle, and lunatics who don’t realize the overwelming majority of Cops and Soldiers are Patriots as well. We’re DOOMED! Time to go by more Spam!

    • greetings JeSter. You made me laugh out loud with you Kent State comment … again – oops, sorry if I created a upward spike in your blood pressure!

      • Greetings Steve. What a queer salutation…anyway. I’m glad you got a laugh. My BP is fine, it’s just disturbing how many uninformed folks there seem to be out there.

        My point about Kent State is not to defend the ill-disciplined actions of the Ohio National Guard. I’m simply pointing out the FACT that this was not a peaceful protest by a bunch of tree hugging hippies that were slaughtered by jack booted thugs.

        The Kent State rally was indeed organized by the SDS, whose leadership did want to incite violence that would spark a Marxist revolution (they still do if you take a minute to pay attention). In fact, my clueless buddy Dick points out this strategy as adapted by Mao a few posts below.

        Have Federal troops ever fired on US civilians? Yep…all the way back to the Whiskey Rebellion, etc, etc,etc.

        The point is that in our brief history this is the exception and not the rule. I’d further bet that most of the people who have posted on here about the fact that the US military will fire on Citizens have never left this country to see first hand what true tyranny is like. You could go to you tube and watch the women protesors who were recently gunned down.

        However, if people on here are worried about the direction of our Country taking an antagonistic attitude toward the military will only lead to a bad outcome. The radical left has the exact same talking points about the military and their end game is not a utopia of self-determination.

        The fact is that the majority of combat arms soldiers (trigger pullers not clerks and cooks) are Patriots. Could it happen? Yep. See my post way back in this thread. It could indeed happen.

        I’d just prefer to see more people support our troops than spew the same garbage as the Marxists and Anarchists.

        Like I said before, “We’re DOOMED”.

        Peace!

        • richard Muszynski says:

          There are no longer any cooks in the service. that has been taken over by Halliburton for quite a while now. and i don’t know what service you were in but in the Marines every Marine is a rifleman, including the clerks. in the Corps. (not the Army Corps of engineers but the crotch) everyone is a rifleman first and only secondly in any other specialty. Don’t know about Marine Air, i doubt they receive combat rifle training. what makes you think i am not supporting the troops by telling people how it is and how troops are being sent in to fight needless wars by other fools in the Pentagon? Your wrong and i won’t say buddy because you are definitely not one.

    • Delta 3-2 says:

      Oh….Students for a Democratic Society where the ones who pulled the triggers those Ohio Army Guardsmen were carrying eh ? How stupid of me. I guess those SDS’ers had infiltrated the ranks of the Ohio Guard.

      Something tells me you are truly a flaming fool.

      • OhioPrepper says:

        No, SDS just burned down the ROTC building, organized a bunch of young useful idiots as a mob and most likely fired precursor shots at the guardsmen to kick things off. At that point you can just sit back out of harm’s way and watch.

  76. The US Army has done a study that says only 15% of their troops will fire on fellow US residents (we are citizens of our individual states). That is why there are plans to have foreign troops (UN) to come in and take over. What sector do you live in?

    • Judy- the study I read is that 15% will not fire on fellow residents. You can google the tests if you want- or go to the backlogs of my blog and find the post there with links to the study. Concurrent studies have given the same results.
      Shy III

  77. Can anyone name a time when the state goons did not fire on civilians when ordered? The other side has Waco, etc., etc. The list is long. Can’t thin of one instance where the opposite happenned.

  78. Not to be a nitpicker, but the question is almost unfair – in that ‘police’ and ‘troops’ are such different entities. As a vet mentioned in a previous comment, we’re discussing the challenge of “controlling chaos” – a situation that our military is by far the best prepared for handling with prudence.

    In the rural area where I live, the only shots that police ever fire are either at the range or when giving mercy to broken animals. Predictions of their actions under great duress couldn’t be seriously compared to what’s expected from elite, professional American soldiers. In cities, urban SWAT teams know their turf best and would be integral to managing a crisis, but just communications equipment and surveillance technology alone make our military the obvious first frontline choice for “controlling chaos”. And police budgets have been getting crushed everywhere – not too many departments acquiring new infrared gear and helmet coms lately….

    Would ordinary cops or weekend warriors be (even a little) more likely to have a commander exercise bad judgment, than would a military team? Is our military (a lot) less likely to have a rogue shooter? An emphatic yes to both, in my opinion. Faced with real chaos, it’s only logical that better equipped, better disciplined military personnel would prosecute an event with less shots fired. My guess is that very few citizens would prefer local police to be quelling riots, if troops are available. I think it’s also safe to assume that folks in places like Los Angeles and Chicago will agree with that guess…

    Regarding the notion that today’s question might stem from a potential ‘confiscation’ issue… if personal weapons are seized, there should never be a confrontation. Any protests have zero chance of ending well. If you haven’t already buried/hidden backups and PLENTY of ammo, yer simply not paying attention.

    • Mountain Rifleman says:

      What would it take to make you dig ‘em up?

      • Mountain Rifleman,

        Good question.

        • I didn’t realize how good your question was for a few minutes. I do know: that I haven’t slept at home without a firearm since I was 17, and 56 now… over 30 yrs here on an island 10 miles offshore. So… not anticipating confiscation; yet, truly don’t know how I’d react to confiscation. I honestly hadn’t considered it. Not only a good question, a hard question. “If my family was threatened” is the easy answer.

          Thanks for making me think.

          • MOPrepper says:

            Should that time ever arrive, I do hope that you have enough of an advanced warning.

            A knock on the door at 3:00am is hardly enough warning to grab a shovel and dig them up. Perhaps you have others at the ready.

            I’m thinking now too. I’m thinking why I would bury them in the first place. I own them legally. I have a right to keep and bear them. If those rights are being infringed, then perhaps I should die free, rather than succumb to some dumb ass implementation of an unconstitutional order.

            I don’t know. Regardless of what does or doesn’t happen, my decision will be made at the last second.

            Right now, most of us are nothing more than armchair generals. The proof will be shown in our actions. A lot of people might talk about kicking butt if they were ever mugged, but then they get mugged and hand over their wallets. There’s a lot to be said when a .45 pistol is shoved in someone’s face.

  79. Some would, some wouldn’t. It depends on the situation. If it’s a riot police scenario, then yeah, bullets are going downrange. If it’s a door to door gun confiscation and arrest, then don’t expect a lot of guns to get grabbed by the local National Guard unit. So to compensate, they’ll use the 82nd Airborne to do it since they have no ties to your neighborhood and they’re “just following orders”.
    Cops, you bet they would. The few that object will either leave the situation or watch as their steroid charged buddies empty their magazines into a crowd of people exercising their Constitutional rights.
    The few cop friends that I have would defend good people, and gun their way out of a bad situation, but not into a crowd of protesters and they certainly wouldn’t open fire w/o good reason. But they’re a few in a crowd. Here’s how I gauge some cops. They want to play soldier without actually signing a contract to be deployed. They want the warzone for 8-12 hours (like it’s some kind of video game) and then go home and tell great stories of their gun battles on the streets and how they were the hero and on and on.
    But above all things remember that they have a paycheck to justify. Who pays them? That’s who they are beholden to, that’s where their loyalties lie, with few dissenters in their midst.
    What a sad state of affairs.

  80. chemman says:

    I voted they would. Many of the senior officers we consider to be the hero’s of WWII opened fire on WWI veterans protesting the failure of the Government to honor its promises to them. As to police officers it would depend on the location. In rural areas I don’t think they will since it would be opening fire on friends and loved ones. In the cities all bets are off. They mostly don’t live in the cities and therefore have no skin in the game.

  81. richard Muszynski says:

    greetings. hasn’t anyone here read up on guerilla warfare? i see a huge problem here. the active police and the military have said in this post that they would not fire on unarmed civilians unless they felt themselves personally threatened. Mao Tse Tung wrote in his little red book, he was the leader of Communist China till his death, that one of the things a guerilla needs is for the government they are against to commit crimes like murder on the people. and he advocated having communists in the crowds to be the ones to shoot at the troops or police or throw bombs at them and they would automatically feel threatened and would open fire on the civilians around them. plays directly into the communist plans. so many of the people who replied here that they would open fire if they personally felt threatened would be a perfect stooge for the ones that want to have a revolution. one guy in a crowd could throw firecrackers and set the armed government troops or police over the edge and opening fire on the women and children around them. Just like happens in Iraq and Afghanistan now. a mine goes off and the first thing the very badly trained troops do is turn the machine gun on anyone near them including women and children. rarely would the people who planted the mine there be among those standing right by it when it went off. many of the mines are set off by cell phones from a distance or by magnetic triggers or pressure switches in the road. but the troops feel threatened so kill anyone near them. and we wonder why the people there hate us? would be amazing if they didn’t. it seems our troops and police would be childs play for anyone who wanted to create a incident like that. we need professionals and not those who worry about their own selves if we want to play such games with the military and police being allowed weapons of mass destruction as they are.

    • Greetings Dick! I have an idea. Why don’t you respond when you are challenged. I responded to your historically innacurate point about me obeying unlawful orders, but you have no answer….so you just move on to the next post and comment with something equally stupid!

      P.S. The people in Muslim countries that hate us do so because we are not Muslim. If you’d educate yourself you would know this. You could start with the First Barbary War that I mentioned in my response to your drivel that you can’t seem to figure out a logical answer to.

      • OhioPrepper says:

        JeSter,
        I assume that richard already knows about the First Barbary War. In an earlier post on this topic he stated, “when i was in the Corps”. Assuming this was not the Army Corp of Engineers; the logical assumption would be the Marine Corp whose hymn is in part, “From the halls of Montezuma, to the shores of Tripoli”. That would be Tripoli Libya, home of the original Barbary Coast Pirates, where the US marines were sent in this country’s first overseas conflict to stop the piracy and looting of US merchant shipping. But then I’m sure Dick already knows this bit of Marine Corp history.

      • Delta 3-2 says:

        Hey JeStar….you think you’re such a smart guy. The Muslim in Islamic lands who hate us, hate us because we are IN THEIR COUNTRY as invaders !

        If there were Iraqi or Afghani or South Korean troops in MY country with loaded weapons, I wouldn’t have any love for them. In fact there’s a damn good chance there would be a few of those foreign troops with bullets in them.

      • richard Muszynski says:

        greetings. JeSter. i note a hint of anger in your reply. not about what i wrote but about your own twisted interpretation of history. You seem unaware that Saddam Hussain was put in power by us after a staged coup. or that the U.S. is the biggest supporter of dictators and repressive governments in the world. but that doesn’t fit your preconceived impression that they hate us because we aren’t moslems? have you ever bothered to read their holy Quoran? do you understand their religion at all? of course not. no need you already have all the answers and facts made up. note there are no Arabian or Afghani troops here in our country, but we have how many in theirs? and you don’t think that they should hate us for that? or for the arming dictators all around the world? JeSter, what kind of name is that? are you ashamed of your national origin? I’m not. why don’t you use your name as i do?

        • OhioPrepper says:

          For a former member of the USMC you certainly don’t seem to understand OPSEC. That’s why we all use a nom de plume.

    • Cheese Dick- just where do you suggest we find these ‘professional’ soldiers? And if your a$$ was in similar situations, I’m betting your a$$ is what you’d be thinking most about as well.
      Quit knocking our troops- they’re the best trained in the world. If you don’t think so, maybe you could volunteer to DOD and train them properly to your feeble standards.
      Shy III

      • Thanks brother. He’s a commie tool!

        The leftists will try to divide true Patriots. It’s the only way they win!

        Look at this stupid exercise we’ve all been involved in. Yes, our history has stains. If you read my original post I try to outline the reality of human nature of why US troops could fire on Citizens, but the fact it as of TODAY the overwelming majority of US Soldiers are as concerned about the fate of our Nation as everybody on this blog (minus commies like Dick).

  82. I have seen videos where the law enforcement instructor refers to the founding fathers as “the original domestic terrorists”. They are literally being brainwashed to believe that ANY civil disobedience or disagreement with the government is terrorism. The members of law enforcement that I have been exposed to or witnessed seem to treat the public with contempt and they appear to have an “us vs. them” mentality. I don’t believe all of them would fire, but I believe a large portion of them would.

    • Tom,
      “They are literally being brainwashed to believe that ANY civil disobedience or disagreement with the government is terrorism.” Exactly…

      • Tom, MD and all the others concerned about cops;

        I threw my hands up once, but I’ll give this one last shot.

        I acknowledge that there are bad cops. What concerns me is that many of the posts here about the cops sound eerily familiar with what people on leftist blogs say about the cops.

        I have LEOs in my family and as friends and they are more like minded about the Govt than you think.

        I’m really concerned about the numerous posts on here that show significant disdain for LEOs and Soldiers, because it has the EXACT tone of the Radical Left thatis currently trying to destroy our Nation.

        Ok, I’m out for good…off to buy Spam now.

        • richard Muszynski says:

          greetings. what radical left? still afraid of communists under your bed? what is trying to destroy our nation now is not the left or the liberals or socialists it is the extreme right, the Democrats and the Republicans. no communists in that flock.

          • OhioPrepper says:

            Richard – have you gone off your meds? There are former SDS and Weathermen in the current administration, and admitted communists who have left it in embarrassment.

      • richard Muszynski says:

        greetings. that is the law now is it not? any disagreement with any action of the government is either terrorism or treason. and under our current laws if the president or anyone high up in government decides you are a threat they can send the extermination squad of the Special Forces to terminate you without trial or arrest.

        • OhioPrepper says:

          Can you give us a verifiable example?

        • richard,

          You really need to rethink working as the WalMart greeter, it’s has infected your off hours communications.

          greetings
          greetings
          greetings
          greetings
          greetings
          greetings
          greetings ….

  83. Anna Mouse says:

    Yes, US troops would fire on American civilians, and on American soil too. Read your history it has happened before.
    Once led by Patton and Eisenhower, against veterans and their families.
    Burned down the camp the civilians were staying in, shot civilians, killed civilians. Very sad part of American history. Really changed my opinion of these two Army leaders. Just following orders.

    • That was Army Chief of Staff McArthur, Maj. Eisenhower was his aid and had no say in his commanders decissions. Additionally Cpt. Patton was on duty at Fort Benning. That being said, American troops HAVE fired on America citizens before. Starting with the whiskey rebellion (late 1790s), the bonus marchers ( which you refer to) to the internment camps of WWII. In 1989 All NCO’s were required to report to the Ed center at my post to take a survey . Several of the questions dealt with the firing on US civilians, would you or wouldn’t you, what circumstances would you, examples of scenarios where you might and might not. I noticed that several months later many of the junior NCO’s that answered in the afirmitive were recieving waivers and being sent to the board for promotion. “Fast tracked” to senior NCO positions. What do I think? I think the instant a situation turns in to a “2 way range” soldiers, and marines WILL shoot back. I don’t mention police because they need little to no provication to pull the trigger orther than “he/she didn’t do what I ( I meaning super protector of the realm police officer) instructed them to do, regardless of how conflicting the instructions were. My 2cents

  84. It would largely depend on the “targets” they’re ordered to fire upon. Because the current U.S. population is so diverse, I imagine that various individual members of military and law enforcement personnel would hold fire if personally they identify in some way with those who they are ordered to fire upon. However, because this situation involves specifics, I voted “yes” in general.

  85. colorado gal says:

    I am ex-Navy. My husband is active duty. I think it could go either way. Some may turn their backs on those giving the orders to fire on the masses or take away our guns, & some will do what they are told, no questions asked. Sheeple are everywhere….
    As for me & my family, we are prepared to hit the road & head for the country when the SHTF. Prepare for the worst, pray for the best.

  86. YES THEY WOULD!! My son is a US Marine, and his squad is war hardened and frightening. Most of them are out of the Corps, however all indications are they will kill anything that moves. Needless to say, I don’t see my son much………He’s not the same boy that left 8 yrs ago.

    • Sue… I am seriously sorry for your loss.
      And unfortunately I expect there are more parents out there who feel the same way, for good reason.
      I respect our troops and law enforcement personel but recognize that there are “bad apples” in all walks of life. They’re just more extensively trained.

      Would they fire on American citizens?..some will yes, for all the reasons mentioned so far. I believe those with the strength and conviction of their calling will know better. We can only hope they never find themselves in that position.

      • Thank you Kevin. I came to find out how far gone some of our Marines are when I went onto my son’s Facebook (he leaves it open on my computer for the very rare visit because he doesn’t have a computer). Out of curiosity, I posted a police state youtube, and the blowback was violent. Every Marine that posted back ridiculed my son (they thought he posted it) and said they did much worse in Iraq, and resisting arrest should be fought with extreme ramifications, etc etc etc. Several Marine ranted without once mentioning our Bill of Rights, etc. My ex husband was a police officer who never fired a single shot nor beat the snot out of anyone in 22 yrs on a DC suburban police force. He would never fire on the American people. The Marines are trained to kill, and the ones who have seen combat seem to think it’s like hunting season…..Time will tell. The Corps has done a mighty fine job of brainwashing these kids. However, the military in general has been screwed by the country, the school system, sheeple parents, etc……..so you reap what you sow……

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. it was the same during Vietnam. your son was altered or indoctrinated in the service then ordered to do things that his mind couldn’t condone. then when he left the service he and his fellow grunts were simply discharged and no effort was made to de or un program them from what they had been turned into. when you go into combat. you change. you do not come back the same as when you went there. and sorry to say. one is never out of the corps. might not be on active duty. but once a Marine always a Marine. it gets imprinted on your soul.

  87. Not all of them would. I am currently active army and I can definitely say I would not but a substantial number of army at least would. There are so many that just do what they are told. Others would because they are not prepared and cant afford to not get a paycheck so they will do it to feed their familys. I think any soldier or police officer that would illegally confiscate weapons deserves to be met with any repercussions the gun owner thinks is needed. I know what my response will be.

  88. Delta 3-2 says:

    I have NO doubt that American troops would fire on American citizens. Why ? Simply because their leadership will put them in the position to quell the “lawbreakers”.

    Look at Kent State. Ohio Army Guardsmen fired on unarmed citizens. Look at Waco, Texas….active Army troops helped the scumbags of the BATFE assault the Branch Davidian property (what happened to Posse Comitatus ?).

    Our government is OUT of control. Be prepared to endure increased tyranny. Be prepared to give your life for Liberty or live the rest of your lives on your knees.

    Delta 3-2

  89. To all my Kent Staters out there, read this…

    http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2010/may/4/new-light-shed-on-kent-state-killings/

    Step two do a little research on the SDS then and today. Read and listen to their own words on you tube.

    Finally, ask yourself if you are being one of Lenin’s useful idiots?

    You’re worried about tyranny!?! That is a joke, because you very well may be facilitating it. Pick up some history books and read people’s actual words, not the words where the author acts as a translator!

    • OhioPrepper says:

      JeSter,
      Now you’re going to ruin it all by confusing all these folks with the facts. I was in college in Ohio back then and had friends at Kent State. The place was in turmoil days before the incident, as this article points out.

  90. SrvivlSally says:

    I voted and still say yes, they would. What a truly fine and sincerely honest document we have been privileged to read. I believe the writer of the article was correct when they said that those who joined wanted to and therefore would also join the collective’s mentality as well at their commands’ will. I do not see how the UN troops, something that our own troops are starting to become familiar with, would not jump right in and help our Country, being that we are a fellow member of those United Nations and everything is “done for the good of the people”. If I were a commander in chief or an officer then it would not make sense for me to carry a weapon and never use it. What person in the world is going to question “why” a personnel has been trained in the usage of and has been issued a weapon. Once a gun is legally in the possession of such individuals it therefore becomes obvious that the possessor has the capability and authorized capacity to use it whenever, however and upon whomever it has been decided. Looking at foreign dictatorships many of those countries’ citizens are shot down in the streets, inside their homes, while sitting in their vehicles and so forth so whom can truly present the question as to whether or not it can or will happen in this part of the world. Sad but true it can and will happen within our land one day. All of us who are awake or are being awakened are the lucky ones because before it occurs we have the time to come to terms with our future and try to put a stop to the impending tyrrany by giving it all that we have got.

    • OhioPrepper says:

      SrvivlSally,
      You stated, “Once a gun is legally in the possession of such individuals it therefore becomes obvious that the possessor has the capability and authorized capacity to use it” So you’re one of those with the mindset that guns are only useful for killing? I carry a firearm most of the time, but I understand the rules of engagement that I must live under if I am to carry. Comparing us to any country run by a despot is a real stretch of the imagination. I haven’t noticed a dictator running the country (although he’s trying), nor do I expect it to happen.

  91. The Military will be faced with the choice of defending the Constitution or upholding tyranny and tyrannical orders. I can see our armed forces split, much like what happened in Egypt and what is currently happening in Libya.The police would most likely dissolve into the background, having to defend family against the chaos that would be happening. Be it military or the golden hoard I will defend what is mine and defend the lives of my family. Delta 3-2 sums it up perfectly in his last paragraph and I feel there are many more out there that feel exactly like Delta 3-2 and myself.

  92. Police would not fire upon civilians but i believe troops would. You need to rephrase the question. Big difference between police and military troops. Police are in the know and do not take orders from government like you would think. troops just follow orders and are not told or are lied to for reasons why. Police are civilians working against the common criminal element, not government politics. I am a Law Enforcement Officer and neither myself nor my fellow brothers would open fire upon civilians.

  93. tjbbpgobIII says:

    Just as Delta 3-2 above says look at all the places where it’s already happened. This has been done since right after the revolution, what is called “The Whiskey Rebellion”. Look at the bonus marchers after WWI, Douglas McCarther and Dwight D. Eisenhower. Posse Comitatus went by the wayside when that skinny little general that ran for president was in charge of the First Cav. Division at Fort Hood , Texas. These young troopers today recieve far less of an education than we did less than 50 years ago and just believe what their commanders tell them, after all they are all volunteers now.

  94. Well, duh. Of course they would fire on US citizens! They are trained to follow orders. They are being psychologically conditioned to kill civilians everywhere they are engaged in combat. It’s all about “the brotherhood” and unless you’re wearing the proper insignia at a given moment, you’re toast. And even if you are wearing the proper insignia you may be toast, e.g., Sgt. Pat Tillman. Current soldiers have volunteered to participate in an unconstitutional, i.e., illegal, military engagement (we won’t go into the morality of the situation) in the Middle East. Few of them seem to have a problem with that. Only the ignorant or hopelessy foolish believe they are helping the folks back home by killing Muslims (most of whom are civilians). What makes anyone think that US soldiers would behave any differently than Nazi soldiers? If you don’t think US soldiers are capable of unspeakable atrocities then I’d suggest taking a look at their behavior when they subjugated the Philippines among other immoral military operations. And the police are totally militarized and already have no problem shooting civilians for no apparent reason other than they “felt threatened”. Government is the problem, not the solution. Geez…

    • Lorenzo Poe says:

      CPL Pat Tilman was shot point blank by the guy pinned down with him. Maybe an accident, maybe not. But Ranger Tilman died with a curse on his lips for the guy who shot him. Right after he said ‘get up and shoot before I f’n kill you’!

  95. The Equalizer says:

    I have no doubt 25% or more of today’s soldiers/Marines would fire upon and/or kill U.S. citizens if ordered to do so by their C.O.’s. A survey was taken amoungst current soldiers/Marines a year or so ago that asked the same question and 25% said YES they would fire upon and/or kill fellow Americans if ordered to do so.
    During the Civil War, hundreds of Union deserters were hunted down, brought back to their units and ritually executed by firing squad or hanging in front of the rest of the unit.
    People must not be fooled that just because a soldier/Marine is “one of us” they will not show the same murderous brutality they have shown the Mooooslims, the Ay-rabs, the Viet Cong, and any other “non-American” we have decided to slaughter since the Phillipine Insurrection at the beginning of the 20th Century.

    • Mountain Rifleman says:

      20,000,000 of us, living today, have served in the armed forces.

      My great great grandfather was murdered by a uniformed Yankee patrol while he was plowing his field in Virginia. He was unarmed, trying to make the ground ready to feed his family. They murdered him to take his horse. His family watched from the farmhouse, including my great grandfather. The patrol then entered the house and took the food off the table and the meat in the smokehouse.

      Some bastards are worse than evil.

  96. Mental Matt says:

    To
    Richard Muszynski, you seem to spout out alot about facts, and laws that you really don’t know anything about. A pocket knife in Michigan is not a concealed weapon, and never has been. Maybe, if it has a 10 inch blade and depending on what county you live in, but most even a 10 inch blade would be a misdemeanor. A pocket knife with 3-6 inches or somewhere around there would be nothing. You speak about revolution, cops, feds, God knows who else, please get a life and stop listening to Alex Jones so much. There is a meltdown coming, pressure makes the man. Where will you really be?

  97. MOPrepper says:

    Do you remember the 145 million addresses which have now been cataloged with GPS coordinates, by the census workers?

    Those GPS coordinates are now indexed into “heat maps” which show population density. A few well placed bombs/missiles take out 90% of the population and the remaining citizens would pose close to zero threat.

    Reality check? Remember back in high school, when the cool kids ignored you and would treat you like dirt if you tried to talk to them?
    The Government doesn’t think that most of us are worthy of their time either.

    A lot of people get confused on this issue. It isn’t the same thing as us wondering if we would ever be able to kill our neighbor. To us, we know them. The Government and it’s drones don’t have a connection to us. There’s a significant disconnect.

    When a Senator is speaking at a dinner gathering, and the participants all paid $25,000 per plate to attend, do you ever wonder how the purpose of the dinner gets reported as “Figuring out what is good for the common man”. The common man couldn’t afford to attend such a gathering, even if they saved for 5 years or more.

    There are two classes in this country, and none of us here are in that other class. They keep us busy by further sub-dividing our class into meaningless sub-classes (rich, middle class, poor, etc) – it’s all the same thing. The “have not” class. Hell, you could be a billionaire, but if you are not involved in setting the law or creating policies, then you’d still be in our class, but you’d just be the guy with money, no power.

  98. I had to vote yes because, it is already happening. Around here a lawsuit is going on about a seven year old girl getting shot to death by police after busting thru the door. The police were being filmed so everything was caught on tape. I’m really thinking the gov. will justify everything. Just an accident, misfire by an expert, no need to get rid of that bad apple.
    I wonder what will happen under Marshall Law?

  99. taboracek says:

    I live in a country that was ruled by soviet union for 40 years, until it broke. The way it was done here was to invite then Soviet troops on the uprising in ’68 and quite a few people died.

    This situation in US is little different though, however I see a very simple way to have US troops to fire in their fellow citizens, that being take Texas NG and send it to CA to make order (and other mixing). That way the guys wouldn’t be shooting their neighbors.

    This really depends on how big the uprising would eventually be, if that’s something local contained to one or two states, the goverenment can easily supress that, but as long as you go countrywide it’s not quite easy to have the military/NG unpoluted by the revolting citizens.

  100. ChrisInGa says:

    I think the idea that we are their friends, family, and neighbors is a bit ridiculous. Most people don’t even know their neighbors. Families are so small. One might have believed such a thing a few hundred years ago. But then there was the civil war to dispel such myths.

    Americans had no issue opening up on Americans during the civil war and we were much more neighborly back then then we are today. We see the paramilitary police forces opening up on Americans daily. It might not happen in rural areas. But in the larger urban areas you can bet your bottom dollar.

  101. History Buff says:

    Kent State?

    Civil War?

    • I am old enough to remember the 1960’s also and I find it so saddening. I have been looking for the research paper the Lt Colonel at a U.S. military base did. This, I believe is where it all started and in his research for a degree he was working on, discovered that the enlisted men, More than half, said they would follow orders. It is so difficult to believe that our military would follow orders of some insane political nut that they would commit this level of murder. I believe his question was formulated in a way that it was taking our firearms away from us a the initial starting point. It is sad. So sad that I don’t like contemplating it.

  102. I voted yes on the survey because I’m old enough to remember the 1960’s vividly and saw not only the law enforcement fire on civilians, but also remember the riots and cities burning and the general meanness of the population at large.

    Today, our population has become even more jaded to violence thanks in no small part to video gaming, movies, and the media in general. That said, in many cases law enforcement would fire because they felt endangered. Meantime, keep in mind that this same law enforcement has been raised on violence as well, and also many are veterans of Iraq and Afghanistan where firing on civilians was a regular daily experience. There is little debriefing of these veterans and many will not distinguish between downtown Baghdad and downtown Detroit.
    Please understand that I don’t mean this as a slur to our veterans, who I regard as heroes for doing their duty, however, if you have ever been stopped in a random highway stop, in general the demeanor of the policeman is such that he exhibits contempt for the civilian in who’s pleasure he serves.

    • MOPrepper says:

      I think that you’ve confused Iraq and Afghanistan with Vietnam.
      As a Desert Storm vet, I can tell you that the subject of firing on civilians never came up.

      Of course, there were stories about firing on Australian troops who weren’t supposed to be in a certain location, and nobody bothered to take the time to confirm who they were.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      Greetings. might be of interest that if you check you would find that a large percentage of the police are former U.S. Marines. they actively recruit Marines at the Discharge facilitys. Marines are taught that everyone who is not one of them is a enemy. Period. when they become police they continue in the same mindset.

      • OhioPrepper says:

        richard,
        You’ve finally stated something that makes perfect sense. You are a former marine and think of everyone else as an enemy. I don’t know that this is actually USMC policy, since my former marine stepson doesn’t have this attitude; however, if you believe this, it explains a lot.

  103. Clinton in Kansas says:

    I voted yes because I worked regularly with LEO’s for 25 yrs and many of them have an “Us againest them mentality.” Also many think “everyone is a crook, they just havn’t been caught yet.” I think this better than thou attitude will make it easy for many (not all) to fire on their fellow citizen. They really don’t understand the constitution and what it means to be free anymore than the rest of our people. They are all being conditioned to this fact in their training as we speak.

  104. Theelderdragon says:
  105. Thanks for your blog MD! You and your readers provide great info/ideas on prepping.

    It has also taught me that even though all of your readers are preppers, some of them are anti-American commies. When the SHTF, remember this when encountering other preppers.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. and a whole lot of them are totally unamerican right wingers and religious fanatics who have never read a bible in their lifes.

  106. Semtex-Jes says:

    I voted with a big yes , of course yes , could there be another answer here !
    The past dictate’s the future , end of story , Read the comment’s and see how many are ready to fire back already lol , toss in those loose nut’s and the powder keg is primed and ready , IMO the government has been setting this up for some time already and are on the cusp of it right now , ie Waco , Oklahoma bombing, the towers,and the list goes on and on , you guys have listed plenty for me : ) All thing’s they were aware of before hand and let escalate…. I live in Chicago , Il …. Crooked ass city from the mayor to the meter maid , hell even some of our pastor’s seem to be on the take , But you can’t own a hand gun in this city even tho every dam criminal and his babies daddy has one to kill you with mind you , lets move south then you say out of the city…? So you go to buy your brand spanking new hand gun to find out you have to apply for a FOID card first , costs 10 buck’s and passing a federal background check , WTF , a firearms owner id : ) nice ! So you do that , send it in and hope and prey they “decide” you can own a gun , takes a month or more to get this BS ID card to you…So now you can go look at guns , remember you still can’t really “buy” a firearm anymore because now you have to wait to go through another federal background check before you can really buy that gun…All in all a two month ordeal to buy a hand gun in AMERICA : )
    Now I hear on the news our state’s attorney want’s the complete list of every firearm owner in the state ? Wonder why ? what a strange thing to request after so many years huh ? What on earth could they use a list like that for you ask ? Perhap’s it will start here in Il they already know who and where all the guns are . Maybe we will get that knock on the door by the fed’s,or perhaps they don’t knock, they just flashbang us and storm our dwelling at 3am like some drug king pin ….I dunno but I’m scared I tell ya , They used to give out list’s in Russia and Nazi Germany too…lots of those people on those list’s disappeared…..Just remember when it start’s it will be fast, and done in the name of safety and homeland security .
    Wonder when your state’s will require you to get FOID cards : ) watch out big brother is watching !

  107. Strong word of warning: GET OUT OF OVER-REGULATED STATES ASAP!

  108. richard Muszynski says:

    greetings. that is excellent advice semtex-jes. move before the door gets battered down and the people dressed in black with no identification on their uniforms and with masked faces come in to drag you and your children away. that is the way the Germans did it. once they get you don’t expect to come back either. sort of like the Aesop tale of the lion and the cave. Rabbit looked and saw many foot prints going in. but none coming out. and that is the only reason why the state wants to have the list of everyone who owns a gun. Germany did that in 1935 when they put into law the gun control laws there and that we copied in 1968. history.

  109. richard Muszynski says:

    greetings. i am surprised that the earth quake and the international help that was offered and accepted by the nation was allowed to be in the news here. we have a major event like their earth quake and our government does not allow any outside aid in and does not offer any themselves either. in Katrina people all over the nation including from here in Maine sent semi truck loads of necessary supplies to the survivors. they were stopped at the only road into town by armed troops and refused entry to deliver their donated cargo. in that same line were many people from neighboring states with bass boats volunteering to go in and rescue people, they weren’t allowed in either. and Castro offered to send desperately needed medical people and supplies in and was also refused entery. in the city they had roving gangs of mercenaries shooting people and robbing them.

  110. I voted yes. History shows us they will, more than once. Remember Katrina, Chicago in 1968, Kent State, countless incidents of police firing in less than threatening situations, and countless incidents of unwarranted Tazering that bordered on wanton torture. In the aftermath of the failure of snipers to fire when terrorists took Israeli Olympic athletes hostage, training since aims to condition soldiers and police to fire on order without thinking. I plan to assume they would.

  111. Gnasher from England says:

    In the UK we don’t even have the opportunity of defending ourselves with anything more effective than a rock, so when TSHTF, all over the world,as it surely soon will, our problems will happen when the massive redundancies cut our police force, and we get invaded by “The European Defence Force”, who will certainly fire on British demonstrators. In the US ,I suspect your government will frame a few really serious massacres, to give them the excuse to trample on your constitution and collect all registered weapons

    • 1stAmmendment says:

      Stated quite succinctly. Leave the UK if you can. I know, easy for me to say… it is hard to abandon a homeland but you might be saving yourself in the long run. Just a suggestion. It sounds like you hail from the original 13 colonies stock of freedom-loving thinkers :~). I’ve watched in horror the progression of socialism in your country as the UK citizenry has lost almost all their inalienable rights…..if not all. I have family in LE and the military (and I love ‘em) but I know without a shadow of a doubt that in their minds “we” the people are the enemy and I believe that given the command/situation they will fire upon us and feel justified in their actions. It sucks (major understatement) to think that about my own siblings but they’ve been drinking the kool-aid for a long time and their own words betray them. Be well.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. the problem here is not all our weapons are registered. none bought before 1968 were required to be registered. and many out here come from European Stock and recognized the good ole nazi gun control law when it was put in power here in 68 and have been setting aside weapons to share with others when things get close and personal. going to be a lot of people who will not be law abiding citizens as the jews were back then. old saying. better to die standing then live on your knees.

  112. They would fire on us because of who controls the military. Ever since we allowed private central banking to have a strong hold on America, well we can all see the result. Hyperinflation, man playing God by splicing genes together and calling it food. We are all rats in a maze. If we truly want change we have to rid this country of the powers that be that are above the politicians we get to vote on. Its been this nation;s struggle to keep the banksters out since the beginning. Hamilton wanted centralized banking, Aaron Burr shot him dead. Andrew Jackson went toe to toe with them and even though they tried to kill him, he succeeded in killing the bank. His last words were in fact “I killed the bank” Garfield tried to defeat the banksters, he was assassinated, as was Garfield. Then cam Woodrow Wilson who was in favor of Private Central Banking and he won the election when Teddy Roosevelt ran on a third party ticket that only existed to split the ote for that election. Last President to stand up to the Federal Reserve was JFK. He signed executive order 11110 which allowed our Treasury to print the nations money again. Well, we all know what happened to him. They control the money, the food supply and YOU! If you are reading this and have know idea what Im talking about, please do your research. We are in a police state and unless we stand united against the power that has infiltrated our government, we are in for some very rough times ahead I believe. If you want to learn a bit more, here’s something that might help put it all into perspective:
    http://www.warnthepeople.org/the-economy-and-your-food.html

    I dont like where our country is headed one bit! What will be is what We the People will allow

  113. I voted that yes they would, but I feel that the majority would make the right decision and not open fire(at least with lethal ammo) Law enforcement, in my opinion would be more likely to turn on American citizens than would most military personal. I am a huge fan of the oathkeepers and attempt to distribute their pamphlets or inform any military or law enforcement folks about that organization. many of these youngsters are being trained in urban warfare, population control, home/building breaching and clearing and could be a problem if there ever was a gun confiscation event or civilian uprising. I have faith that the majority of these people would see that the order to turn their weapons on Americans is passed down from some very sinister “authorities” and would defy the order or hopefully join with the good guys and help to tear down the almighty political machine so that we would be able to begin again. A free country, without a federal reserve, without the united nations, without even a trace of socialism.

    • richard Muszynski says:

      greetings. that would certainly be a much welcome outcome. but i think it would be well to include not a trace left of Fascism as well. Fascist government or government by the wealthy is what we have now. If the Fascist disease isn’t torn out by the roots then it would be a waste of time and eventually everything would go right back to where we are now.

  114. This a yes and no. I think it really depends on the sitution. Food riots, I would lean towards no. Radical Leftist attempting armed overthrow of government, hell yes! Overall you can not just cast a wide net on this type of question. There are just to many different situtions and factors to paint with a broad brush. Also I think the different from others above, I think that 19 year old soldier is more likely to fire on their own citizens. They are not train in dealing with citizens and if something triggers them they will respond like they are train to do “Kill”. American Law Enforcement has delt with riots and other major events over the years and you never saw LE let loose with hails of bullets on crowds of protesters. This not to say LE has not responded with Less than Lethal like tear gas or rubber bullet, the military is not trained to respond in a LE role.

    • Eightsouthman says:

      I guess you’re not old enough to remember soldiers murdering students at Ohio State or more than one political gathering(The Democratic convention in Chicago in ’68 comes to mind) where people were beaten, gassed and shot and killed simply because they gathered and had sign of protest. Now that’s a real threat as our founding fathers told us to do when we objected to what the govt. is doing. I guess you missed the ATF murdering a woman and her baby along with her 14 year old son trying to escape from them and you must not remember Waco where they covered their misdeeds by burning down the whole house along with 22 children in it and many adults. I suppose you missed the cops in New York putting over 50 rounds into an unarmed man not doing anything at all, just being on the street. You must have missed the wedding in New York where their finest shot and killed 4 members of the wedding including the groom, all unarmed Hispanic men. You missed that big show in Detroit where the local thugs with badges brought a huge entourage of talking heads and camera crews to record their letting loose on a house occupied by only a woman in her eighties and a six year old girl, both asleep and completely innocent of any crime. I could call to mind the thugs with badges and guns murdering people all over this country. I’m trying to figure out how you missed every single one of them.

  115. MajWilliamMartin says:

    I have read the CHANGED Posse Comitatus and Insurrection Act’s of 2007-8 of the Bush Era. That is WHY! All it takes is a “Conspiracy” to trigger Martial Law.
    There is a Notation in the Wikipedia of how the “Guard” can call it’s self out with out the Governors or Obamas asking as they DID. There is a FACT Too that when FEMA comes in they replace ALL State Government and Local Law Enforcement with their OWN. This is seen by how their Spokes Person is always a General in the “Armed Services”.
    I read too, Where FEMA pays NATO Troops as NATO is Funded by the CIVIL side that CIVIL side in this case is FEMA. So would Troops fire on US Citizens, YES AND NO. They may not be US TROOPS but they will damn sure be FEMA TROOPS and that is why we see so many CROSS Typed Nations inside our Borders.
    What is going to happen is a Man is going to step out to take his trash out and see one of these NATO Troops and KILL HIM and then the TRUTH will come out on how Our Country has been SOLD OUT. Woe be to the man that kills a Chinese or Russian Soldier in his Backyard while Our Government is playing MIND GAMES with the US Population.

  116. Semtex-Jes I agree with LynnS. GET OUT NOW!!!!!!!. I live in AZ. and we just past a Vermont Carry Law ( no CCW required to carry conealed). And as a resident you can walk in pick out your gun, pay and walk out armed in about 20 mins. as I done this.

  117. Hunker-Down says:

    Put yourself in the position of a soldier ordered to fire on an unknown person. What he/she does know is he has to shoot. Either shoot the civilian, or shoot the one who gave the order. If I shoot the civilian, its because I think;
    1. I have to obey the order.
    2. I don’t know the person (or mob).
    3. If I don’t shoot the person or mob might shoot me tomorrow.
    4. If I don’t shoot I may be shot by my own people.
    5. If I don’t shoot I may be branded a coward by my peers.
    6. If I don’t shoot I may be tried for treason (by government or mob rule depending on the organization I belong to).
    7. There may be some sort of reward if I wound or kill.
    If I decide to shoot the one who gave the order I just switch sides and face the same issues.
    Insanity.

  118. Sure they would, as a matter of fact, ,my son{sf} musters out the 1st. I asked him point blank what his thoughts were. The reply was a yes. Would he, no. But he said you can sure count on the ones coming out of boot camp, guess I should say basic would.
    TMJ

  119. Look at New Orleans. They took firearms from law abiding citizens at gunpoint and using excessive force. They had no business going to those peoples’ homes at all. They should have disobeyed those orders and stood against those who wanted to follow them. Where I live there are numerous instances of the Prosecutors going after contributing citizens who were protecting themselves against criminal citizens and many illegals. Self Defense, defense of property, and defense of livelihood have in effect been outlawed. There are also numerous instances of cops adopting illegal search and seizure policies, across the country. So no I would not put any faith in them. A lot of cops became cops because they like to bully people and as a group they have a poor reputation for family values which is the ultimate proof of character or lack of character. I hope for better from our military, but I wouldn’t count on it.

  120. Eightsouthman says:

    It’s a fact, not a question, yes, they will fire on U.S. citizens. It started 150 years ago when the great liar declared war on the south for the benefit of the northern bankers and their British controllers. Nothing has changed, it’s merely gotten worse. All through the twentieth century we saw police slaughter for the robber barons when people refuse to work for slave wages. We saw it even before the twentieth century.
    Right now, there are thousands of foreign troops stationed in this country who are trained in crowd control They think nothing of killing “foreigners”. For well over twenty years members of the armed services in this country have filled out questionnaires upon leaving and one of those questions was “Would you fire on the citizens of this country?”. Think about how many brainwashed people have checked “yes” to this question. I know so many young people who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan who are completely brainwashed they’d do anything they were ordered to do even though they have been treated badly since leaving the armed forces, many of whom have had bad injuries but have still not caught on. We have several battle hardened solders(the ones who answered yes)who have returned from overseas and belong to a group that’s sole purpose if “crowd control”. I know at least a couple of people who answered “no” to the question but there are much older and jaded. With soldiers from 3rd world countries stationed here for years to learn crowd control and for all the soldiers who were illegal aliens before serving in the armed forces(one of our worst ways of recruiting but an effective one since Lincoln used it to such a great extent)being guaranteed citizenship for doing so. If you checked ‘No’, you are sorely lacking in not only what has been going on in our modern army but what has happened over the last 160 years.

  121. I voted yes, because they will be led to believe that they are a different, more important, and necessary, to the survival of the New World Order.
    They will also be led to believe that their families will be provided for, because they go along with the Rothschild, Windsor, Secretary General
    of the Jesuits, and the Pope`s, Illuminati AGENDA. Christ SHEEPLE,
    wake up. A person does not have to have degrees in accounting and economics to figure out that the Federal Reserve is not Federal, neither is it accountable to anyone. QE1 & QE2 are inflationary. No goods or services involved. Inflation is a progressive word for taxation. They print dollars ( in actuality, they move decimal points)
    which is less obvious than reaching into your savings or checking account for the money. When your interest payments, and principle,consume almost all of the GDP, do like the Wiemar Republic ( Germany) . History explains what happened there, which led to the rise of Hitler. The lowering of our bond rating is going to bring about the 1st stages of an engineered collapse of the derivatives markets, the dollar and the U.S. economy. Sheeple wake up yhey shipped all the manufacturing to over here over there… Oh, wait is that American Idol coming on?? North Africa Riots, Egypt Syria, Bahrain, Libya, and Tunisia, who, what. Food and water shortages, do not worry. do you not remember Fema and Dept. homeland Security will be there for us just like after Katrina and the Gulf spill, oh yes and the Exxon Valdez,spill. When New Madrid faults or San Andreas, goes don`t worry be happy, good ol Uncle Sam will be there. I earned a C.I.B in Vietnam in 1970 with Delta Troop ( Blue Tigers) arrr 3/17 th Air Calvary. I later found out the Gulf of Tonkin were the same as the WMD of Iraq or Osama Bin Laden in Afghanistan. Pretenses to keep the sheeple asleep. What kind of legacy have we left our Childrens, grandchildren. Debt, and more debt is the result of Brenton wood 1, and the acceptance of the insane ideas of John Maynard`s Keyneses followers, which allowed the Govt. the institution of ddeficit spending. When you run anegative balance in your checking account, do you get away with it? Blah, blah, blah, I`m not sure but maybe, just maybe, a sheeple will think independently of TV programming and wake up.
    Did you ever ask yourself why they call it TV programming in the first place? Are not computers and Manchurian candidates programmable?
    research now as the 1984 police state is arriving exponentially on your doorstep each and every day. Hey just follow the money and see who gets fat while we become more and more like those concentration camp photo`s from LIFE magazine Covers of the 1950`s. I know tough to swallow. I know from experience that our Govt. is lying each and everyday to it`s citizens. In reading research look at Jesse Ventura`s new book ” ” 63 documents the govt. does not want you to read” reduces a lot of there secrecy to a size digestible by even the slower sheeple, thank you Jesse. People may also consider a reference to William Cooper`s ” Beyond a Pale Horse. I do not peddle books nor recommend them often, because I have observed that most sheeple are to programmed to read, not distracting enough but enlightening .
    well there I feel better already.

    did. They printed

  122. tjbbpgobIII says:

    I am old enough to remember National Guardsmen firing on citizens after MLK was gunned down. I also remember the fire dept. having to carry their own weapons to defend themselves with when the police were afraid to go into the areas where blacks citizens were rioting. I also remember the city of Philidelphia burning out a whole city block of black citizens because they didn’t like what they were teaching their children. I am a white man but that is no matter when a citizen of this country is being attacked by the very people who are supposed to protect them. I have already seen the oath keepers of this nation spitting on the Constitution so many times and killing so many people for really no reason. The militarization of the swat teams and regular cops is or should be very scary to all of us, with their faces masked they are nothing but terrorist look alikes and are so to many people.

  123. tjbbpgobIII says:

    Post Script; I have one more thought on this subject. There are way too many people in the world already and a big die-off is going to be necessary to lighten up the population. Already black women are aborting themselves out of the gene pool and white people went a long time ago even though we still have a majority in the country, but not for long. the Mexicans already have more population here than the blacks so we are next.

    • Not sure if you are referring to murder, eugenics, genocide, or the process of “natural” death from disaster/calamity/SHTF. Maybe you could elaborate about the ‘big die-off”?

  124. Blackwater ‘contractors’ will do the Feds’ dirty work if the population doesn’t cooperate.

  125. As may have been already stated, one of the first questions on your application for the armed services is a yes or no question of this exact nature- Would you, or wouldn’t you.

    Food for thought…

  126. Iam 52 yr,s old this year and have seen much in my own life let alone the nation as a wole that has told me that the common man is nolonger king of his castle,and its obveious too me that ower puplic servents our becoming ower public masters moore and moore everyday,can annyone doubt in this time of unsertanty that inorder to keep a good job a line solder or cop wouldent fire on a civlian if orderd to do so by a superior with the power to fire or kill him if he dosent,and the way thare traind to defend themsleves you can bet in a disater stuation the armed citazen will have guns pointed at him from law/military personel after all thay dount know the diferance bettwen you and a loter/crimanil type.God forbid this becomes a common sinario in my life time,and thouge i hope for raptuer first,i know if this sinaro comes first too aim below the waste or above the neck[too much kelvar elese ware] die game and hope for His mercy.

  127. Encourager says:

    Sadly, I voted yes. Yet I remember a story I just read about Russian soldiers who invaded a village and were ordered to kill all the people left. They lined up the people ~ mostly elderly, infirm, children and women. The soldiers briefly talked among themselves; and when the officers said “Fire!” they did…and killed the officers and soon after fled Russia.
    Would that be what happens here! But my heart says no. I am over 60; I remember Kent State. I remember what happened in the South during the Civil Rights Movement. All the fear; all the hate. Let us just remember who it is that is behind the hate and fear, and who hates all humans because we are made in God’s image. Give credit to the evil one, satan. He is the one who kills, steals and destroy and his mode of operation is fear. Let us NOT fall into his trap and hate our fellowman.

  128. disturbing how many marines in that study said they would fire on US citizens . It would be an interesting study to find out how many green berets would train US citizens to fight the govt in gorilla warfare if the need arose . I would guess the answer would be fairly high . To every ” loyalist ” ( pro govt ) soldier in a civil war , there will a ” patriot” anti tyranny element . Its one thing to tell somebody to kill somebody else’s people , but you will see desertions and conflict when they tell them to kill their own people . I have a real problem with non US citizens being in the military for that reason . Loyalty in that situation is questionable . Just 2 cents worth .

  129. After reading some of the posts , I have to say its too bad the wrong side won the civil war .

  130. Scottinkga says:

    This is way too easy to answer: Waco, Kent state & the civil war (specifically Sherman’s march to the sea which was a war crime if there ever was one!)

    So HELL YES, The police and or military will readily fire on US citizens if so ordered.